Power Loss Over the Series

  • Thread starter Thread starter FRR35H
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Tommy_861
The engine overhaul feature is useful over time as-is. The problem with engines like this is that they are not reliable over the long haul, you'd put that car in say the Tsukuba 4 hours and in real life theres not a chance in hell the engine would last over a 4 hour endurance race. Not only that if you want to be realistic you'd be spending a fortune to maintain a car worth 30k credits. Part of the appeal to people over the 1.5m credit race cars is to get nearly as much horsepower for 1/4 the price, but if you want to be realistic the reliability won't be there and the overall costs reaches way up there.

In the end its potaTo/potAto, but my feeling is the likelihood of 1000hp GTOs running endurance races in real life, is pretty low.
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I've never heard anyone say PotAto, or tomAto. It's like an urban myth of sorts.
 
Maybe they realized that most cars that have been modified to have 800+ horsepower tend to be pure dyno-queens, or have no practical application on any racetrack aside from a drag strip, since they need massive drag radial tyres to have any hope of putting the power down. Not to mention that these cars use humongous turbochargers which take forever to spool up and then make all of their power in a giant lump 1000rpm from redline. Needless to say, a car tuned for this sort of power would be hopelessly useless on a road course, and would easily be beaten by cars which make power across the entire rev range and can actually turn and stop.
 
sumbrownkid
I've never heard anyone say PotAto, or tomAto. It's like an urban myth of sorts.
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LOL, come to NY, you will hear it every different way you can imagine!

stefanOst
Maybe they realized that most cars that have been modified to have 800+ horsepower tend to be pure dyno-queens, or have no practical application on any racetrack aside from a drag strip, since they need massive drag radial tyres to have any hope of putting the power down. Not to mention that these cars use humongous turbochargers which take forever to spool up and then make all of their power in a giant lump 1000rpm from redline. Needless to say, a car tuned for this sort of power would be hopelessly useless on a road course, and would easily be beaten by cars which make power across the entire rev range and can actually turn and stop.
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Exactly right. Many of these high horsepower cars IRL have had everything down to their suspension geometry and mounting points altered to handle the power. And theres a reason (aside from not fitting within most sanctioning regulations) they aren't out setting record 'ring times with them.
 
The tuning in this game is more realistic, but far from what you can really do to a car. Most cars can go over 1000HP if the owner is willing to spend so much, shame it's limited in GT5.
 
If the ridiculous HP numbers come back then they need too add catastrophic engine failures to the game along with the possibility of a "Did Not Finish". I'd also think that you'd have to use the engine over hual or a purchase new engine and also be required to repurchase all stages of engine tune also since it's a top to bottom rebuild.
 
The question is...

Would a 1000hp skyline actually be anything but a skyline body shell + other parts.

And would blow up after 1 lap of the ring. If you want high HP, you would have to take into consideration engine wear/rebuilds. Which are not really mapped in any GT game.

Sega GT had it. But when your turbo blew up and you have no money to repair. It was a right faf to 'grind' it back on.

Could you imagine you entered a 24 hour race and after 23 hours the engine blew? You'd probably need a new tv.
 
FRR35H
Yes, but that's not the point.
The point is that there are power figures that can easily be achieved in RL with cars that are in GT5
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Any man that will put the words "easily achieved power figures" directed at numbers like 1000hp from 2.5-3L engines has never actually built such a machine. Because 15-20 people out of the 6 billion on earth have managed it and have uploaded videos to youtube doesnt make it easy, or realistically acheivable. Sure it can be done. After going through about 8 or 9 completely built blocks and starting from scatch every time you melt a piston or throw a rod until you get the combination and balance of everything just perfect. It gets very expensive very quickly to build an extremely unreliable but impressive motor. If GT5 modelled engine damage correctly I would be right behind you saying "we should be able to make 1300rwhp supras because GAS built one" but GT5 doesnt model engine damage in a way that could simulate such a motor grenading itself after its 4th or 5th lap around a relatively tame circut like tsukuba.
 
It's quite rare to find cars with insane HP number and tuned well enough to drive around courses, GT5 should have had a drag strip so you speed junkies could have your fix, they would also add in engine failure and well you'd be rebuilding the engine quite often...I can see that getting incredibly annoying very quickly.

It's probably going to be added somewhere along the line, but building such engines takes as many have said complete engine rebuilding, bore and stroke increases, heck you would have to build it out of special materials in order to carry the loads you want to exhibit on it. Not sure why anyone would want to drive a car with such ridiculous hp amounts, try driving those LMP's with no aids on, your hp monsters would be 10x worse in the handling department and with more power.
 
Savage Evil:
you remind me something: bore and stroke increase!

I was always slightly pissed that you could bore a RB26 but not a 2JZ back in 2001 when only Jun was boring 2JZ but I could not find a single trace of a displacement increase on a RB... (is it clear i'm a supra guy?)

I want bore and stroke increase back!

but that mod is missing, as are the brakes upgrade. I'm thinking brakes might be increased already, proportionnaly with power upgrades (?)
we got the balance controller for free!
 
GDII
I think it would be hard to getting a game to be as tuneable as IRL. With turbo engines you can get a lot of power out of any given engine but how long will it last running that much power? Yes the GTO in the OP should be pushing out closer to 800-900hp but for some engines that might not work too well.

Take the Suzuki Escudo, it has 1000hp+ from a 2.5 V6. Even though it is a race car, that is a mad amount of power to get from an engine that size.
When you look at the power curve it is very steep and has a small RPM range of peak power. This is not the best setup for track cars as getting power out of corners is much harder than if you have a flatter power curve. People who have driven this car will know what I mean. Putting big turbos on engines to get big power causes this power curve to occurre.

If you look at GT4s Original turbo upgrade you could get almost the same power as a stage 3/4? turbo upgrade but it would push the power and torque curves down the RPM to get better usable power.

It is possible to get big power but at the cost of engine reliability (something not modeled in GT5(or is it? not used the damage system much to see if I would melt a piston or throw a rod through the block and kill my engine.))and being good for track driving instead of drag racing.

Also power depends on the engine timing, boost pressure, fuel type, engine components and fuel maps.

In the end it's a game and made for many people of different understandings of tuning. I have a basic to moderate understanding of engine and suspension tuning but not enough to know exactly what to do with each engine.

I like the GT series because when you tune your car you can see/feel the difference. Sometimes you can make your car worse than what it was.
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Um, in GT2 it said the Escudo had two 2.5 V-6's (For a believable 981hp).... why is there only one in GT5? (one that makes 1050hp+)
 
WhitePhoenix
Savage Evil:
you remind me something: bore and stroke increase!

I was always slightly pissed that you could bore a RB26 but not a 2JZ back in 2001 when only Jun was boring 2JZ but I could not find a single trace of a displacement increase on a RB... (is it clear i'm a supra guy?)

I want bore and stroke increase back!

but that mod is missing, as are the brakes upgrade. I'm thinking brakes might be increased already, proportionnaly with power upgrades (?)
we got the balance controller for free!
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I think that they opted to remove brake upgrades as well, brake fade isn't adequately represented in the game, adding bigger or expensive brakes in real life is to combat brake fade, it doesn't help your car stop faster. Other games are creating and artificial constant in this regard. How do they come up with accurate braking distances when you put on better brakes? Your car will stop the same distance it was stopping on OEM disc/shoe as opposed to carbon ceramic disc/shoe setup. It's repeated stops that the carbon ceramics and high performance brakes will show their worth, and for the life of me no game even has brake fade added to the equation. They all have the seem to just say that your car handles better and braking magically gets better(which is a lie), unless you are driving a super lightweight open wheeler that weight saving you get is completely negligible.

Here's hoping they have that added some day, boy oh boy this will produce some interesting results and for those 20 lap races, even more things to think about when you drive the wheels off your car. I'm thoroughly enjoying the tire wear thing as guys who drive hard have to pit in races where I would not at all. So I welcome some more variables to the mix :D
 
true about brake, that's probably why they removed, why put a modification that affect only stuff not represented by the physics...

i'm not sure if it was clear, but I don't really care about the brake upgrade anyway, I was just trying to open some eyes about the "feasability" of a 1000 horses on a 3 liter turbo.

I know too well that my budget won't permit me to get that high.
 
I gave up expecting more than a cursory attempt at realistic modded power figures from Kaz a long time ago. There are Ford GT, Vipers, Supras, Gallardos in real life that are pushing near 2000hp to the WHEELS not crank. Some like the Viper and Ford GT have eclipsed 2000hp. To saddle the likes of Vipers, Ford GT even Supras with a measily 1000 hp is sad IMHO. There are many many 1200hp or more Vipers, Gallardos and Supras on the streets. Just look up names like UGR, Heffner, Titan Motorsports, American Racing Technology (A.R.T.), RSI etc. So many out there it's common knowledge that GT5 is not close to capturing the full potential of these street tuned cars. Btw some of those 1200+hp cars are daily drivers with a good bit of milage on them.
 
Snakebitten
I gave up expecting more than a cursory attempt at realistic modded power figures from Kaz a long time ago. There are Ford GT, Vipers, Supras, Gallardos in real life that are pushing near 2000hp to the WHEELS not crank. Some like the Viper and Ford GT have eclipsed 2000hp. To saddle the likes of Vipers, Ford GT even Supras with a measily 1000 hp is sad IMHO. There are many many 1200hp or more Vipers, Gallardos and Supras on the streets. Just look up names like UGR, Heffner, Titan Motorsports, American Racing Technology (A.R.T.), RSI etc. So many out there it's common knowledge that GT5 is not close to capturing the full potential of these street tuned cars. Btw some of those 1200+hp cars are daily drivers with a good bit of milage on them.
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Have you even read the discussion in this thread at all? Have you driven a 1000HP car?? Theres nothing measly about it.

Theres a reason none of these 2000 HP tuner cars are out setting track records, they are not feasible for a road race track. And if you want to be truly realistic, the rigors of 1 lap hard on the ring would probably blow them to pieces.
 
Tommy_861
Sorry but I just had to call out this statement. Theres probably only 2 or 3 GTO/300GTs on the planet with anywhere near 1000HP, and getting them there was nowhere near easy.

The upgrades even in GT5 get to be tremendously unrealistic, but they are there, and they aren't as unrealistic as they were.
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I can probably point out more. I own a GTO. Im a fan of GTO's. Trust me theres more than 3.

VcRpPT94
Damn, i remember my old GTO in gt1 with almost 900 hp it was a beast :D

When i saw the GTO on the used car dealer i bought it right away, only to be disapointed..

The same goes with the NSX, you can only have 400'ish from that car but it has so much potencial!
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Another good example! I bought an NSX the other day to mod to take on a GTR and was dissapointed big time with the 400HP limit.

stefanOst
Maybe they realized that most cars that have been modified to have 800+ horsepower tend to be pure dyno-queens, or have no practical application on any racetrack aside from a drag strip, since they need massive drag radial tyres to have any hope of putting the power down. Not to mention that these cars use humongous turbochargers which take forever to spool up and then make all of their power in a giant lump 1000rpm from redline. Needless to say, a car tuned for this sort of power would be hopelessly useless on a road course, and would easily be beaten by cars which make power across the entire rev range and can actually turn and stop.
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The car I linked to, the Pit Road M GTO, IS a track car. It's not impossible for a car to have 800+hp and NOT be just a Dyno Queen.

JaiAE86
The tuning in this game is more realistic, but far from what you can really do to a car. Most cars can go over 1000HP if the owner is willing to spend so much, shame it's limited in GT5.
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Thank you!

defaultoasis
...I thought this thread is gonna talk about something like car's power decay throughout a championship event...:D
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You were wrong :D
 
r0llinlacs
Um, in GT2 it said the Escudo had two 2.5 V-6's (For a believable 981hp).... why is there only one in GT5? (one that makes 1050hp+)
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The Escudo has only ever had one twin turbo V6, mid-mounted.

The Cultus, on the other hand, had two supercharged 4-cylinder engines. That only produced 780 bhp though - still "swift" :dopey:
 
sumbrownkid
I've never heard anyone say PotAto, or tomAto. It's like an urban myth of sorts.
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In the UK we say TomAto but not PotAto (no British colony says that).

On topic:

I guess it's just how the designers wanted things; they don't want you going silly with the upgrades as it might ruin their difficulty curve or where cars should be in the pecking order.
 
GDII
Take the Suzuki Escudo, it has 1000hp+ from a 2.5 V6. Even though it is a race car, that is a mad amount of power to get from an engine that size.
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Have you read about the kind of power they used to get out of 1.5 litre turbo F1 engines (in qualifying, though, where the engine didn't have to last full race distance)? I mean that's a full litre less but they still got 1,000+bhp out of them!

It's a shame we can't get silly power out of street cars, that would be quite a lot of fun, I mean 800bhp from a GT-R is ok, but I would love to see 1,000+ coming from, say, an R34 GT-R.

Didn't the X540 Chaser used to be able to get up to 1,000+? Now the best I've got is 666bhp.

Edit: Actually, I just remembered about the Speed 12, that kind of makes up for a lot, even if I'm 2bhp short of 1,000.
 
FRR35H
I can probably point out more. I own a GTO. Im a fan of GTO's. Trust me theres more than 3.
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I am sure theres more than 2 or 3, but my point was there is a tremendously small amount. In the US for example probably less of a chance of seeing that than seeing a Koenigsigg on the road. Also using the word easy, and building a 1000hp car in the same sentence should never happen. Theres nothing easy about building it, and keeping it together is another story.

The other thing is look at these 2000 HP cars. Nobody is running them on road courses, the guys with the high HP Lamborghinis at least here use them for top speed runs. The cars would be worthless on a road course, there is such a thing as too much power, and the game doesn't allow for the level of suspension and tire modification to be able to handle it.

Hell the bone stock Veryon is a pretty crappy car in this game in reality, It doesn't handle well. Or try out the Cerebra Speed 12, 1000 HP tuned and impossible to control. Now double that HP and watch what happens. Its hard enough for people to control the X2010 without flying off the track and that thing has a vacuum to suck it to the road and only 1500 hp!

Everyone complains about the fantasyland of the X2010, well to be able to go to the tuner shop, turn your viper into a 2000 HP one and actually be able to drive it on any track in this game but maybe SSR7 (and even thats a stretch) is fantasyland.
 
Tommy_861
I am sure theres more than 2 or 3, but my point was there is a tremendously small amount. In the US for example probably less of a chance of seeing that than seeing a Koenigsigg on the road. Also using the word easy, and building a 1000hp car in the same sentence should never happen. Theres nothing easy about building it, and keeping it together is another story.

The other thing is look at these 2000 HP cars. Nobody is running them on road courses, the guys with the high HP Lamborghinis at least here use them for top speed runs. The cars would be worthless on a road course, there is such a thing as too much power, and the game doesn't allow for the level of suspension and tire modification to be able to handle it.

Hell the bone stock Veryon is a pretty crappy car in this game in reality, It doesn't handle well. Or try out the Cerebra Speed 12, 1000 HP tuned and impossible to control. Now double that HP and watch what happens. Its hard enough for people to control the X2010 without flying off the track and that thing has a vacuum to suck it to the road and only 1500 hp!

Everyone complains about the fantasyland of the X2010, well to be able to go to the tuner shop, turn your viper into a 2000 HP one and actually be able to drive it on any track in this game but maybe SSR7 (and even thats a stretch) is fantasyland.
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Saying "easy" may be a stretch, but it's definately possible. In GT5, it can definately be implemented like in the old GT's so I can't see why. It's not Fantasyland, because people HAVE done it. This is the reason hybriding is so popular in the older GT's. You can litterally re-create just about any car you like. It does after a while get quite boring racing against the same type of cars with the same power figures. With a bit of variety on the cards, the game will become alot more challenging.
The GTR Spec V for example, is one HARD car to beat in a drag/circuit race when it's fully modded (im talking full modded street car V GTR spec V though some race cars suffer the same fate too). My best mate always kills me in whatever car I use. The only car I have managed to beat him with is a fully tuned SV Mucielago.
In RL, there would be plenty cars that could take on the GTR with a wild tuning. It's a shame it can't be replicated that's all.
 
Tommy_861
Have you even read the discussion in this thread at all? Have you driven a 1000HP car?? Theres nothing measly about it.

Theres a reason none of these 2000 HP tuner cars are out setting track records, they are not feasible for a road race track. And if you want to be truly realistic, the rigors of 1 lap hard on the ring would probably blow them to pieces.
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Yes I read the thread, and yes I still would like to see hp reflect RL. "Measily" compared to what they actually make in real life is obviously what I was refering to hence me giving the real life numbers duh. And while you are being Captain Realistic I highly doubt most of the cars in the game that are tuned to the gills would last very long on a road race in real life, but whoa yet here they are in GT5 doing 1000's of laps without breaking:sly: Its a GAME that simulates some parts of RL so it would be nice if it really reflected what a lot of these cars are capable of is what Im saying.

There are fans of both circuit track and drag racing that play this game Captain hence my post. I lean more to the circuit track racing but as an drag racing fan and a guy with quite a few passes, in much slower cars however, I liked the ability to run a ridiculous HP monster flat out just to get that rush and then watch the replay . I liked GT4 for that and the Test Track. There are a few of these 1500+ monsters that also circuit track the cars dude. Boost controller is your friend. Much lower boost for track use and full tilt for Mile-1/4 races. What so wrong with that:)

BTW there are 1500-2000hp cars setting records in the Florida and Texas Mile events.
 
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speaking of "easy" high BHP engines, just take a look at smreperformance.com they have various big and small block V8's ranging from 800bhp to their beast which is 2500bhp. they are called race engines, there are oval race engines too of course :P haha!!

but you have to remember as well talking of the X2010. it weighs sweet bugger all. stick a 1500bhp engine into a Supra which weighs in at 1.5tons and you'll realise that it will be hard to control, but it's not a lightweight machine so it will still have grip with the weight behind it. and as for the brakes thing. bigger brakes DO stop your vehicle faster. I upgraded the brakes on my motorbike from 290mm to 310mm add in 4 extra brake pistons and it goes from taking bloody ages and a lot of butt clenching to stop t0o being able to use two fingers and stop in seconds.

bigger brakes stop quicker. just like bigger more powerful engines go quicker.
 
Tommy_861
...

Hell the bone stock Veryon is a pretty crappy car in this game in reality, It doesn't handle well. Or try out the Cerebra Speed 12, 1000 HP tuned and impossible to control. ...
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Veyron handles crap huh? So thats why it is 3 seconds off the top of the Top Gear Lap board?

Speed 12 is impossible for you to control maybe, lol. You probably think the Zonda R is pretty crappy too huh.
 
actually in the game and in forza as well to be honest. the veyron does seem to handle a bit like a 250mph tank. the stig must be talented!! because I cant find it that easy to drive :-/
 
sketch424
actually in the game and in forza as well to be honest. the veyron does seem to handle a bit like a 250mph tank. the stig must be talented!! because I cant find it that easy to drive :-/
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I don't disagree, maybe it is modeled wrong by PD, or maybe we suck and as you so eloquently put it: stig must be tallented.

Its just the original argument made me lol.
 

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