Porsche Recall

[Crispy]

I think the most funniest car stories yet have been the many "spontaneous combusting" 458's that pop up on Wreckedexotics.com every now and then. Gotta feel sorry for the owners.

 

[ShobThaBob]

No, but it proves the cars are more than capable of withstanding the high mileage as long as routine maintenance is done.

Your links are also not really agreeing in your favor. The first 2 I read said Boxsters were not unreliable & that only 5-10% of 911's experience failure. That's about the same for any major car when you take production numbers into consideration.

The other is just 1 link. Not sure how that proves your point when your other 2 disagree with it in context.

The market doesn't prove your point without knowing each car. I could show how bad the Gallardo 5.0 & 360/500 markets are right now. Doesn't mean the cars are unreliable. A few factors play into account when determining how a car is selling on the used market.

Are you implying that Ferraris are reliable? How many out of body engine jobs need to be performed by the time it reaches 50k miles? There are a few factors of course, but across the board those years of Porsche cars are worth complete and total garbage compared to the 2 and 3 years before them despite performing far better. You're either pretending to disagree or are really dense. Porsches get driven a lot. Porsche is a mass market auto manufacturer that builds a few one-offs, but in actuality, most of the cars they sell will never see a track and will be driven day to day by upper middle class people.

You can readily buy 996s for the mid teens all over the place. Ebay, autotrader, and especially enthusiast sites. It's not because they're good cars, it's because among people who know cars, they're simply not something desirable.

e - Also, read what the first article is really saying. It's a website clearly encouraging people to buy the car, but at the same time lists a large host of reasons why the engine fails and goes "but don't worry it's usually owners fault TRUST US!" The second link says plenty. "It's not that big of a problem at all, but we would certainly never buy one." Right.

 

[Stotty]

Wow, what a lot of unsubstanciated, bigoted rubbish.

The reason 993's are more expensive than 996's is supply and demand.

993's were produced in much lower numbers (particulalrly the 2S and 4S) compared to the 996 (with the exception of GT models, which still comand very high prices in the 2nd hand market).

As for unreliability, a small percentage of 996's and Boxsters suffered engine failures early in their lives. But other than radiators and coffin arms, 996's have no other specific major issues, and certainly none of an 'electronic' nature.

With regard to engine failures... 5-10%? Which is it? When percentages are quoted with that wide a range it's clear that they are just being made up on the spot.

Here is a quote from Baz Hart... Baz is the owner of Hartech, who are regarded as the place to take your 996 if you have engine problems and do most of the non-OPC engine rebuilds for 996's and Boxsters in the UK.

1997 to 2003 (the period when we saw comparatively few Boxsters and 996's and excluding them from the results) 2% of our 911 job files included a gearbox rebuild and 3.5% an engine rebuild (mostly 911sc early gearboxes and 964 engines). In the same period 1% of our 924/944/968 customers had gearbox rebuilds and 1% had engine rebuilds. Averaging it all out you find that pre-Boxster and 996 work - 1.21% of our local customers had engine rebuilds and 1.2% gearbox rebuilds. There were no scare stories resulting, no complaints to us or anyone else about the quality of the cars and as far as I am aware everyone was perfectly satisfied with the outcome.

Now this next bit is a problem statistically because while we also have local customers with Boxsters and 996's we also now receive many cars from all over the UK (particularly from the South East and London) as a result of (a) our leading edge experience and technology for fixing these engines and gearboxes and (b) because relatively fewer similar businesses rebuild them like they did the previous model types. Furthermore - some "locals" only came to us because of their engine/gearbox problem (because their own even more local garage they usually used could not offer a repair) and so equally should not be counted as "our local customers".

Of our local regular customers the only 996 engine problem we have encountered was a broken valve spring (so not actually a full engine rebuild) and the only Boxster engine problem that required a rebuild was caused by some previous work that had been done poorly elsewhere beforehand. Other local cars had a snapped timing chain (relatively easy to fix) and we have had a few that were smoking badly and condemned as knackered elsewhere that we fixed without even stripping the engines. I believe that RSJ also reported a relatively small number of failed engines recently.

As a result our records show that of our local regular customers with 996's only 0.24% have had any slight engine problems and 0.87% gearbox problems - i.e. a lower ratio than all the previous models (and we use these statistics when costing our Maintenance Plan and hence its low cost – we are not stupid!).

Although we have rebuilt a lot of engines originating Nationally, taken demographically they are still very rare and relatively infrequent and don't forget many engines (in fact the majority) that were condemned elsewhere as scrap - we subsequently found little wrong with and repaired satisfactorily - meaning that many of the disgruntled owners may have been misinformed about the actual scale of the problem by others preferring to replace an engine (or finding it more viable with their own internal high labour rates) - when if we went back a few years to previous models they would have almost always rebuilt them. This in itself greatly distorts the statistics when comparing new and older models.

It is from experiencing daily this type of feedback that I concluded that there is not a major problem that is greatly different to previous engines/gearboxes and therefore that the models concerned are not really bad (or particularly different to previous experiences) but that the number of specialists offering solutions is much lower while their labour costs have become a higher proportion of an invoice cost and that fewer places are offering to consider a rebuild and more are simply stating that a replacement is the only option - which is not true - as we have proven many times over.

I think therefore that a lot of people are confused about (and unnecessarily worried about) the true situation. Many have jumped on a bandwagon to discredit the cars (or out of sympathy for themselves or others with problems) and fight back when a more balanced view is expressed - simply because it implies they were wrong and they don't like being challenged. Ironically I don't doubt their motives are pure – if they are to help support unfortunate owners against an apparently disinterested manufacturer making a small fortune out of them and I am sorry therefore to be the one to challenge the situation as I always naturally defend underdogs and feel Porsche could do more to help - but - no amount of sympathy should discredit the models unfairly - which in turn depresses their values for owners and ironically does then a disservice.

These cars are much more powerful than their predecessors, give a better drive and overall - statistically perform well at high mileages and few experience major failures. If they do - we can help reduce rebuild costs through our engineering solutions or our Maintenance Plan, or if you can afford it a Porsche warranty will minimise the financial risks.

 

[McLaren]

Are you implying that Ferraris are reliable?

Far more than they used to be.

How many out of body engine jobs need to be performed by the time it reaches 50k miles?

I'll bet far less than you assume.

There are a few factors of course, but across the board those years of Porsche cars are worth complete and total garbage compared to the 2 and 3 years before them despite performing far better. You're either pretending to disagree or are really dense. Porsches get driven a lot. Porsche is a mass market auto manufacturer that builds a few one-offs, but in actuality, most of the cars they sell will never see a track and will be driven day to day by upper middle class people.

This is a bit ironic considering you're the one here making the argument that the 996 market is the way it is because of reliability. A lot of rubbish, imo, since the market is nowhere near as bad as you claim.

You can readily buy 996s for the mid teens all over the place. Ebay, autotrader, and especially enthusiast sites. It's not because they're good cars, it's because among people who know cars, they're simply not something desirable.

You're so full of BS with this claim. Any 996 in the teen is more than likely a problematic car. A real car person knows a good early model 996 will still sale for $30,000 w/ around 40,000-50,000 miles on the odo.

Trying to use Ebay to help support your argument is laughable at best.

e - Also, read what the first article is really saying. It's a website clearly encouraging people to buy the car, but at the same time lists a large host of reasons why the engine fails and goes "but don't worry it's usually owners fault TRUST US!" The second link says plenty. "It's not that big of a problem at all, but we would certainly never buy one." Right.

Again, fail to see how this supports your argument when both still clearly say the Boxster isn't unreliable & a small amount of 911's go through engine issues.

They're decision on whether or not to buy a car does not dictate reliability.

 

[ShobThaBob]

Far more than they used to be.

For sure. That doesn't mean reputation. That's the word I latched on to at the beginning. They have a reputation for anything but reliability.

I'll bet far less than you assume.

Any numbers? Of course, the supercar that gets driven every day is a lot more likely to be reliable than the one that gets 10k miles in 30 years.

This is a bit ironic considering you're the one here making the argument that the 996 market is the way it is because of reliability. A lot of rubbish, imo, since the market is nowhere near as bad as you claim.

5-10% quoted from an article claiming it wasn't that big of a deal. I'm saying 5-10% is a very big deal for a mass produced car.

You're so full of BS with this claim. Any 996 in the teen is more than likely a problematic car. A real car person knows a good early model 996 will still sale for $30,000 w/ around 40,000-50,000 miles on the odo.

If by good model you mean lower mileage Turbo or GT3? Sure. Your regular Carrera 2, 4, and Cabrio models are worth next to nothing, especially since conservative numbers indicate that 1 in ten might grenade the engine.

Trying to use Ebay to help support your argument is laughable at best.

If you'd like me to show you links to other forums and avenues of online car trade, I'd be more than happy to do that as well. Since I was talking about real world prices, I showed you real world prices. If you have something more than anecdotes do back up your opinions, please enlighten me.

They're decision on whether or not to buy a car does not dictate reliability.

Porsche is not a boutique automaker. 5-10% is a LOT. Couple that the biggest issues were with the 3.4 found in the cheapest models and the issue compounds even more.

 

[McLaren]

For sure. That doesn't mean reputation. That's the word I latched on to at the beginning. They have a reputation for anything but reliability.

Probably because the majority of the cars' reputation revolves around what it can do & who it's made by. Nobody brings up reliability of these cars very often.

Any numbers? Of course, the supercar that gets driven every day is a lot more likely to be reliable than the one that gets 10k miles in 30 years.

Depends on how many you think there are & what cars. Also depends on whether you consider every out-of-body job a check against its reliability as someone of these cars require the engines to be hoisted out to do some of the routine maintenance.

5-10% quoted from an article claiming it wasn't that big of a deal. I'm saying 5-10% is a very big deal for a mass produced car.

I don't believe it is, so it appears agree to disagree.

If by good model you mean lower mileage Turbo or GT3? Sure. Your regular Carrera 2, 4, and Cabrio models are worth next to nothing, especially since conservative numbers indicate that 1 in ten might grenade the engine.

Not even close. You're obviously not as informed of the 996 market as you believe. A 996 GT3 or Turbo doesn't go for the $30,000 I just posted. A 996 Carrera w/ 40-50,000 miles can be had for around $30,000. Anything underneath that figure is more than likely on the threshold of 65-70,000, which is where you might have an argument.

If you'd like me to show you links to other forums and avenues of online car trade, I'd be more than happy to do that as well. Since I was talking about real world prices, I showed you real world prices. If you have something more than anecdotes do back up your opinions, please enlighten me.

Ebay is not real world prices when you have listings that have reserves that aren't met, or the private owner who believes his car is something special.

You want an idea of what high dollar cars go for? Look at DuPont or similar magazines that revolve solely around that market. When you look through the multiple dealers selling similar cars for similar prices, you start to get an idea of what the actual market is. EBay does not; most sports cars on it do not show the prices they actually go for because nearly all the dealers have specific prices they want.

I have posted the examples on here before where a Ferrari on EBay might look like it's worth $60,000 w/ reserve not met, but on DuPont, the same dealer & the same car is actually asking for $80,000. EBay is not a good indication of the sports car market.

 

[JCE]

Thank you Stotty for posting that info and sticking up for Porsches. 911's get such a bad rep from knowledgeless web trolls that spread the vile message to any less intelligent person that will listen. As with any car routine maintenance and care while driving will be good for reliability. Not many modern cars are truly unreliable unless not taken care of and or driven the hell out of.

I'd absolutely buy a 996 911 with good maintenance and records even with 60,000 miles on the clock.

 

[ShobThaBob]

Stotty's post is even more laughable than I can begin to imagine. He pulls a random quote from a guy that owns a third party shop and prefaces the entire bit by saying he's excluding the car I'm talking about from his results and findings. But don't worry, they saw 'relatively few' of those.

1997 to 2003 (the period when we saw comparatively few Boxsters and 996's and excluding them from the results)

JCE, there are plenty of examples all over the internet at bargain bin prices. C2? C4? Cabrios? The choice is yours!

 

[McLaren]

Stotty's post is even more laughable than I can begin to imagine. He pulls a random quote from a guy that owns a third party shop and prefaces the entire bit by saying he's excluding the car I'm talking about from his results and findings. But don't worry, they saw 'relatively few' of those.

Wait, so Stotty's post isn't credible, yet yours is even though both appear be just an enthusiast website/article & not a legit shop that can give its opinion on 911 service?

This, disregarding the fact that Stotty as an owner can give a much more in-depth analysis of the 996 issues that come up, unless you have one as well....

JCE, there are plenty of examples all over the internet at bargain bin prices. C2? C4? Cabrios? The choice is yours!

Anything can be had at the bargain bin. Question is, are you that stupid enough to take the risk.

 

[ShobThaBob]

Wait, so Stotty's post isn't credible, yet yours is even though both appear be just an enthusiast website/article & not a legit shop that can give its opinion on 911 service?

This, disregarding the fact that Stotty as an owner can give a much more in-depth analysis of the 996 issues that come up, unless you have one as well....

His post isn't credible because it clearly states that they aren't talking about the cars we're talking about. Complicated, really.

Being an owner of the car is the least important factor when talking about quality of vehicles. Your immediate reaction to discussions and issues with the entire line/history is based on YOUR experience, and not the experiences with the other thousands of vehicles that were made. Being able to divorce yourself from the fact that you like your car and it has served you well goes a long way towards realizing the reality of the thousands of other cars on the road across the world.

It can go both ways. There are cars which are notoriously unreliable and those which are stalwartly defended as the most solid things on the road. In both camps there will be plenty of people who have had opposite experiences from that which is known. Extrapolating their microcosm to everyone else is just plain silly.

Anything can be had at the bargain bin. Question is, are you that stupid enough to take the risk.

A sucker is born every day!

 

[Stotty]

Hartech would have seen few 996's and Boxsters during that period because the cars were under warantee.

But not sure what difference it makes... these cars were still around after that date.

Baz quote engine/transmission stats for non-996/Boxsters, and then compares them with stats for 996/Boxsters that are under their care at a later stage... and the data is favorable for the later cars.

I repeat.... Hartech are one of the 2 or 3 most respected Posche Indys in the UK... Baz's opinions are highly respected amongst the Porsche community.

 

[ShobThaBob]

It pays to cater to those who pay the bills. Ironically, that's what one of the articles I posted was doing as well - trying to minimize the perceived state of those cars since the only people likely reading those articles are future or current owners.

 

[Stotty]

That quote is from a Porsche owners forum... has no positive or negative effect on non Porsche owners.

 

[ShobThaBob]

That's exactly what I meant by

the only people likely reading those articles are future or current owners.

Personally, I spend a long time researching cars before I buy them. I own a car that can regularly have lots of issues with everything from the front suspension to interior stitching. A lot of enthusiasts will read forums to know what they're getting into before making the decision to buy a used high-end sports car.