PP oddities.

  • Thread starter Thread starter Rudenut
  • 40 comments
  • 2,393 views
Rudenut

Rudenut

Premium
Messages
573
United States
Atl, GA
Messages
SaintFu-
So I have been setting up a number of cars for 450 pp class races online and I see some issues. The merc 190 evo at 279 hp and 1115 kg has the same pp as the iroc concept at 255 hp and over 100kilo more. Both are fr and only about 5years apart. The performance is notably differant as well.

Also, it seems mr cars, especially nsx have too few pp asigned for their performance.

This is frustrating....I know the nsx op issue is well known...but it seems americam.cars in general are being discriminated against.
 
RocZX
But the PP is not just HP and weight there is more to it.
Click to expand...

I understand that...which is why I stated mr cars should be weighted more for that balance. I also pointed out that the two cars are both mr and of similar era. The car with more hp/less weight outperforms, dramatically, the iroc.....What, then, does the iroc have that warrants the extra pp.
 
Rudenut
I understand that...which is why I stated mr cars should be weighted more for that balance. I also pointed out that the two cars are both mr and of similar era. The car with more hp/less weight outperforms, dramatically, the iroc.....What, then, does the iroc have that warrants the extra pp.
Click to expand...

What is the weight distribution of the cars?
 
RocZX
What is the weight distribution of the cars?
Click to expand...

This among other things figure into PP, if I'm not mistaken. Aerodynamics do. I don't think the IROC has much in the way of aero, but the 190 does(depending on whic one you're using).
 
The Iroc probably has at least 100 more lb ft of torque.




As for why the Mercedes walks the Camaro, that probably has to do with the suspension on the Camaro being crap stock.
 
GTlondoner
The iroc has a more aerodynamic body shape
Click to expand...

Fine...the evo appears to have more downforce. Also, the evo is much faster all other things equal. So better aero does not trump 20 hp and 100 kilo....so the pp is still wrong.
 
Toronado
As for why the Mercedes walks the Camaro, that probably has to do with the suspension on the Camaro being crap stock.
Click to expand...

:lol: So right. That highlights why most American cars are "discriminated" against. The suspensions are usually rubbish.
 
RocZX
What is the weight distribution of the cars?
Click to expand...

Both are 55/45 and are modified with all tran,drive,and suspension. No engine mods other than bolt ons.

If the "whatever" part is crap on a car shouldn't that reflect in the pp...thus my point still stands.

PP is supposed to equalize cars for skill based competition. There are so many nsx driven in all class ranges for a reason...pp does not reflect balance and is therfore useless.
 
NSXs are driven in all class ranges because NSXs handle well stock. The PP system does not take stuff like suspension settings into consideration because it can't, so it should only ever be used as a guide for your cars rather than an ironclad truth.
 
Yeah..the iroc has 130 some odd more torque. The performance is still aweful. Evo beats it in a line
 
you need to set your tranny / shift points to take advantage of the extra torque and (more importantly) the vastly different power band.

shifting at redline / shortest gears possible arent always the best way to go. particularly with american muscle.
 
Also..fully tunable tranny should always be at least 6 speeds. I am pretty sure a camaro can have 6. Tvr as well...yes I know they famously stick to 5....
 
I have the same issue with the Aston Martin V8 Vantage. Somehow, it has 565pp at 961hp and weighs somewhere just over 1300kg. Think about it; 565pp, 961hp!

Of course it handles like crap, but on certain tracks like LeMans, it kills the competition purely from straight line speed.

My guess for the whole situation is this: some cars have better traits for different tracks, and the key is to exploit those traits on the right track for your vehicle within its pp range.
 
Rudenut
Also..fully tunable tranny should always be at least 6 speeds. I am pretty sure a camaro can have 6. Tvr as well...yes I know they famously stick to 5....
Click to expand...

you just dont get it. certain cars, there is no need for a 6spd. see my post above. i have 5 spd cars that will out accellerate 6spd cars.
 
esoxhntr
you just dont get it. certain cars, there is no need for a 6spd. see my post above. i have 5 spd cars that will out accellerate 6spd cars.
Click to expand...

6 speed for added control. Not really acceleration.

Anyway, the point I am making is that the iroc cannot compete, even with proper driving, in the 450 class. Tuned suspension or not. Torque, in this case is too penalized. Or hp is not penalized enough. Thus, the pp system needs overhauling so that it reflects balance.

Handling dynamics such as frame stiffness and wheelbase should be taken in to account even if individual settings cannot be. Apply a flat score to things such as suspension and drivetrain mods.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Rudenut
Anyway, the point I am making is that the iroc cannot compete, even with proper driving, in the 450 class. Tuned suspension or not.
Click to expand...
Did you actually test this?

Rudenut
Handling dynamics such as frame stiffness and wheelbase should be taken in to account even if individual settings cannot be.
Click to expand...
Handling dynamics caused as a result wheelbase size is also a subjective quality.

Rudenut
Apply a flat score to things such as suspension and drivetrain mods.
Click to expand...
That wouldn't make things better.
 
"But the PP is not just HP and weight there is more to it."

I sometimes think it's exactly that. I know it shouldn't, but I get the feeling that is the main formula for performance points.
Anyways that doesn't matter, the system is a complete mess, it doesn't even take tire compounds into account.
IMO it wasn't needed at all as it's often very missleading.
 
Talking about have a car with the same PP can out perform another. If you have a car that is fully upgraded with all power add on and weight reduction and do not take in things that don't count toward PP. When you want to reduce the PP you restrict engine power or add weight till it's down to the PP you want.
If you just restrict power or just add the weight the car will perfrom differnt. Even that the PP is the same.
 
PP takes many things into consideration, such as:
- power
- torque
- tyre grip
- aerodynamics
- weight
- weight balance
- effective powerband

But PP doesn't take these things into consideration:
- mechanical grip
- top speed
- drivetrain modifications


PP system is good as a waypoint but you shouldn't use it as a guide.
 
Last edited:
I always thought the PP was calculated based on power, weight, and downforce. Those are the only settings that seem to change the PP score, when you do your tuning.
I have no idea how its really calculated, but some cars are noticeably faster at a same PP than others...
Besides that, drive train and suspension parts don't affect the PP score, but still make the car perform a lot better.

Who knows.... email PD and ask them how its calculated.
 
moparisgod
My Buick Special has 552pp @ 800+ hp, but when you take the supercharger off it goes to 571pp @700+ hp :confused:
Click to expand...


Energizerrr
PP takes many things into consideration, such as:
- power
- torque
- tyre grip
- aerodynamics
- weight
- weight balance
- effective powerband

But PP doesn't take these things into consideration:
- mechanical grip
- top speed
- drivetrain modifications


PP system is good as a waypoint but you shouldn't use it as a guide.
Click to expand...

Solved.
 

Latest Posts

Back