PP or HP Restrictions at This Point?

[Bushby_23]

Mainly PP, but I am not fussed either way. Both seem to work well enough in the rooms im in, but PP is the more prominantly used limiter.

 

[Brock1Samson9]

A more complicated way to factor in transmission performance would be to compare the engine powerband to the RPM spread for each gear, and theoretical transmission top speed to power and drag. But I don't see that happening because it sounds complicated.

That, and the fact that in most cases those theoretical top speeds are wrong.

 

[Exorcet]

That, and the fact that in most cases those theoretical top speeds are wrong.

What do you mean? Are you referring to the cars inability to get to the transmission speed, even with enough power? That's just an issue with the rev limiter, which for some reason is not considered in the top speed read out in the gearing menu.

I think that the number should be changed to reflect the highest speed at redline.

 

[Blitz24]

What do you mean? Are you referring to the cars inability to get to the transmission speed, even with enough power? That's just an issue with the rev limiter, which for some reason is not considered in the top speed read out in the gearing menu.

I think that the number should be changed to reflect the highest speed at redline.

There's also an issue of whether or not the actual top speed can be reached. I understand that a Citroen C4 WRC Car can have a top speed setting of 200+ MPH but there is no way that the car is built to attain that speed (therefore making the transmission setting relatively useless).

 

[Brock1Samson9]

What do you mean? Are you referring to the cars inability to get to the transmission speed, even with enough power? That's just an issue with the rev limiter, which for some reason is not considered in the top speed read out in the gearing menu.

I think that the number should be changed to reflect the highest speed at redline.

Which is exactly why it's wrong. If the car can't actually reach that speed then it is incorrect, regardless of what causes it.

 

[omegasc]

PP, if they manage to tweak it. Different cars with equal PP should have a difference in lap times no bigger than half a second, imho. But yesterday, I got a Nissan GT-R around 3 secs faster than an equal PP Lancer Evo X. The game should have allowed the Evo to have way more HPs to a better balance.
It's probably not an easy task. I hope they tuned it in Spec 2.0

 

[maxpontiac]

If all cars run around 1200kg and 600hp, things are very competitive.

Hey, someone beat me to the idea.

http://gt1world.com/cars/spec/nissan-gt-r

 

[Exorcet]

Which is exactly why it's wrong. If the car can't actually reach that speed then it is incorrect, regardless of what causes it.

Now I understand, but it's not incorrect.

That is the speed that the transmission could let the car reach. I said that this would be compared to power and drag (ie the real top speed) to see how optimized the gearing is.

Example, car has 150 mph top speed (at peak power), then gearing to 200 mph = less PP.

 

[seanneedscar]

HP / weight restrictions are even worse than PP racing.

They create an even bigger margin of difference

Example, last night I was in a 680 hp / 1100 weight server. people were using production cars and a couple race cars

of course I hop in my R8 race car and finish atleast 30 seconds ahead of 2nd

Even if your HP and weight is the same as everyone else, you could still be 200/300 PP ahead of them. its absolutely stupid to restrict your server this way.

PP racing is *almost* as bad as there seems to be some cars that are "ringers" (bmw m3 gtr, nsx-r, ect) but you can usually get a good race.

I agree that obviously PP, hp, and weight restrictions would make for the best races. we will see what happens

 

[zero_speed]

Transmissions cannot be included in PP by their inherent subjectivity, and there is no real reason to put tires back into the calculations now that you can limit them separately.

Tires being included would make car building a lot more interesting, truly having to balance power and grip. Transmissions wouldn't have to take up a lot of PP (1 or 2 points), because it is a upgrade over stock and at the very least offers faster shift times *in game*.

 

[Tornado]

Tires being included would make car building a lot more interesting, truly having to balance power and grip.

There is no reason to do this, because you can already restrict tires, and it will cause all of the problems that tires being included in PP originally cause.

Transmissions wouldn't have to take up a lot of PP (1 or 2 points), because it is a upgrade over stock and at the very least offers faster shift times *in game*.

Racing transmissions by themselves do nothing for shift times, and for cars with correctly modeled automatic transmissions actually make them worse.

 

[CSLACR]

There is no reason to do this, because you can already restrict tires, and it will cause all of the problems that tires being included in PP originally cause.

I do agree tires aren't needed, but in a perfect world it could add to the mix very nicely. More of a wish that won't come true anytime soon then actually unnecessary.

Racing transmissions by themselves do nothing for shift times, and for cars with correctly modeled automatic transmissions actually make them worse.

I assume you mean in the game here. (otherwise it's missing very critical details)

In any case, a FC trans in GT5 can be one of the biggest lap time gainers there is, I would dedicate a "standard" application of at least 3-5PP for it.
Of course car specific is always best, but would require more proper testing then I believe PD will ever do.

In any case, just adding 1 PP for each non-power/weight mod would certainly be an improvement in leveling the playing field for mixed races.

 

[Sander 001]

Limiting engine power is the biggest misconception I've seen regarding the PP system. Ask yourself why you don't see LMP cars winning races at 600pp.

 

[CSLACR]

Limiting engine power is the biggest misconception I've seen regarding the PP system. Ask yourself why you don't see LMP cars winning races at 600pp.

Because people ban them?
Are you suggesting an LMP car can't compete with a SuperGT car at 600PP?

The only advantage the SuperGT car would have is more power, and we all know how the PP system treats high powered cars.

But the main complaint I have for the PP system is that no street car can ever have a chance against a race car at the same PP, with even remotely close drivers.
This is proven regularly with high downforce cars dominating every PP they're allowed in.
Downforce, and weight bias are the current PP plagues.

 

[Exorcet]

I do agree tires aren't needed, but in a perfect world it could add to the mix very nicely. More of a wish that won't come true anytime soon then actually unnecessary.

I would only want tires included in PP if there were two conditions:

1 - Real tires (as in individual tires from tire manufacturers) were simulated

2 - You had the option to restrict tires in online room to one or more classes (ie, all season, summer, R compound DOT, Race tire, etc).

 

[CSLACR]

I would only want tires included in PP if there were two conditions:

1 - Real tires (as in individual tires from tire manufacturers) were simulated

2 - You had the option to restrict tires in online room to one or more classes (ie, all season, summer, R compound DOT, Race tire, etc).

Okay, I'll ask then.
Why would we "need" all of that to include tires into PP?
Surely the different compounds we have now share many a similarity to real life, and the compounds we already have can have a "PP" value placed on them.

So why do I "need" the name Pirelli P Zero to place a PP value on them again? (See Comfort Soft or Sports Hard)

 

[iamjajo]

PP restrictions are easy to implement; easy to understand, and easy for participants to find cars to race.

The host can add verbal rules for the room to keep certain types of cars out. And, with separate tire restrictions, it can make the races interesting.

Purists can create their own leagues with lots of rules and many people do that already.

But, for open lobby and the types of people you find there, simple formulas are probably the best answer.

 

[Nismo34]

But the main complaint I have for the PP system is that no street car can ever have a chance against a race car at the same PP, with even remotely close drivers.
This is proven regularly with high downforce cars dominating every PP they're allowed in.
Downforce, and weight bias are the current PP plagues.

Oh well I dont know where you're racing but in the lobbys Im in, We often have some road cars going up against some race cars and more often then not, the racecars will lose to the road cars.
The PP system, IMO, Is better than hp/kg as it factors alot more in. There are, as with all systems, flaws where you will get that standout car that will win no matter what (LFA, S2000, M3 GTR) but the rest of the cars will be quite close.
In problem I can see with the PP system is It doesnt seem to take into account the drivetrain choic all that much. In a 580pp race between FR road cars vs 4WD road cars, the 4WD's will dominate.

 

[CSLACR]

Oh well I dont know where you're racing but in the lobbys Im in, We often have some road cars going up against some race cars and more often then not, the racecars will lose to the road cars.
The PP system, IMO, Is better than hp/kg as it factors alot more in. There are, as with all systems, flaws where you will get that standout car that will win no matter what (LFA, S2000, M3 GTR) but the rest of the cars will be quite close.
In problem I can see with the PP system is It doesnt seem to take into account the drivetrain choic all that much. In a 580pp race between FR road cars vs 4WD road cars, the 4WD's will dominate.

Just because the race cars lose doesn't mean they're slower, have you even considered that?
Typically the faster drivers will get a thrill out of beating faster cars with slower ones, some food for thought.

Or I guess I could make a fully modded car run laps against a LMP car... But never mind, I know how these things go, I would literally have to drive every car at every possible PP level and win with the race cars every single time to actually end this, and I just don't have that kind of time.

But what I can do is turn a few laps at IRC at 600PP with race cars, and see how they stack against the fastest of the fast road cars.
Stay tuned.

 

[Exorcet]

Okay, I'll ask then.
Why would we "need" all of that to include tires into PP?
Surely the different compounds we have now share many a similarity to real life, and the compounds we already have can have a "PP" value placed on them.

So why do I "need" the name Pirelli P Zero to place a PP value on them again? (See Comfort Soft or Sports Hard)

GT5's tire system is extremely simple. Grip is almost 100% dependent on the tire type alone, and the performance gap between each grade of tire is pretty big. It's for those reasons that I don't like mixed tire racing.

However if the gaps between tires wasn't so big, you could run a bunch of tires of similar spec without much issue. Also, if things like lateral grip were dependent on car and tire, instead of just tire, it would also help balance tire performance differences when those tires were used over a wide range of vehicles. In other words, putting sports tires on a stock VW Beetle wouldn't magically give it twice the cornering grip of a Beetle on road tires. I don't care if PD gets the rights to call the tires by their real names or not, what I want is a better tire model with more subtle difference between tires. Right now tires are basically just a way to determine the cornering speeds of the race you're hosting. It's a bit more complex in reality.

 

[CSLACR]

GT5's tire system is extremely simple. Grip is almost 100% dependent on the tire type alone, and the performance gap between each grade of tire is pretty big. It's for those reasons that I don't like mixed tire racing.

However if the gaps between tires wasn't so big, you could run a bunch of tires of similar spec without much issue. Also, if things like lateral grip were dependent on car and tire, instead of just tire, it would also help balance tire performance differences when those tires were used over a wide range of vehicles. In other words, putting sports tires on a stock VW Beetle wouldn't magically give it twice the cornering grip of a Beetle on road tires. I don't care if PD gets the rights to call the tires by their real names or not, what I want is a better tire model with more subtle difference between tires. Right now tires are basically just a way to determine the cornering speeds of the race you're hosting. It's a bit more complex in reality.

A fair point I guess, but I think you're overestimating the grip levels available in real life.
And in any case, if PP were set accordingly tires could be involved, obviously you can't compete with CH if the other cars are running RS, but tires of the same compound could generally be implemented into the PP system.

 

[Frozzy]

I hate how majority of low PP rooms allow racing softs... Makes no sense.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

PP seems alot more fun cause you can have a heavy but powerful in a straight line type car against a nimble but less on power car. Just the difference on cars and what not is what I like seeing when we get in a race.

 

[CSLACR]

PP seems alot more fun cause you can have a heavy but powerful in a straight line type car against a nimble but less on power car. Just the difference on cars and what not is what I like seeing when we get in a race.

In concept I agree.

Unfortunately in GT5, the lighter car (up to 1000KG) is almost always faster around 90% of tracks.
Of course, super light cars like the Lotus get screwed because they're too light, and you have to add ballast of 200KG to get best PP range performance.

 

[shirakawaa]

Online the weight of a full fuel tank (~75 Kg) is not taken into account in PP calculation with tire and fuel depletion enabled, so lighter cars are in disadvantage on low PP races.

 

[another_jakhole]

Is it realistic thinking PD will sort of revamp the way PP are? I don't see it happening but this is an honest question. I would love for them to do it. For one reason, the last thing CSLACR stated about adding weight to a Lotus.

I hate how majority of low PP rooms allow racing softs... Makes no sense.

ewww. Why do people do that?

It might be ok if you're looking to recreate karting with cars.

Or, if you're with some friends who don't really play, but if it's that many people doing that....what the?

 

[SavageEvil]

Online the weight of a full fuel tank (~75 Kg) is not taken into account in PP calculation with tire and fuel depletion enabled, so lighter cars are in disadvantage on low PP races.

In a perfect world, but that would be unnecessary in the game as the race wears on the PP would increase as the car got lighter, but if this works the same way for all cars then you'd be right back at the same place you are now would you not? The only new variable is how much fuel your car burns per lap, and the cars like RX7's and NSX's will still hold the same advantage they do now, they are light and fast just as nimble as the lotus but with a much higher top end.

PP works fine, just need more restrictions that can be added to make races a little more streamlined that is all. Perhaps PD can add the fuel weight to the PP, but no idea if they will. As it is PP is much better system than all the others implemented. I will give the LMP 600 PP vs Super GT 600 PP a test, I don't think the LMP will lose because of their greater agility and incredible stopping power. As for road cars beating race cars at similar PP, depends on the driver, but honestly the race car usually has the edge because of grip and acceleration it's hard to overcome those with a car that just does not have the lateral grip to compensate.

 

[esoxhntr]

But the main complaint I have for the PP system is that no street car can ever have a chance against a race car at the same PP, with even remotely close drivers.
This is proven regularly with high downforce cars dominating every PP they're allowed in.
.

I would STRONGLY disagree with this statement. Perhaps at higher PP values it is true but bring a 500pp or below race car to Nurburgring and I will spank it with a street car at 500. Every time. At this PP level, the points "wasted" on aero are much better served going to HP.

 

[Exorcet]

ewww. Why do people do that?

I have no idea. It is extremely annoying, and there seem to be even less non RS rooms open now than a month of so ago.

What GT5 needs is a rules filter. You should be able to filter the room list. It would at least make the few non RS tire rooms easy to find.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

In concept I agree.

Unfortunately in GT5, the lighter car (up to 1000KG) is almost always faster around 90% of tracks.
Of course, super light cars like the Lotus get screwed because they're too light, and you have to add ballast of 200KG to get best PP range performance.

Oh don't get me wrong I'm talking in concept not GT5 or any other game I've played thus far.