Pontiac to die on Monday

[YSSMAN]

Side Note:

Are you Aussies getting the 300 BHP (223 Kw) direct-injection V6 in the Commodore for 2010? Strangely, Pontiac announced that just days before this speculation began to happen...

 

[Jay]

It's likely but Holden hasn't made any official announcements on the upcoming 2010 VF Commodore

 

[JCE]

Its official now, I saw on my local news that GM is indeed cutting Pontiac on Monday, Screw GM, they are lazy bums that take the easy way out. I will never buy a new GM product until they rectify their mistake. Instead of legitimately trying to break out of being in the red they just assume cutting off a tiny bit of fat that they will solve all their ills. Why can't GM USA just learn from GM EU and GM AU? They are much better off. This leaves a sour taste in my mouth--more so then when they killed off the F-body.

Epic fail.

 

[YSSMAN]

Why can't GM USA just learn from GM EU and GM AU?

Not really, actually. Opel is in a heap of trouble with the unions and mounting debt, and there are a lot of serious questions over the long-term sustainability of Holden. Not to mention the strain on dependency for both divisions as developers for global vehicles, and upon themselves with the sharing of product. While both remain prominent factors in GM's overall global positioning, both could fall by the wayside if GM is forced to cut down to the most minimum of minimalist foundations.

The good news is that if Pontiac doesn't make it, chances are that as a brand, it will not be sold off to the highest bidder (think Oldsmobile here). As I said in another thread (I think?), perhaps once the market turns around and times are good again, it wouldn't take much investment from GM to polish off a few arrowheads and start selling a bit of "Excitement" through your local Buick dealer again.

 

[Paulie]

, and there are a lot of serious questions over the long-term sustainability of Holden.

Because of Australia's small market is why. Holden does very well in the Australian market.

 

[Jay]

Because of Australia's small market is why. Holden does very well in the Australian market.

Spot on.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

If they do so well there... Oh wait.

Nevermind. Same thing GM US did? Became the best, let it go to their collective head, slack off and will eventually implode.

 

[Paulie]

If they do so well there... Oh wait.

Nevermind. Same thing GM US did? Became the best, let it go to their collective head, slack off and will eventually implode.

No, 40-50yrs on top and no signs of trouble yet, still excellent products.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

GM USA was the same way until about 15 years ago

 

[Jay]

GM in the US slacked off a much earlier than 15 years ago though, eventually caught up with them and got out of control.

 

[Antti-san]

About time, I say. Pontiac has not been worthy of having the name Pontiac for a long time.

 

[C-ZETA]

GM overall is dying (thanks to some mysterious crisis known as the credit crunch). This means that for the Americans, Pontiac, Chevrolet and Cadillac (among numerous others) will die, for the UK Vauxhall will die, for the rest of Europe Opel will die and for the Aussies Holden (possibly among others) will die. And that would mean the car world would have its long awaited apocalypse finally begin.

 

[mPWRD]

On that note..... the G8 is a rebadged Commodore.

Yeah, but they don't sell the commodore in the states. I was looking at it from our point of view

 

[Peter]

They can't do that, Pontiac is their 3rd biggest company(to chevorlet and cadilac) and pontiac does good, don't cut pontiac, cut buick, oldsmobile, plymouth and the other money sucking small companies.

 

[Leonidae]

yes they can. and last good Pontiac was WS6 Trans Am.. actually, it's competing evenly with new Camaro and current Viper in terms of badass exterior.

 

[Tornado]

They can't do that, Pontiac is their 3rd biggest company(to chevorlet and cadilac) and pontiac does good, don't cut pontiac, cut buick, oldsmobile, plymouth and the other money sucking small companies.

Plymouth and Oldsmobile were cut years ago.

Hopefully, it's just false information. Killing off Pontiac & keeping Buick is nothing more than Epic Failure imo.

Fixed.

There is no reason for GM to keep GMC.

I can think of 500,000 reasons.

One word: China

Second word: Sustainability

The Buick, Chevrolet and Cadillac trifecta, for the most part fit into those well enough to keep them around no matter what. Buick is the big brand in China, Chevrolet is the major brand across the world, and Cadillac functions as the flagship in Asia and North America. Outside of the US and Canada, Pontiac and GMC mean diddly, and if Opel is in fact going buh-bye, they're going to have to rely on the three primary brands to carry the entire company on a global scale.

That means absolutely nothing, even ignoring the fact that GMC sales are higher than Buick even with China taken into account. They can completely eliminate Buick USA with absolutely no effect on Buick Asia, and an incredibly negligible effect on global GM sales overall. The only real difference is that they would have to make less Buick badges each year.

Thinking that those buyers will not convert to Chevrolet is rather silly, just as it would be to think that Chevrolet won't alter their trim levels to mimic the outgoing GMC models.

The past disagrees.

 

[somebody]

No, 40-50yrs on top and no signs of trouble yet, still excellent products.

Holden hasn't made a profit since 2004. That's a pretty good sign of trouble.

 

[Philly]

They can't do that, Pontiac is their 3rd biggest company(to chevorlet and cadilac) and pontiac does good, don't cut pontiac, cut buick, oldsmobile, plymouth and the other money sucking small companies.

Haha wut? The three biggest brands (as of March) are Chevy, GMC and Pontiac. Oldsmobile was dead years ago. And Plymouth was a Chrysler company.

One word: China

Second word: Sustainability

The Buick, Chevrolet and Cadillac trifecta, for the most part fit into those well enough to keep them around no matter what. Buick is the big brand in China, Chevrolet is the major brand across the world, and Cadillac functions as the flagship in Asia and North America. Outside of the US and Canada, Pontiac and GMC mean diddly, and if Opel is in fact going buh-bye, they're going to have to rely on the three primary brands to carry the entire company on a global scale.

Sustainability? Right now, Pontiac is selling more cars than Buick or Cadillac, therefore bringing about as much, maybe more money into the company. It is understandable that GMC and Pontiac are either redundant in the company, or don't have much in the way of a good future, but if they are working, it makes sense to keep them around. And I think with Saturn going away and Chevy putting some better quality into their cars, Pontiac would make a good sporty/cheap car brand in the company. Although, who knows. Maybe that would be better to work on later when people are buying cars again.

 

[speedemon08]

One word: China
The Buick, Chevrolet and Cadillac trifecta, for the most part fit into those well enough to keep them around no matter what. Buick is the big brand in China, Chevrolet is the major brand across the world, and Cadillac functions as the flagship in Asia and North America. Outside of the US and Canada, Pontiac and GMC mean diddly, and if Opel is in fact going buh-bye, they're going to have to rely on the three primary brands to carry the entire company on a global scale.

one of the models is a long wheel base variant of the G8: Park Avenue

WIKIPEDIA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buick_Park_Avenue

Because of Australia's small market is why. Holden does very well in the Australian market.

Spot on.

and the fact that the commodore has been the best selling car for 10 years now. almost half of the production in the year goes to overseas markets [100,000 cars]

BTW. the commodore/G8 platform is also in the 2010 camaro and we are developing the global RWD chassis as well, so holden cant sink anytime soon

Holden hasn't made a profit since 2004. That's a pretty good sign of trouble.

Really?

 

[Jay]

Holden hasn't made a profit since 2004. That's a pretty good sign of trouble.

They haven't? Holden has pretty much been selling more cars than ever (until this economic crap) or are you talking about no profit 'yet' because the cost of development of the Zeta?

 

[Paulie]

I don't really keep track of which companies are making profit and which aren't, so I can't comment on the Holden not making profit thing, but it would be wierd of they're not....

 

[YSSMAN]

They haven't? Holden has pretty much been selling more cars than ever (until this economic crap) or are you talking about no profit 'yet' because the cost of development of the Zeta?

Since 2004/2005, they have been struggling to turn a profit, or at the very least, have barely been breaking even. It isn't likely enough to dump the brand, but with their engineering team (obviously) in high demand, you can bet that GM would get a fair bit of coin for it if they ever decided to sell some, or all, of it.

 

[Jay]

Well it isn't a lack of sales if they haven't been turning profit.

 

[YSSMAN]

The thing is, sales don't necessarily mean profit. I think an argument could be made that sales, overall, for GM have been decent knowing whats going on. Problem is, legacy costs are getting in the way, well, at least in the US anyway.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but even before the "bailout" Holden received earlier, some of their work had already been subsidized by the government otherwise?

 

[Jay]

The thing is, sales don't necessarily mean profit. I think an argument could be made that sales, overall, for GM have been decent knowing whats going on. Problem is, legacy costs are getting in the way, well, at least in the US anyway.

I know sales don't necessarily mean profits, what I mean is Holden still has it's place, the market is still here for them but they have to manage better if they can't make a profit. I don't know the details but I think other factors are bringing them down if thats the case. It's not like they're giving the cars away for peanuts, we pay much more than you guys do in the US (yes, much smaller market etc)


Anyone actually got any data links to sales and profit of Holden?

 

[87chevy]

So if I get a G8 GXP how much do you think it would be worth 10-15 years from now when Pontiac is long and dead?

On a serious note this is a pretty big blow to me since I have been dead set on owning a G8 GT when I get back from overseas in 2010. This is really upsetting to me. And keeping GMC over pontiac is ridiculous because they could rebadge everything GMC makes as a Chevy and no-one would be the wiser. (although GMC has had much better looking grilles on the light duties for years).

 

[Northstar]

I don't see how they could re badge GMC's as Chevrolet since all GMC's are is re badged Chevrolet's. The only thing they could re badge into the Chevrolet lineup is the Denali line. Anyways the reason they chose to keep GMC was that it was the first truck GM produced.

 

[McLaren]

I don't see how they could re badge GMC's as Chevrolet since all GMC's are is re badged Chevrolet's. The only thing they could re badge into the Chevrolet lineup is the Denali line. Anyways the reason they chose to keep GMC was that it was the first truck GM produced.

They don't have to rebadge them as Chevy's, just morph them into the current existing lineup, offering the same luxury of the GMCs into the Chevy's.

 

[JCE]

The more and more I think about this the more I get supremely angry. I can't believe that this is what they have legitimately come up with as a path to being profitable again. I see more Pontiac saloons than Chevy on the roads around here so I knat that Pontiacs are selling.

But in the end this makes Pontiacs from 1960-1990 worth a whole bunch more doesn't it?

So if I get a G8 GXP how much do you think it would be worth 10-15 years from now when Pontiac is long and dead?

Probably need to wait 20-25 years before it might be worth some money.

They don't have to rebadge them as Chevy's, just morph them into the current existing lineup, offering the same luxury of the GMCs into the Chevy's.

Maybe just introduce the Denali as a trim level like Ford has with their King Ranch and now Platinum..?

 

[Northstar]

I think the deal with Pontiac sales it too little too late, they just recently started going back to a more performance oriented brand where as the 90's and early 00's were really just bland cars that didn't have much appeal.