PP similarities but huge time differences.

DejectedAngeI

DejectedAngeI

35
United States
United States
Been away from the game for awhile, but been noticing there are huge lap time differences even when the cars have the same PP. my R33 and R34 are nearly 6-8 seconds faster than my NSX, supra, porche, ect. I remember back in gt5 the NSX was the monster in PP limit races, but can’t seem to put down lap times close to the 33 and 34.
Seems like it would be a big issue for online races. Haven’t played online, but seeing as though the lap times are this far apart, not sure if I want too. Because it was fun being able to use all cars, and then being close in performance with the same PP
 
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Is that the same on all tracks or one specific circuit? It may be worth trying a few circuits to see if it swings the other way at all ors more even. If it's one circuit that you're experiencing this on it could simply be one not suited to the NSX. PP isn't a golden goose for performance equality as each car would need a different PP calcualtion done for each track which again would need recacluating whenever the car is tuned or modified. So you can have a car far more suited to a tight track against a car more suited to a faster track etc. I'm not sure if there is any data connected to what location the PP is estaimating a cars performance at.
 
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Dave A
Is that the same on all tracks or one specific circuit? It may be worth trying a few circuits to see if it swings the other way at all ors more even. If it's one circuit that you're experiencing this on it could simply be one not suited to the NSX. PP isn't a golden goose for performance equality as each car would need a different PP calcualtion done for each track which again would need recacluating whenever the car is tuned or modified. So you can have a car far more suited to a tight track against a car more suited to a faster track etc. I'm not sure if there is any data connected to what location the PP is estaimating a cars performance at.
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Nuremberg ring is where I’m running. As for losing traction, I’m actually having no slip issues. My awd, are actually more unstable the. My FR’s. Most def under braking and or liftoff oversteer. I like to run at 550pp. No aids on sports soft tires.
 
DejectedAngeI
Been away from the game for awhile, but been noticing there are huge lap time differences even when the cars have the same PP. my R33 and R34 are nearly 6-8 seconds faster than my NSX, supra, porche, ect. I remember back in gt5 the NSX was the monster in PP limit races, but can’t seem to put down lap times close to the 33 and 34.
Seems like it would be a big issue for online races. Haven’t played online, but seeing as though the lap times are this far apart, not sure if I want too. Because it was fun being able to use all cars, and then being close in performance with the same PP
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Online races with stakes are run on BoP, which still sees some stronger and some weaker cars.
PP is only something you will find in the free lobby races.
If you have a look at the various threads about the grinding races, you will notice very different times for cars that are but to the respective PP limit.
 
Cars may have similar PP's, but there may be fundamental attributes about the car that are not well suited to your particular driving style. For myself I seem to not get on as well with mid-engine Gr3 cars in general. Some cars are better under braking than others, some better at mid-corner speed etc etc.

Again, it will depend on how you drive and what areas you lean on to go faster.
 
I’ll try to record some laps from different cars and upload them. I’m pushing each car to their limit, driving smooth and hard with each. I just remember how balanced gt5 was with pp. I’m just at a loss and thought I’d ask you guys.

If online lobbies are limited by pp, how would I make a streetcar lobby and keep it balanced? Sorry for the question. I just haven’t messed with online, but been wanting to host street car lobbies like back in the day.
 
DejectedAngeI
I’ll try to record some laps from different cars and upload them. I’m pushing each car to their limit, driving smooth and hard with each. I just remember how balanced gt5 was with pp. I’m just at a loss and thought I’d ask you guys.

If online lobbies are limited by pp, how would I make a streetcar lobby and keep it balanced? Sorry for the question. I just haven’t messed with online, but been wanting to host street car lobbies like back in the day.
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As I said above, some cars at certain PP levels and tunes will be better suited to certain tracks even though their PP seem comparable. Try different tracks.

As for the Nurburgring, if the layout you're testing on is the Nordschleife then firstly, that usually favours cars with higher top end speeds and secondly, as it's a long track, small differences in perfromance will make a big difference by the end of the lap.
 
PP isn't a great determinator of speed. They stopped taking suspension into account for one thing. Other things like weight distribution and aero balance can have a much larger effect on speed than their PP may indicate.
 
Magog
PP isn't a great determinator of speed. They stopped taking suspension into account for one thing. Other things like weight distribution and aero balance can have a much larger effect on speed than their PP may indicate.
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I been adding weight to get a 50/50 balance on fr and mrs. I tried 50/50 with awd and those cars don’t like it lol. A lot of lift off oversteer and oversteer while breaking.
 
DejectedAngeI
I been adding weight to get a 50/50 balance on fr and mrs. I tried 50/50 with awd and those cars don’t like it lol. A lot of lift off oversteer and oversteer while breaking.
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50/50 is for rotation on a corner, acceleration and braking can be totally different numbers by a lot of factors.
That means for racing, 50/50 would be the ideal values, when the car is designed around that.
Which than means other distributrions can be better and likely will be better, because the car is NOT designed for 50/50 racing and trying to achieve this is just upsetting the stability and also straight line performance.
 
The performance point system is a method for restricting the tuning of cars. It’s simpler and more flexible than having weight, power and aero restrictions, because you just need to look at one number to see if you’re eligible for an event, and it allows for more variety in what kind of cars can be used.

Performance points do not predict your lap times, even though the PP is calculated by simulating a lap. The reason for this is because the PP score takes a bunch of different vehicle characteristics and boils it down to a single number and that’s just not how physics work. The easiest example is to take two cars of the same model and tune them to the same PP using different approaches. One car you’ll tune to be as lightweight as possible and the other car you’ll tune to have as much power as possible. The first car you’ll balance to the PP target by restricting power and the second car you’ll balance to the target by adding ballast.

Take these cars for a couple of tests, and what you’ll find is that the lightweight car performs better at technical, low speed tracks while the high power car performs better at fast-flowing high speed tracks. The reason for that is that at low speeds the acceleration is proportional to the power-to-weight ratio while at high speeds the aerodynamic drag becomes dominant.

So if you want cars with equal performance across a wide range of circuits you have to look at more things than just the PP score. At a minimum you need to have similar weight, similar power, similar aero and similar tyres.
 
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Magog
PP isn't a great determinator of speed. They stopped taking suspension into account for one thing. Other things like weight distribution and aero balance can have a much larger effect on speed than their PP may indicate.
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And since the update suspension has a greater effect on drag. So those silly set-ups that have the ride heights racked up one way or the other now haemorrhage top speed.
 
The issue with NSX (I guess you mean the '02 one?) is that PP gets too high when you bring upgrades. You can bring more upgrades to the GT-Rs, yet they'll still remain lower PP.
 
Aston Martin DP-100 tuned to 600PP vs the Van tuned to 600pp is a night and day difference around Tokyo, and pretty much any other track. The Van is actually a pretty good car, it just sucks at top speed and fuel consumption. The DP-100 could probably win the Le Mans WTC700 tuned to 600pp. The van would likely get lapped once or twice.
 
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Tommy_D
Aston Martin DP-100 tuned to 600PP vs the Van tuned to 600pp is a night and day difference around Tokyo, and pretty much any other track. The Van is actually a pretty good car, it just sucks at top speed and fuel consumption. The DP-100 could probably win the Le Mans WTC700 tuned to 600pp. The van would likely get lapped once or twice.
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Not an exact comparison, but I can say from experience that the DP-100 can win the Spa 1hr. race tuned to 711pp :)
 
DejectedAngeI
Nuremberg
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*Nurburgring. The track is named after a tiny town called Nurburg. Nuremberg is a large city on the other side of Germany famous for hosting post-WW2 trials of Nazi Germany government officials.

In general the Nurburgring is a terrible place to benchmark cars against each other. The track is massive, complicated, technical, with tons of opportunity to make mistakes, etc. If you want to test cars you need tracks that are smaller and more repeatable, especially ones with a good variety of corners. I use Tsukuba for slow cars and Alsace Village for faster cars with downforce.
 
SURV1V3
The issue with NSX (I guess you mean the '02 one?) is that PP gets too high when you bring upgrades. You can bring more upgrades to the GT-Rs, yet they'll still remain lower PP.
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Only upgrades I apply to all my cars are >full suspension
sports soft tires
sports breaks and pads
close ratio trans both low and high. Been running high, even though my cars can barely reach their last gear on Nurburgring.
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That’s it. Of course the ballast and power restrictors.
Only time I add other tunes is if the car can’t make the 550pp mark.
So they are mostly as stock as they can be. Even started not using torque vectoring since I believe that is a tune that can give awd, especially the skyline an advantage.

I also run universal tunes based on Japanese theory. Everything as stiff and low as possible Lmao. It’s the most stable and comfortable tune for me since I can predict the car better.
 
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Meythia
50/50 is for rotation on a corner, acceleration and braking can be totally different numbers by a lot of factors.
That means for racing, 50/50 would be the ideal values, when the car is designed around that.
Which than means other distributrions can be better and likely will be better, because the car is NOT designed for 50/50 racing and trying to achieve this is just upsetting the stability and also straight line performance.
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Oh, I don’t blindly add it for no reason at all lol. Everything I’ve tried in Fr, rr and Mr run better at 50/50 for me, since it limits the tail from sliding out, allowing me to apply throttle sooner and more comfortably. Only cars that I’ve found that hate 50/50 are awd. Well, I haven’t ran many FF yet, but I’ll get to those soon.
 
I tested the power or weight theory and there was zero difference in lap times. R33

power set:
Pp:549.58
Hp:276
Weight:3053 pounds.
Ballast maxed out at 200.
Ecu:78
Power restrictor: 100
Nurburing lap time 7:39:472

Weight set:
Pp: 549.99
Hp:246
Weight:2626 lbs
Ballast: 6
Ecu: 70
Power restrictor: 99
Nurburing lap time 7:39:653

Now, although the lap times didn’t differ, the way it felt did. The power build felt like an elephant on meth, compared to the lower power and lower weight.
 
I have a theory this is another fault with the pp system. More precisely an imbalance in pp due to weight balast. In GT7, weight balast seems to heavily take precedence on PP values, perhaps more than it should.

As far as I know both front engined AWD and FWD have their PP calculated very similarly.

Both layouts generally have the majority of their mass over the front wheels. Because of this, the PP calculations for FWD cars tend to be in their favor. By that I mean generally having lower pp than other layouts in their power to weight class, and rightly so imo, the front wheels have to do double the work in addition to all that weight on top of them.
On the other hand, it’s incorrect to apply the same PP handicap to front engine 4WD cars for obvious reasons. Which I believe the game does anyway. It appears as though PP allows weight balast to almost entirely mute the effect of the party piece, the 4wd system. Which should behave as a PP modifier in itself.

At the same time, a car like the NA 2 NSX is one of the MR cars in the game where the op influence weight balast has on PP, works against it. Almost as much as some of the more modern RR porsches in the game. Of course I’m talking about the only two RR porsches in the game that can be classed as modern, the 997 GT3 and 991 GT3 RS respectively.

Imo, all what needs to happen is that weight balast influence on PP in most JDM AWD cars, some MR cars and the 911’s need to be toned down. As you've already discovered weight balast does not hold such a benevolent effect on how a car performs in the game as what is implied through PP.

Where the majority of the weight is gathered in relation to the front and rear wheel axles on a car in the game should definitely effect PP, but clearly not that drastically given the current physics engine in GT7.

That’s theory anyway.
 
DejectedAngeI
I tested the power or weight theory and there was zero difference in lap times. R33

power set:
Pp:549.58
Hp:276
Weight:3053 pounds.
Ballast maxed out at 200.
Ecu:78
Power restrictor: 100
Nurburing lap time 7:39:472

Weight set:
Pp: 549.99
Hp:246
Weight:2626 lbs
Ballast: 6
Ecu: 70
Power restrictor: 99
Nurburing lap time 7:39:653

Now, although the lap times didn’t differ, the way it felt did. The power build felt like an elephant on meth, compared to the lower power and lower weight.
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I have done the same with Alfa 4C and 600PP (on a different track), power was better.
So the answer is not as easy as that (adding weight sometimes glitches PP calculations in the same way as it can happen on aero settings, and suddenly you see a PP jump upward by using a tuning part that should actually be slower).
Remember that weight distribution also plays a part in the question of weight or power - you know about the power wheelie and what is preventing this = giving you a better acceleration? Having just enough weight at the right spot.
 
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Keef
In general the Nurburgring is a terrible place to benchmark cars against each other. The track is massive, complicated, technical, with tons of opportunity to make mistakes, etc. If you want to test cars you need tracks that are smaller and more repeatable, especially ones with a good variety of corners. I use Tsukuba for slow cars and Alsace Village for faster cars with downforce.
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Exactly... I remember a couple of years ago, on WTCC Hyundai was the class of the field, so the BoP changed right before Nurburgring round, they raised the minimum ride height of the I30s, which would make the cars slower on other tracks, but didn't matter at all at the Ring, since all the cars were running a bit higher than the BoP minimum.
It's a track very tricky to MR cars, specially under braking and even more on GT7, with those huge rake angles that make the aero work better, the rear will be all over the place. I may not be overdriving it, but certainly have to be more cautious on the NSX.


DejectedAngeI
I’ll try to record some laps from different cars and upload them. I’m pushing each car to their limit, driving smooth and hard with each. I just remember how balanced gt5 was with pp. I’m just at a loss and thought I’d ask you guys.
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GT5 wasn't that balanced, Suzuki GSX-R4 was the car to go, particularly in Seasonal Events PP restricted, specially when you would get a bonus on how much under the PP limit your car was. At the same PP it would be so much faster than any other car...

Also, as the community started discovering glitches, PD responded removing those parameters from the calculations (gear ratios, suspension settings, and so), making the PP calculation worst (you can have the same car, the same upgrades, the same aero, but different suspension and gearing settings, and both will have the same PP, but feel a lot different and will have a huge variation on lap times).
 
In my personal Nordschleife time trial sheet, the four-wheel drives seem to wipe the floor with the rear-wheel drives with a similar PP-value. In addition, PP-simulation tests seem to favor light cars and, for example, top speed is not necessarily emphasized enough. By favoring I mean that light cars get better performance values.

There is a clear reason for four-wheel drive dominance: they understeer if driven in the same way as rear-wheel drive. A good driver can change his driving style to be more suitable for four-wheel drive with a few weight transfer tricks. But in order for the pp simulation to be reliable, the game must always perform the tests in the same way.

It is easier for a human to get the benefit of additional power on straights just by pressing the gas, than the benefit of drivability in corners, which requires more skill. The Nordschleife's long straights and many uphills favor big torquing engines what heavier cars usually have. The lap times are probably more even and the line with PP-values on smaller tracks like Tsukuba.

The sides has been turned upside down because in older GT's light cars usually rekt heavier ones even though the PP was the same.
 
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Interesting comment.
 
Meythia
50/50 is for rotation on a corner, acceleration and braking can be totally different numbers by a lot of factors.
That means for racing, 50/50 would be the ideal values, when the car is designed around that.
Which than means other distributrions can be better and likely will be better, because the car is NOT designed for 50/50 racing and trying to achieve this is just upsetting the stability and also straight line performance.
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This is true, but poor aero balance will actually hurt the maximum lateral gs produced regardless of how much downforce is being produced. 50:50 is only good on a downforce car if the aero balance is also close to 50:50. Most Gr.Whatevers are not, so they have to compensate with power/weight or spring rates. Compensating using power, though, is how we end up with very easy to drive meta cars.

You can’t defend against straight line speed cleanly.
eran0004
So if you want cars with equal performance across a wide range of circuits you have to look at more things than just the PP score. At a minimum you need to have similar weight, similar power, similar aero and similar tyres.
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But nobody wants to join a lobby where their entire car list is yellow wrenches :lol:

Limiting displacement, engine type and drivetrain might also be useful here, much like in real motorsport. A meta would still form, but not nearly as bad.
SURV1V3
The issue with NSX (I guess you mean the '02 one?) is that PP gets too high when you bring upgrades. You can bring more upgrades to the GT-Rs, yet they'll still remain lower PP.
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I wonder if the fuel tank size and fuel economy are reasons for this. Been really suspicious about them recently. Just take a look at the Toyota Aqua and Prius G. Elusive.
 

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