Power gauges on settings

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totzke8
Hen you detune a car and apply that setting the graph with the HP and RPM on the sides and the horsepower line turns down ward about 3/4 of the way through the chart is that point where i should shift?
 
I'd shift right till the end of the tachometer.

Because the power is constant; it should also be at its peak and isn't decreasing. Therefore there is no need to shift earlier.
 
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But manual gives you more precision. With automatic say your car flicks down to low a gear in a tight corner you may "bog down" and lose time revving back up. Also every click of your gears is a millisecond wasted. I with manual can get quicker laps now, for instance at Le Mans in the Ford Mk IV I can use the same gear all the way around the Porsche Curves by using manual to limit the car, if it switched own and went bakc up I lose time through the engine stutter.
 
It's not a straightforward answer tbh as power is torque x revs and it's torque that turns the wheels. therefore, if you have a massive dip in the torque curve at a certain revs then it's better to change (Especially on heavier cars or steep circuits) but if the torque curve is only levelling off or falling slowly, then often it's better right to the redline. it really is a "how long is a piece of string" type question i'm afraid. and in the absence of a dyno and lots of telemetry, the only way is to suck it and see.
 
You're better off shifting at the redline as Furinkazen explained. 👍
 
i had a car (can't remember which one) that was producing about 180bhp with a midrange turbo but only 150bhp with the max turbo. With the midrange one it wouldn't even get to the redline in anything but 1st gear but was still quicker round some circuits that suited close ratios to keep it at peak torque.
Therefore, whilst i agree that in many cases it's better to redline it it isn't always the best (or fastest) way
 
It's not a straightforward answer tbh as power is torque x revs and it's torque that turns the wheels. therefore, if you have a massive dip in the torque curve at a certain revs then it's better to change (Especially on heavier cars or steep circuits) but if the torque curve is only levelling off or falling slowly, then often it's better right to the redline. it really is a "how long is a piece of string" type question i'm afraid. and in the absence of a dyno and lots of telemetry, the only way is to suck it and see.

Again its not as simple as that either, as torque at the wheels is equal to engine torque multiplied by the gear ratio and then by the final drive ratio it could still be greater in a lower gear despite the fall from the torque curve.

As you say you would need to look at all the factors, including the gear ratios and final drive ratio alongside the torque curve.

The following is lengthy but well worth a read on the subject

Ford and ex-General Motors powertrain engineer, Ed Lansinger, wrote one of the finest papers I have read on this subject. The paper in question is reproduced below, please note that it was originally written for a Dodge Neon website and also includes a number of additional comments at the bottom.

Torque vs. Power – Author Ed Lansinger

First, a clarification: torque is no more real than power. The DOHC puts out 133 ft-lb of ground pounding torque, but I've seen some older Neons that are leaking torque and you have to avoid driving behind them because the torque, once leaked, is slippery. Don't bother picking it up and adding it to your engine as it degrades quickly and will take you out of Stock class. Consider torque and power as concepts used to describe how things interact to produce movement and how "energy" (another concept) is transferred.

Both torque and power can be observed "directly". Think of slowing a freespinning tire with your hand. Feel the tug on your palm and the tension in your arm? That's a measure of torque, the torque the tire experiences as a result of your palm slowing it down. Feel the heat build up from friction? That's a measure of power.

Incidentally, water brake dynamometers get a direct measurement of power by measuring the increase in the temperature of water flowing past a propeller spun by the engine under test. You can solve for torque if you know engine RPM.


Maximum Acceleration vs Torque


I'd like to think that torque is an intuitively easier concept to understand. If that were true, though, then more people would understand the relationship between torque, horsepower, and vehicle acceleration. In reality, none of it is intuitive. If it were, Newton wouldn't be considered the Really Great Guy that he is.

The classic mistake is to conclude that the fastest way down, let's say, a ¼ mile drag strip is to keep the engine RPM at the torque peak (or as close as possible). The technique is usually stated as "shift just after the torque peak", or "shift N RPM above the torque peak so you are N RPM below the torque peak in the next gear when you finish the shift". Unfortunately, *engine* torque does not tell you the full story. What matters is the torque *delivered to the tires*, including the effects of the transmission.

We all know a car does not accelerate as hard in second gear at peak torque RPM as it does in first gear. The transmission amplifies or multiplies the torque coming from the engine by a factor equal to the gear ratio. So to determine how much the car is accelerating at a particular instant, you have to know both the torque output of the engine as well as the gear ratio.

To figure out your shift points knowing only torque, generate tables of transmission output torque vs. RPM for each gear. To get transmission output torque, multiply the engine torque by the gear ratio. You are simply comparing gear to gear, so the final drive ratio can be ignored. You may also need to know the relationship between RPM in one gear and RPM in another gear (which is RPM * (gear2ratio/gear1ratio) at any particular vehicle speed.) Then it's easy to see what shift points to choose to maximize your transmission output torque at all times.

Here's an example for the 1999 Neon DOHC engine with a five-speed manual transmission. Before you flame, understand that I do not have an accurate torque curve for this motor. I'm estimating visually from the curve printed in the 1999 brochure, which is seriously flawed (it makes a lot more sense if the torque curve is shifted to the right 1000 RPM). I get:

Engine Transmission output torque (ft-lb):
RPM Torque (ft-lb)
1st (3.54)/2nd (2.13)/3rd (1.36)/4th (1.03)/5th (0.72)

1,000 50 177 107 68 52 36
1,500 65 230 138 88 67 47
2,000 80 283 170 109 82 58
2,500 92 326 196 125 95 66
3,000 104 368 222 141 107 75
3,500 114 404 243 155 117 82
4,000 120 425 256 163 124 86
4,500 125 443 266 170 129 90
5,000 130 460 277 177 134 94
5,500 133 471 283 181 137 96
6,000 130 460 277 177 134 94
6,500 122 432 260 166 126 88
7,000 110 389 234 150 113 79

(note: peak torque is at 5500 RPM, peak horsepower is at 6500 RPM)

Without graphing, there's something immediately apparent: in any gear, at 7000 RPM, the transmission torque output is always higher than at any RPM in the next gear up. What this means is, for this car:

* Shift at the redline, not at the torque peak!

Walk through an example. You're hammering down the track in 1st gear. Engine RPM is 6000, just past the engine's torque peak. Do you shift? Well, if you do, the engine will be pulled down to 3600 RPM, and 2nd gear will send 246 ft-lb of torque to the wheels (actually, to the differential first, which amplifies the torque by a constant factor and sends it to the wheels). Don't you think it would be better to hold it in first gear? Torque is dropping off, but it's still 389 ft-lb at 7000 RPM, right before the 7200 RPM redline. So, for this powertrain, first gear is *always* the best deal for acceleration, at any speed, except that you can't accelerate past the redline. The 1-2 shift at 7200 RPM pulls the engine down to 4400 RPM, where 2nd will deliver 265 ft-lb of torque. Not only did you win by maintaining the high torque of 1st all the way to 7200 RPM, you are now better off in second gear. Same thing goes for the 2-3 shift. 2nd gear output torque at the redline is still greater than 3rd gear output torque at any engine speed, so you wind her out as far as she'll go before you shift to 3rd. Same for the 3-4, same for the 4-5.

But, you ask, isn't your acceleration greatest at the torque peak? Yes, it is! But only within that gear. The next gear down will give you even greater acceleration at the same speed, unless the vehicle speed is too high for that gear.

To use engine torque to understand how your car performs, you MUST include the effects of the transmission.


Maximum Acceleration Vs. Power
OK, so what about power? As has been noted by a previous contributor, Power (hp) = Torque (ft-lb) * RPM / 5252. Note that power is also force * velocity, specifically:


Power (hp) = Force (lb) * Velocity (MPH) / 374
That's net horsepower, which is engine power minus losses like transmission and tire friction. The force is the sum of the longitudinal forces at the contact patches of the two driven tires.

Hmmm... P = F * V ...rearrange to get F = P / V ... that means that you get the maximum force pushing the car if you maximize your *Power* at any given velocity. This gives us another useful rule: * Shift to maximize engine POWER, not engine torque!

This is *exactly* the same as saying "shift to maximize transmission output torque". But it's a little easier to apply. Here's how. Using the torque information above, I get the following power curve:

RPM HP
1000 10
1500 19
2000 30
2500 44
3000 59
3500 76
4000 91
4500 107
5000 124
5500 139 (peak torque)
6000 149
6500 151 (peak power)
7000 147


The tires don't see quite these numbers due to [friction and aerodynamic] losses, but I'm going to assume that the losses are comparable from gear to gear and that the overall shape of the power curve remains the same.

Applying the maximum power rule, we'd like to race down the 1/4 mile with the engine always as close to 6500 RPM as possible. If we had a continuously variable transmission, the lowest E.T. would be achieved by keeping the engine dead on 6500 RPM. 5500 is not the best; at any vehicle speed, the engine would put out more torque but the transmission will have a less advantageous gear ratio, so you get a net loss of force to the tires. Apply P = F * V or P = T * RPM to prove this.

Since the Neon doesn't have a CVT, we have to shift. The shift points are pretty easy to determine. In fact, you don't really need to know anything about the gear ratios of the different gears, which is why power is sometimes easier to understand than torque. I'm going to assume that the DOHC puts out at least 145 horsepower at the redline (7200 RPM). Shifting at the redline in each gear should drag the engine down as follows: shift RPM drop Horsepower change
- ----- ---------- ------------------

1->2 7200->4700 145->114
2->3 7200->4600 145->110
3->4 7200->5500 145->139
4->5 7200->5000 145->124

(I derived this, but all you really need to do is drive the car, shift, and find out where the motor lands) Note - and this is important - the transmission does not amplify power. Power in = power out, minus losses (which are low for a manual transmission). This is predicted by the law of conservation of energy. Is 7200 the correct shift point? It would *not* be the correct shift point if the engine was making more power in the new gear than the old gear. That would mean that you should have shifted earlier. But in this case, the power output at redline is always greater than the power output after the shift. So it's the best performance you can get.

A more rigorous way of doing this is to graph horsepower vs. velocity in each of the gears. If power in one gear drops below the horsepower of the next gear at a particular MPH, then that MPH is where you should shift, otherwise shift at the redline. I leave as an exercise for the reader the following: predicting shift points based on engine torque, RPM, and gear ratio gives the same results as predicting shift points based on power and vehicle velocity.

Scaff
 
true Scaff which is why a torque curve drop off is normally more detremental on heavier cars and hillier circuits as proportionally the drop off is the same whatever the gear ratio.
The bit i don't get is the bit about neon "leaking" torque unless i'm reading it wrong due to tired eyes syndrome
 
true Scaff which is why a torque curve drop off is normally more detremental on heavier cars and hillier circuits as proportionally the drop off is the same whatever the gear ratio.
The bit i don't get is the bit about neon "leaking" torque unless i'm reading it wrong due to tired eyes syndrome

The last bit is simply tongue in cheek as torque is so commonly misunderstood and ignored over power.
 
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