Porsche accuses Nissan

[The Vanishing Boy]

-> Well, talk about refusing to lose:

When Nissan reported a 7:29 Nurburgring lap time for its hot new GT-R sports car, the news was met with much fanfare in the automotive press. But rather than accepting the incredible number at face value, Porsche executives and engineers were skeptical. So they decided to buy a standard GT-R and perform their own tests.

“It’s not clear how this time is possible,” August Achleitner Porsche’s 911 product chief told the Herald Sun newspaper. “This wonder car with 7:29 could not have been a regular series production car.”
Porsche engineers were able to achieve a lap time of 7:54 with the GT-R, which was brand new from a U.S. dealership. On the same day with the same expert driver, a 911 Turbo test car managed 7:38 and the GT2 achieved 7:34.
Mr. Achleitner said the 7:29 time might have been possible with semi-slick race tires, but Nissan claimed the GT-R used was completely ’stock.’
“The Nissan is a good car,” conceded Achleitner. “But this car is about 20 kilos heavier than the Turbo.” Achleitner said his team couldn’t understand how the GT-R could be as fast as Nissan claimed, but they now seem confident their range-topping models are at least as fast, if not faster. “This technical puzzle now fits together,” he concluded.
Will Porsche contest the Corvette ZR1’s lap time of 7:26 next? Somehow we doubt it — with 620 horsepower, this number is definitely less shocking.

Sour grapes or legitimate complaint? That's the question we're left pondering after reading that Porsche believes Nissan must have cheated to record its 7:29:03 lap time of the famed Nürburgring race circuit. Porsche claims that it had been suspicious of the Nissan's lap times, so it acquired a U.S.-spec GT-R for testing back-to-back with its own 911 Turbo and GT2. The result? The mighty Godzilla was toppled by the Teutonic German duo, with the GT-R posting times a good 25-seconds slower than Nissan's claim.

How can Porsche explain the discrepancy? "This wonder car with 7:29 could not have been a regular series production car. For us, it's not clear how this time is possible. What we can imagine with this Nissan is they used other tires," says August Achleitner, the man in charge of the 911 program. There is footage of the GT-R lapping the 'Ring at high speed, but it's taken from inside the car where the tires cannot be seen.

Considering the fact that Nissan saw fit to issue a press release commemorating the car's fast-lap, we doubt this is something that will be taken lightly. There's a big can 'o worms here, and Porsche's in the corner holding the opener.

^ I respect Porsche in the highest regard, but is this getting silly in a way that they have to dispute every car that their car was beaten?

- [R35] GT-R (did that)
- [C6] ZR1 (next?)
- [Gen.2] Viper ACR Hardcore (next?)



-> What do you think guys?

 

[Leonidae]

Sour grapes, that's what I say. Sport auto got 4 seconds faster lap than Porsche, and that was when nurb was partially wet.. But, there is one thing that is certain: by doing this, Porsche admits that Nissan indeed IS a worthy competitor to their top notch cars.

 

[JCE]

Porsche is just jealous that a Datsun spanked that [rear end]. I find it quite humorous. Its time for Porsche to step it up and drop a flat-8 in that 911.

 

[nissan tuner]

US spec? Why didn't they get the Japanese version with the dunlop runflat options?

also, Porsche is just sour

 

[Rykon Zero]

Making the car even worse, from a balance point of view. About the flat 8.

This is my imitation of Porsche.
"Hyaa! They're cheating! That's impossible! They're using F1 racing slicks! It has nothing to do with our driver!"

 

[Wolfe]

What's silly or "sour grapes" about buying a car from a dealership and seeing if it goes as fast as Nissan says? To me, that's healthy skepticism, and I greatly respect Porsche for going out and trying it rather than crying foul from the boardroom.

Of course, I'm not ready to accept without a doubt that Porsche's GT-R laptime is the real deal, either. Healthy skepticism. Anyway, at the very least this highlights the need for an independent test of the GT-R.

 

[YSSMAN]

As I recall, the GT-R managed to pull a lap time roughly three seconds faster than the old '07 Z06 in this years Car and Driver VIR "Lightning Lap." Considering that the updated (again) Z51 managed to be only five seconds behind, I have no idea what the updated Z06 would do. For that matter, there is always that ZR1 looming overhead...

I believe the only cars that topped the GT-R were the Mosler MT900S, Viper ACR, and Porsche GT2 in that test.

 

[forza2.0]

it's probably out of order for me to comment on this but...the GTR we drove on the Isle of Man felt unbelievably rapid in a straight line. We had Porsche GB's silver GT2 with us at the same time and it could not live with the Nissan for mid-range acceleration. So even if the tyres were standard (which they were) I'm not convinced the motor was producing 'only' 473bhp. But without putting it on a rolling road (which we simply didn't have time to do) there's absolutely no way of proving anything. One thing worth remembering is the GTR's torque, it does have rather a lot. I'm still not sure I believe the numbers however. And yes, we will do our best to rolling road test the first UK spec GTR we get our hands on. Best regards (and in anticipation of a whole bunch of grief from Nissan) Steve Sutcliffe

http://www.autocar.co.uk/forums/t/3341.aspx?PageIndex=2

 

[mc959]

OK, there are the GTR fans claiming the car did it, and porsche saying otherwise

So some gtr for press-release where tested on dyna with as result between 520 & 550HP
that's already a lot more then 480HP(that's already a proof of cheating)

You all know that the Gtr weight is more then 150kg then a 911 Turbo(also AWD and 480HP)

and last thing is

Gtr fans really believe this wonder car = GTR did that time on the Nurburgring, this means that you're all saying that the GTR is only 3sec slower then a ZR1 that have 161 HP more and weights 200 kg lighter!! sorry but i think Nissan is the cheater here, you all really think that's the GTR can be faster then Pagani's, Lambo's, Ferrari's and all other supercars, cause they did'nt beat only Porsche but all those other brands too!! OPEN YOUR EYES!! THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE...

 

[Leonidae]

first off, those 500+ estimates were done using 20-25% drivetrain loss, which would be correct in SUV or quattro. Second, GT-R's transmission allows it to gain speed and ground while 997TT is shifting and is off-power.. same applies to other cars with manuals or old slusboxes. third: porsche didn't use walter röhrl, their best driver. fourth: on complex track like 'ring, power and weight isn't everything. traction and stability have a meaning too.

Truths is indeed out there, it's early 90's again.. that's when R32 appeared, and that's when porsche and BMW were bawling about it so much that it got banned.

 

[Greycap]

So some gtr for press-release where tested on dyna with as result between 520 & 550HP
that's already a lot more then 480HP(that's already a proof of cheating)

Oddly enough there was also a test in which the GT-R and the 911 Turbo were dynoed back to back. The results were within a couple of bhp of each other. The link can be found in the huge GT-R thread.

You all know that the Gtr weight is more then 150kg then a 911 Turbo(also AWD and 480HP)

It also has something the Porsche doesn't, namely weight on the front wheels to help it turn and a highly advanced AWD system to make it stick to the road. Numbers aren't everything, how you use those numbers is.

you all really think that's the GTR can be faster then Pagani's, Lambo's, Ferrari's and all other supercars, cause they did'nt beat only Porsche but all those other brands too!!

Yet you immediately believe a mere Chevrolet beating all those brands. You know Chevrolets, the cars that old ladies drive.

Before someone jumps on my throat, yes that last one was sarcasm. But there's the bit of truth, the performing of the ZR1 is just as creditable as that of the GT-R.

In pretty much every single magazine test that has been done the GT-R has beaten 911 GT3's, 911 Turbos, even 911 GT2's. That's exactly what it did on the Nürburgring too. The fact that Porsche sandbagged it in their test while simultanoeusly throwing out more than ludicrous claims about the capabilities of their own cars doesn't change a thing. In other words... if the Porsches' official Nürburgring times are real (which, miraculously, nobody questions despite them being driven by factory driver Röhrl) then so is the GT-R's. We've already seen it countless times - in independent hands - that it's faster around a track. And the gap grows when the lap gets longer.

 

[forza2.0]

I was rummaging throug some old Autocar mags, when I came across an article written by Steve Sutcliffe in the 14 May '08 magazine titled "Do the times 'Ring true'. In this editorial he states:

"More than that, I've driven the latest GT-R and although it is quick with a capital F, I've also driven the new Porsche 911 GT2 (the car whose record the GT-R has supposedly just beaten) and I'm certain that - in standard tune and on factory-fit tyres - it would be quicker than the GT-R around the 'Ring. Yet Nissan is claiming to have sliced over three seconds from the GT2's time. One question: what sort of tyres was the car using when it recorded the lap? Feel free to draw your own conclusion."

http://www.autocar.co.uk/forums/t/3341.aspx?PageIndex=1

 

[Wolfe]

Perhaps this thread should also have a "zero tolerance for asshattery" warning in the title...I can see we'll be covering old ground.

Anyway, Greycap, I have no doubt that the GT-R can be faster than the 911s around many tracks. Between the whole "million horsepower" handbuilt engine thing (which we still don't have all the answers for), the transmission differences, and different corners/layouts favoring different cars, it's easy to believe.

What I personally don't find easy to believe is that the GT-R achieved the fiendishly quick 'Ring laptime Nissan claims it did. Is the "real" laptime faster than Porsche's cars? Given what we've seen so far, probably, yes. But I would like to see an independent test of the GT-R around the 'Ring, because I suspect that the genuine time lies somewhere between what Nissan and Porsche claim.

 

[Dragonistic]

So this whole Nurburgring pointless obsession is now turning into Jerry Springer?

 

[mafia_boy]

Regardless of how 'skeptical' the 'ring time was, they can't knock the fact that the GTR walked over the Porsche at Rockingham in the UK, it was faster than the 911 turbo's best on it's first flying lap!! It was over a second faster at the end of it. At Anglesey, the GTR was 0.6sec quicker than the GT2, only the Gallardo LP560-4 and the Gumpert Apollo (700hp+) were quicker than the GTR, the Lambo by 0.1!!

On 5th gear's test track, you had Bruno Senna showing the GTR being faster (on a wet track though!) by half a second and he actually describes the differences between the two cars better than anyone who's tested these cars.

If you asked me honestly, I think the Porsche driver was sandbagging the GTR. Sorry guys, that's how I feel.....the 911T is my dream car, but the R35 GTR is no joke, it's a genuine 911T killer!!

 

[daan]

http://www.autocar.co.uk/forums/t/3341.aspx?PageIndex=2

http://www.autocar.co.uk/forums/t/3341.aspx?PageIndex=1

So, Autocar is great all of a sudden?

On the other hand, the magazines you deride such as Autocar,

Pffft. Dont make me laugh. Autocar is a joke. Have you seen their issue where they try to give the illusion that they have driven the new upcoming RS5 and M3 back to back, and having a pic on the cover of the RS5 which is just their own poxy photoshop. They are a joke. My sources are not particularly found of autocar as it goes.

But it's fine if they make a point you agree with?

Go away and stop posting.

 

[forza2.0]

So, Autocar is great all of a sudden?



But it's fine if they make a point you agree with?

Go away and stop posting.

Yet again taking things out of context. Autocar is a joke when it comes to comment on cars that havent driven never mind not even exist like they did with their pretend comparo of the RS5 and M3. Plastering pictures of a RS5 as if they have seen the final product and thats what it will look like when no one but audi themselves know as of now.

But they have actually driven the GTR porsche and therefore are able to make valid points on how they drive and their performance.

Also who says I agree with them. Another assumption by a moderator. What is your stance on the GTR. Are you offended that its position is being questioned?

 

[Famine]

I've heard rumours - though obviously this should in no way be taken as fact - that, in part precipitated by the R8, GT-R and their own Cayman, Porsche intend on not continuing with any rear-engined vehicles after the next 911 generation...

Make of this what you will.

 

[forza2.0]

I've heard rumours - though obviously this should in no way be taken as fact - that, in part precipitated by the R8, GT-R and their own Cayman, Porsche intend on not continuing with any rear-engined vehicles after the next 911 generation...

Make of this what you will.

If I said this I would get flamed.....

May I share my own rumours on the 998? I have been frightned to do so.

 

[Famine]

If I said this I would get flamed...

Why? If you said "Porsche are going to cancel the 911 after the next generation anyway", you might get upbraided for it.

Presenting opinion as opinion, rumour as rumour and fact as fact is just fine. Presenting opinion or rumour as fact... Won't wash.

 

[forza2.0]

R8 V10 final figures.

V10
5204ccm
386kw/525ps @ 540Nm


Dont ask me for a source. take it as "speculative".

speculative = made up. move on nothing to see here

Still got flamed.

Anyway, I've heard rumours - though obviously this should in no way be taken as fact, the next 911 will be wider and longer, and the engine will be positioned as far infront of the rear axle as possible.... Make of this what you will.

 

[Rusty*]

first off, those 500+ estimates were done using 20-25% drivetrain loss, which would be correct in SUV or quattro. Second, GT-R's transmission allows it to gain speed and ground while 997TT is shifting and is off-power.. same applies to other cars with manuals or old slusboxes. third: porsche didn't use walter röhrl, their best driver. fourth: on complex track like 'ring, power and weight isn't everything. traction and stability have a meaning too.

Truths is indeed out there, it's early 90's again.. that's when R32 appeared, and that's when porsche and BMW were bawling about it so much that it got banned.

Yes that's right, Stability and Traction are very important on the Nurburgring. This is probably where the GT-R holds it's advantage over the other car's, also has anyone seen the rubber on the back of the ZR1...335's!!!! If they don't pull a better lap with those rolling pins then there's no hope for them lol!
Peace,
Rusty*

 

[daan]

Yet again taking things out of context. Autocar is a joke when it comes to comment on cars that havent driven never mind not even exist like they did with their pretend comparo of the RS5 and M3. Plastering pictures of a RS5 as if they have seen the final product and thats what it will look like when no one but audi themselves know as of now.

But they have actually driven the GTR porsche and therefore are able to make valid points on how they drive and their performance.

How could you be taken out of context when you didn't supply one. You just said that they were a joke. Twice.

Also who says I agree with them. Another assumption by a moderator.

Right enough. You just posted someone elses text without adding any text of your own. At least you provided a source though...

What is your stance on the GTR. Are you offended that its position is being questioned?

I don't have a position on the GTR.

 

[YSSMAN]

But I would like to see an independent test of the GT-R around the 'Ring, because I suspect that the genuine time lies somewhere between what Nissan and Porsche claim.

I thought one of the German magazines managed to pull a 7:50 (ish) in a stock car? I don't remember...

 

[Kent]

-> Well, talk about refusing to lose:



^ I respect Porsche in the highest regard, but is this getting silly in a way that they have to dispute every car that their car was beaten?

- [R35] GT-R (did that)
- [C6] ZR1 (next?)
- [Gen.2] Viper ACR Hardcore (next?)



-> What do you think guys?

Not sour grapes at all.
This seriously calls Nissan's integrity into question. Fact of the matter is, Nissan's claimed time has never been matched by an independent party. I think people need to consider that before they act like Porsche is unhappy about being beat. That's not to say Porsche's time with the GTR is the best possible but it certainly becomes one more spec of evidence to the contrary of what Nissan claims.

 

[V1P3R]

Porsche is just jealous that a Datsun spanked that [rear end]. I find it quite humorous.

It's funny at first and gets really cheezy from there.

 

[Wolfe]

I thought one of the German magazines managed to pull a 7:50 (ish) in a stock car? I don't remember...

A quick Google search didn't reveal anything for me.

Still got flamed.

Perhaps you could try something like this next time:

Speculated R8 V10 figures.

V10
5204ccm
386kw/525ps @ 540Nm


Sorry, no source. That's just what I've heard.

Something can't be "final" if it's speculation, and practically ordering people to "take it or leave it" won't help you avoid being flamed. Softening your language just a bit can do wonders.

Oh, and sarcastically regurgitating a moderator's post with your own info to childishly play the victim, as you just did here, won't win you any favors either.

 

[the Interceptor]

A quick Google search didn't reveal anything for me.

Horst von Saurma did a 7:50 in a GT-R at the end of last year on a cold, partially wet Nordschleife. It is unknown whether the car was in stock form, still, the presence of semi-slicks has to be doubted, as they wouldn't have worked better (or even worse) than standard tires in those conditions.

http://2009gtr.blogspot.com/2007/11/sport-auto-test-2009-gt-r-at.html

 

[Leonidae]

*click*

Nissan defends legitimacy of GT-R supercar's record lap time against suspicions raised by rival Porsche.

Nissan has hit back at suspicions raised by Porsche this week that the record Nurburgring lap time set by the GT-R supercar was achieved in anything other than a standard showroom-specification car.

The matter has reached top brass at Nissan, with its European spokesman at the Paris motor show today confirming the matter has gone ''quite high'' up in the company.

A senior Porsche engineer, August Achleitner, who supervises the development of all 911 sports cars, sparked controversy when he told Australian journalists at the launch of the new 911 Targa in Verona, Italy, this week that they were unable to replicate the record 7 minute 29 second lap time that Nissan claimed the GT-R set in April.

In the hands of a Porsche chassis engineer, the GT-R was 20 seconds slower than a 911 GT2 and 16 seconds slower than a Porsche 911 Turbo.

Achleitner questioned whether the GT-R was running a standard set-up on road tyres or perhaps something more track-oriented.

“Quite simply we're not going to get into a war of words with Porsche,” said Nissan's European spokesman Neil Reeve. “The final word from us is that it was done on absolutely standard tyres which are available to customers in the showroom.They're not trick tyres – absolutely standard tyres, normal road tyres.

“The GT-R comes with Bridgestone and Goodyear (Dunlop). One tyre gives slightly better times around the 'Ring.

“We did it on Dunlop. They're available with the car,” he said.

He was at a loss to explain the disparity over the lap time differences.

“I don't know, honestly I can't explain. I don't think it's for us to explain how they didn't match our time,” Mr Reeve said.

“We absolutely maintain (that) Tochio Suzuki - the chief test driver on the GT-R program pounded thousands of laps - he got to know every inch of Nurburgring (circuit) and how the car performs on the Nurburgring and hence set that fabulous lap. More than that, I can't speculate. I can't explain why they couldn't match the time.”

“We maintain that ... nothing special was done to the car.”

He conceded that the controversy might play on the minds of potential GT-R buyers. Fast lap times of the famous 21-kilometre German circuit are increasingy being used by car companies for bragging rights over performance and engineering prowess.

“The people who'd buy a GT-R or 911 Turbo are not the type of people to make a purchase like that lightly. They going to do an incredible amount of research, they're going to read every single road test that's available in every magazine which is on the internet and they're going to draw their own conclusion. Will it put doubt in their mind? They might find it surprising. In our experience in Europe, the GT-R has widely matched, at least, if not beaten, the 911 Turbo on various track tests. They can draw their own conclusions.

“We think its performance speaks for itself,'' he said.

Reeve wouldn't rule out the possibility of a rematch for the world to see.

“We're considering our options. We're not saying more than that,” he said.

“This (Porsche's questioning of Nissan's claim) happened two days ago, it was a surprising thing to read in the press, it's important.

“But let's not blow it out of all proportion. We're not crying about it. We're not going to sook about it.

“I'm cheeky enough to say it's flattering that Porsche have bought themselves a GT-R and flown it to Germany, they want to try it. I guess that's some kind of stamp of approval.

“It's great to have the competition. We're absolutely proud of the GT-R. It's a fabulous sports car, really epic.

“The level of performance that it delivers is really so impressive for the price it's positioned at,” he said.

 

[Joey D]

Shouldn't this discussion be merged with the on going GT-R thread? It's essentially the same subject matter as the same thing has been posted in there as well.