Post Modernism

[Biggles]

Dotini is too shy & retiring to post this himself, but here it is. This may relieve some of the pressure on other threads.

As it happens, the writer Tom Wolfe passed away yesterday. His writings critiquing Modernist architecture - From Bauhaus to Our House" - & Modernist art - "The Painted Word" may be a bit dated now, as is his magnum opus "The Bonfire of the Vanities", but they offer witty & scathing social commentary on the "elites" that is still relevant.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Aliens.

 

[Liquid]

Explain what post-modernism is and if necessary what modernism is.

To me it all seems to be some pseudo-intellectual centripedal spinning machine where critiques of anything and everything 'conventional' are placed and thrown against the wall.

 

[Dotini]

My friend Harvey says postmodernism began as a movement in the field of architecture, though it has spread to other arts, literature, criticism and philosophy. My city has many examples of it, but it is found worldwide. There is no reason for GTP members to be interested in postmodernism, although automobile body styles have been affected it.

Postmodernism
A general and wide-ranging term which is applied to literature, art, philosophy, architecture, fiction, and cultural and literary criticism, among others. Postmodernism is largely a reaction to the assumed certainty of scientific, or objective, efforts to explain reality. In essence, it stems from a recognition that reality is not simply mirrored in human understanding of it, but rather, is constructed as the mind tries to understand its own particular and personal reality. For this reason, postmodernism is highly skeptical of explanations which claim to be valid for all groups, cultures, traditions, or races, and instead focuses on the relative truths of each person. In the postmodern understanding, interpretation is everything; reality only comes into being through our interpretations of what the world means to us individually. Postmodernism relies on concrete experience over abstract principles, knowing always that the outcome of one's own experience will necessarily be fallible and relative, rather than certain and universal.

Postmodernism is "post" because it is denies the existence of any ultimate principles, and it lacks the optimism of there being a scientific, philosophical, or religious truth which will explain everything for everybody - a characterisitic of the so-called "modern" mind. The paradox of the postmodern position is that, in placing all principles under the scrutiny of its skepticism, it must realize that even its own principles are not beyond questioning. As the philospher Richard Tarnas states, postmodernism "cannot on its own principles ultimately justify itself any more than can the various metaphysical overviews against which the postmodern mind has defined itself."

Museum of pop culture in Seattle

 

[Liquid]

Well I recognise the twisty house of Prag there.

So postmodernist architecture is something current but avant garde or 'whacky'? Like the Guggenheim Museum of Bilbao?

 

[Johnnypenso]

My friend Harvey says postmodernism began as a movement in the field of architecture, though it has spread to other arts, literature, criticism and philosophy. My city has many examples of it, but it is found worldwide. There is no reason for GTP members to be interested in postmodernism, although automobile body styles have been affected it.



Museum of pop culture in Seattle

Was the building on the left in a fire? How did it melt like that?

 

[Dotini]

Guggenheim Museum of Bilbao. Melted in a fire? Crashed UFO? No! Designed this way on purpose by purported genius.
[URL='https://www.culturalweekly.com/frank-gehry-first-true-post-modernist-architect/'][/URL]

 

[zzz_pt]

So postmodernist architecture is something current but avant garde or 'whacky'? Like the Guggenheim Museum of Bilbao?

So postmodernism can, at least in architecture, hold itself up.


/isnertnotbadmemehere

 

[TexRex]

Was the building on the left in a fire? How did it melt like that?

Surely...surely...this is sarcasm. I'm going to operate on the assumption that it is, and give it a "heh." Oh hell, I'll string two together.

And I'm not calling you Shirley.

 

[Imari]

There is no reason for GTP members to be interested in postmodernism, although automobile body styles have been affected it.

There's no reason for GTP members to be interested in gun laws or Israeli/Palestinian politics either, but we still talk about it in this section of the forum.

Are you actually trying to belittle a thread on your favourite topic?

Postmodernism is "post" because it is denies the existence of any ultimate principles, and it lacks the optimism of there being a scientific, philosophical, or religious truth which will explain everything for everybody - a characterisitic of the so-called "modern" mind. The paradox of the postmodern position is that, in placing all principles under the scrutiny of its skepticism, it must realize that even its own principles are not beyond questioning. As the philospher Richard Tarnas states, postmodernism "cannot on its own principles ultimately justify itself any more than can the various metaphysical overviews against which the postmodern mind has defined itself."

TBH, post-modernism strikes me as meta-agnosticism. It's a generalisation of the "nothing can be known about God" concept to basically everything.

As far as architecture it seems like it's going for experience over functionality. Which is kind of amusing because there's a bare minimum of functionality that's required to even be called architecture. So actually, a good post-modern structure is a well designed functional structure very cleverly designed to appear otherwise.

 

[TexRex]

Are you actually trying to belittle a thread on your favourite topic?

Would that not be the postmodern thing to do?

 

[Dotini]

There's no reason for GTP members to be interested in gun laws or Israeli/Palestinian politics either, but we still talk about it in this section of the forum.

Are you actually trying to belittle a thread on your favourite topic?

Thank you for your remarks and question.

Firstly, I do not think postmodernism, philosophically speaking, is a good fit for GTP'ers, since we tend to be oriented to car racing, which is very much a reality sport. I'm a retired racer and kart builder, so I know engineers and drivers depend greatly upon reason, rationality and objectivity, which are the very things postmodernism denies. I would tend to denounce postmodernism as pernicious and dangerous if it weren't for the fact that it helps us understand some of the apparent absurdities in the modern world.

Secondly, postmodernism is not at all my favorite subject. Fencing and phenomenology are much higher on my list of interests. But fencing is unknown to almost all GTP'ers, and phenomenology (for instance, the UFO phenomena) seems totally anathema. But once again, postmodernism is a means of approaching the absurdity of the phenomena.

Finally, I expect that as time goes by and GTP'ers fully understand postmodernism, they will reject it, at least philosophically. But perhaps other aspects of postmodernism will appeal to members, such as the architecture, and possibly the automotive styling of Harley Earl, a noted postmodern car designer for General Motors show cars of the 50's. My cousin Karl has a 1936 Buick among his collection.

 

[SestoScudo]

I dont get the post modernist architecture argument that people complain. Its just one of those evolution in the history of architecture. Architecture does not stay the same it changes due to time.

 

[Imari]

Finally, I expect that as time goes by and GTP'ers fully understand postmodernism, they will reject it, at least philosophically. But perhaps other aspects of postmodernism will appeal to members, such as the architecture, and possibly the automotive styling of Harley Earl, a noted postmodern car designer for General Motors show cars of the 50's. My cousin Karl has a 1936 Buick among his collection.

I think you're wrong. Of the Vision GT cars, which do you think would be the best embodiments of the concepts of post-modern design? Some VGTs tend to look like prototypes for cars that could actually be made, and some are basically designers throwing scientific and engineering principles to the wind and designing something that looks or feels awesome. That latter seems very post-modern to me, and those cars are typically among the most popular.

On the other hand, that Buick above looks like a pretty bog standard idea of mainline car design at it's time. Perhaps there's extravagance going on inside, or maybe it's powered by duck farts with a kaleidoscope driven whirlygig, but I don't see what's post-modern at all about it.

I would tend to denounce postmodernism as pernicious and dangerous if it weren't for the fact that it helps us understand some of the apparent absurdities in the modern world.

Pernicious and dangerous? How so? It seems like a useful line of thinking, even if only to teach people why the concept of an objective shared universe is helpful. There are certainly places where it doesn't belong or is detrimental, but that's true of just about everything.

 

[photonrider]

Was the building on the left in a fire? How did it melt like that?

It was a Stormtroopers helmet. We crushed the bastards in the future and brought that trophy back to the present as a sculpture of the Prefuture. Or Postpast. Something.

Neopresent?

 

[Liquid]

Okay, I can accept postmodernist or postmodernism as a quality or adjective applied to architecture but when it is applied to sociology or politics or all the other things it seems to be lumped in with, those big circle jerks where you want to seem clever but dismissive (in my opinion), what does it mean then?

 

[Mr Tree]

I think post modernism (filosophy) is a very intersting thought experiment. Where it fails imo is when it's used to deconstruct scientific ideas due to the you can never be certain principal. No we can't but acting as if we can't know is not helpfull at all while accepting certain thing on basis of inductive reasoning is helpfull.

I still have a lot to learn about filosophy so please correct me where I'm wrong or misstating things!

 

[Dotini]

Okay, I can accept postmodernist or postmodernism as a quality or adjective applied to architecture but when it is applied to sociology or politics or all the other things it seems to be lumped in with, those big circle jerks where you want to seem clever but dismissive (in my opinion), what does it mean then?

The bottom line on postmodernism is that it gives everyone license to have their own reality, their own facts, their own truths. Reason, rationality, and objectivity are denied and replaced with subjectivity and relativism. Postmodernism makes it impossible for a people to have the same shared, consensus reality, the same standards, values and morality. It divides people and causes conflict. Your identity beomes malleable, inchoate, dare I say "Liquid"!

 

[Johnnypenso]

I dont get the post modernist architecture argument that people complain. Its just one of those evolution in the history of architecture. Architecture does not stay the same it changes due to time.

One man's "architecture" is another man's crap. Esthetically much of it looks like random crap people made up just the for shock value...IMO anyway. I don't think I'm alone in that thinking though.

 

[SestoScudo]

One man's "architecture" is another man's crap. Esthetically much of it looks like random crap people made up just the for shock value...IMO anyway. I don't think I'm alone in that thinking though.

Not all of modern architecture is crap. I can argue gothic like buildings look like crap and depressing.

Even if post modern day architecture may not look good for the eye. Architecture evolves it does not stay the same.

 

[TexRex]

Not all of modern architecture is crap. I can argue gothic like buildings look like crap and depressing.

Even if post modern day architecture may not look good for the eye. Architecture evolves it does not stay the same.

Be careful confusing "modern" with "the present," as the former designates a movement in prevailing artistic style and the latter refers to the period of time that we currently occupy.

With regards to architecture, this graphic ought to help:

The Guggenheim in Spain is more emblematic of deconstructivism, but that itself drew on postmodern themes.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Not all of modern architecture is crap. I can argue gothic like buildings look like crap and depressing.

Even if post modern day architecture may not look good for the eye. Architecture evolves it does not stay the same.

That's probably why I said "much of it" and not all of it. You can argue anything you like, it's all opinion based anyway.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

As far as architecture goes, I think of Robert Venturi & Michael Graves when I think of PoMo more than Gehry. Gehry (and contemporaries like Eric Owen Moss, Tom Mayne, Daniel Libeskind, and others) is more interested in form making than any kind of intellectual commentary, which is what the PoMoists were attempting to do.

The term modernism (as a design "style") is thrown around a lot as a means to express "contemporary" and I think that speaks to how powerful the modernist movement was. More universally, I would still argue that we are firmly in the "epoch" of modernism. The obsession with the next big thing is a thoroughly modernist sentiment, but it has become so far embedded in our cultural ethos that I don't think people can even really imagine an environment where newness & novelty are not valued to such a high degree...but that was basically the world before the industrial revolution.

Post modernism is just window dressing on modernism, a little tickle along the way, but we truly operate in a "modern" world in it's original and truest sense.

I'm not really sure what I'm adding to this thread.

 

[homeforsummer]

Postmodernism makes it impossible for a people to have the same shared, consensus reality, the same standards, values and morality.

That makes me wonder whether it even really applies to architecture then. The standards and values of a building are fairly constant, whether you're looking at a Bauhaus box or one of Frank Gehry's weird twists of metal. They all have enclosed spaces, all remain upright to some degree, they all have some means of entrance - they're functionally very similar at a very basic level and must therefore meet the same standards.

I've stayed in one of the latter - the Hotel Marques de Riscal in northern Spain (pictured above). Its standards and values are the same as any other hotel - people can sleep and eat there in return for a monetary transaction. The same can presumably be said for any other postmodern building in relation to its peers, even if their form might slightly impede on their function in certain cases (unusually-shaped rooms etc).

People are of course free to think postmodernism and all it covers is hideous (I've never really minded Gehry's buildings, personally) but I think it makes the argument about consensus and relativity moot too. There is rarely consensus in aesthetic matters (as car enthusiasts on the internet we should all be painfully aware of this) and as such aesthetics will always be relative.

Design at its most basic must always be functional so there's less room for deviation from consensus there, but then none of the postmodern buildings above aren't functional.

 

[TexRex]

That makes me wonder whether it even really applies to architecture then.

I don't believe it applies to artistic expression, merely that it coincides in time period with the supposed way of thinking and behaving.

Really, I think of the "movement" as much ado about nothing, from pseudo-intellectuals who don't like how some people are behaving, "some are doing it so all must be doing it and a product of it, and I don't like it" if you will.​

 

[Dotini]

That makes me wonder whether it even really applies to architecture then. .

If you would take the trouble to refer to the context of my reply to @Liquid, which you quoted, you would see that it indeed never did apply to architecture.

 

[UKMikey]

Does saying "one man's [x] is another man's [y]" a lot count as postmodernism? It seems like a pretty relativist POV to me, but not in the Einsteinian sense.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Does saying "one man's [x] is another man's [y]" a lot count as postmodernism? It seems like a pretty relativist POV to me, but not in the Einsteinian sense.

Only if post-modernism began in the 17th century.

 

[Dotini]

Only if post-modernism began in the 17th century.

Alternatively, the adage could have originated from the Greek poet and Epicurean philosopher, Lucretius, who said in `De Rerum Natura': `What is food to one person may be bitter poison to others.'

 

[UKMikey]

Alternatively, the adage could have originated from the Greek poet and Epicurean philosopher, Lucretius, who said in `De Rerum Natura': `What is food to one person may be bitter poison to others.'

Lucretius? A mere johnny-come-lately.

Mahavira (599-527 BC), the 24th Tirthankara of Jainism, developed an early philosophy regarding relativism and subjectivism known as Anekantavada. Hindu religion has no theological difficulties in accepting degrees of truth in other religions. A Rig Vedic hymn states that "Truth is One, though the sages tell it variously." (Ékam sat vipra bahudā vadanti)

It looks like relativist thought has been around a long, long time before people started slapping this trendy postmodernism title all over it.