Pro Braking vs. Noob Braking

  • Thread starter Thread starter GTPLam
  • 57 comments
  • 7,884 views
GTPLam

GTPLam

Messages
92
United States
United States
Messages
StealingL2
I've been playing GT for a while now and there's still something that bothers me about how to brake properly. I'm not talking about finding the correct brake point or what not but I'm talking about the technique of braking when approaching a corner. Sometimes when I spectate pro races or watch pro replays, I noticed that pros would depress the brake pedal 80% of the way and then lower down to about 20% and then back up to about 40% WHILE HEEL TOE DOWNSHIFTING AT THE SAME TIME throughout the apex before getting back on the gas again. The thing I don't understand is why don't they press the brake pedal down hard all the way 100% especially braking from high speed for a tight sharp corner.



Take this vid for example I found on Youtube. Notice how he doesn't press the brake all the way and sometimes he only depresses it about 10% or about 20% for certain corners. The funny thing is that I can achieve similar driving by slamming hard on the brakes 100% all the way hard till the apex before I let go. Am I doing it wrong?

CREDIT: Thanks 66lwmorgan for letting me use your vid as an example
 
perhaps you could ask the driver who you were watching to explain his technique to you - It will probably be tailored to the car and set up he was pedalling with -

A bit of flattery and fan worship and you may pick up some practical tips -
good hunting
 
The method your referring to can actually be quite faster around any track. It also doesnt allow the car to understeer do to the braking force.
 
The reason they don't use 100% is because they're saving it for later.

Sounds silly, but stick with me on this one. Through a corner, especially in a race, you're making millions of calculations per second through all stages of the turn. You're watching the coarse (turn, apex, exit), the cars (what lines, speed, momentum), and as such your movements and decisions can fluxuate. You'll notice a lack of this when the competition starts dive-bombing into turns, or develops a case of target fixation. This is partially why some racers are only marginally faster/slower than their competition. They can't break free.

Knowing this, you've got to use everything, and I mean everything to your advantage. In a turn, you aren't using just your brakes. You're also using the tires, suspension, and body of the car. By saving the brakes, and modulating them as witnessed, drivers are able to judge where to be when, and what to do next. Those guys know where their competition is going to be before they do. It's like the Force. They save that 20% so there's something left when something else goes wrong, such as a spin or wreck at the exit of the turn. They make up for that 20% in other ways, yet never actually driving at 100%.

Driving at 100%, even braking, never has positive consequences. Locking up into a corner is never a good idea. Tires get worn, parts get broken, and if everyone were driving 100%, more people would be killed (not in the game, of coarse). What makes people like Sir Jackie Stewart, Michael Schumacher, and Ayrton Senna so great is that they could drive closer to 100%, for longer, and with the exception of Senna, live to tell about it.

Find the balance. Learn to induce. Maximize your advantage.

Have paradise, and a chicken. (wife's advice)

GTP Racing School
 
McClarenDesign
The reason they don't use 100% is because they're saving it for later.

Sounds silly, but stick with me on this one. Through a corner, especially in a race, you're making millions of calculations per second through all stages of the turn. You're watching the coarse (turn, apex, exit), the cars (what lines, speed, momentum), and as such your movements and decisions can fluxuate. You'll notice a lack of this when the competition starts dive-bombing into turns, or develops a case of target fixation. This is partially why some racers are only marginally faster/slower than their competition. They can't break free.

Knowing this, you've got to use everything, and I mean everything to your advantage. In a turn, you aren't using just your brakes. You're also using the tires, suspension, and body of the car. By saving the brakes, and modulating them as witnessed, drivers are able to judge where to be when, and what to do next. Those guys know where their competition is going to be before they do. It's like the Force. They save that 20% so there's something left when something else goes wrong, such as a spin or wreck at the exit of the turn. They make up for that 20% in other ways, yet never actually driving at 100%.

Driving at 100%, even braking, never has positive consequences. Locking up into a corner is never a good idea. Tires get worn, parts get broken, and if everyone were driving 100%, more people would be killed (not in the game, of coarse). What makes people like Sir Jackie Stewart, Michael Schumacher, and Ayrton Senna so great is that they could drive closer to 100%, for longer, and with the exception of Senna, live to tell about it.

Find the balance. Learn to induce. Maximize your advantage.

Have paradise, and a chicken. (wife's advice)

GTP Racing School
Click to expand...

This bloke has it exactly right, except for the chicken....that confuses me :sly:
 
jedi09
It looks like he's not using ABS, thats why.
Click to expand...

McClarenDesign
By saving the brakes, and modulating them as witnessed, drivers are able to judge where to be when, and what to do next.
Click to expand...

I am torn between these two explanations; Modulation is mandatory without ABS, but only optional with ABS. With ABS, you would only need to modulate to slow down a bit for obstacles, or if your entry speed is too high into a corner. Braking during corners uses some of the grip used for turning, which is the basis of understeer.
 
Machate-man
I am torn between these two explanations; Modulation is mandatory without ABS, but only optional with ABS. With ABS, you would only need to modulate to slow down a bit for obstacles, or if your entry speed is too high into a corner. Braking during corners uses some of the grip used for turning, which is the basis of understeer.
Click to expand...

Or oversteer, depending on conditions. ABS doesn't necissarily allow one to run at 100%, it just prevents lock-up to varying degrees, and in varying ways. By the time they've reached 80%, they're commited, and already moved on to the next series of calculations and decisions.

Without ABS or with, modulation isn't mandatory. Brake application can be linear, but in race condtions amongst a pack, often isn't.
 
McClarenDesign
The reason they don't use 100% is because they're saving it for later.

Sounds silly, but stick with me on this one. Through a corner, especially in a race, you're making millions of calculations per second through all stages of the turn. You're watching the coarse (turn, apex, exit), the cars (what lines, speed, momentum), and as such your movements and decisions can fluxuate. You'll notice a lack of this when the competition starts dive-bombing into turns, or develops a case of target fixation. This is partially why some racers are only marginally faster/slower than their competition. They can't break free.

Knowing this, you've got to use everything, and I mean everything to your advantage. In a turn, you aren't using just your brakes. You're also using the tires, suspension, and body of the car. By saving the brakes, and modulating them as witnessed, drivers are able to judge where to be when, and what to do next. Those guys know where their competition is going to be before they do. It's like the Force. They save that 20% so there's something left when something else goes wrong, such as a spin or wreck at the exit of the turn. They make up for that 20% in other ways, yet never actually driving at 100%.

Driving at 100%, even braking, never has positive consequences. Locking up into a corner is never a good idea. Tires get worn, parts get broken, and if everyone were driving 100%, more people would be killed (not in the game, of coarse). What makes people like Sir Jackie Stewart, Michael Schumacher, and Ayrton Senna so great is that they could drive closer to 100%, for longer, and with the exception of Senna, live to tell about it.

Find the balance. Learn to induce. Maximize your advantage.

Have paradise, and a chicken. (wife's advice)

GTP Racing School
Click to expand...

?
If you save grip then you have just wasted it.
The good drivers are always over-under-over-under the limit.
The average ones have more unders than overs.
This guy might have not been using abs or his car is set up that way.
Save grip for later and you'll be passed in a snap.
 
Last edited:
Bopop4
No, just no.
If you save grip then you have just wasted it.
The good drivers are always over-under-over-under the limit.
The average ones have more unders than overs.
This guy might have not been using abs or his car is set up that way.
Save grip for later and you'll be passed in a snap.
Click to expand...

In a pack, if you don't save grip, you've plowed into someone. You may also recall, later in my quote, where I mentioned that great drivers are able to drive closer to 100% than the others around them.
 
If you are braking at 100% you cant turn properly. You are using 100% of the tyre grip for braking. Same goes for the acceleration also. I remember reading this in the back of the Gt3 manual.
 
Heres a good example 1987 Detroit GP Senna laid back the 1st half of the race while Mansell pulled put a 20+sec gap used up his tires at and had to pit lap 30 somthing.
Then senna went all out and won the race ,he pulled out a 30 sec gap on mansell
all because he went easy at the start of the race.
It all about pacing yourself properly in a race when to push and when not to.
 
McClarenDesign
In a pack, if you don't save grip, you've plowed into someone. You may also recall, later in my quote, where I mentioned that great drivers are able to drive closer to 100% than the others around them.
Click to expand...

In a pack it is different yes.
But imagine the limit as a horizontal line and a wave is going through it.
All drivers will be over the limit at some points but the best can keep the wave as flat, and high as possible.
(Of course if it's driving in a random race online, then yeah, you're going to have to avoid some idiots.)
Edit: I'm talking about outright lap times and not endurance races where you need to save the brakes.
 
Endless-Wilso
Heres a good example 1987 Detroit GP Senna laid back the 1st half of the race while Mansell pulled put a 20+sec gap used up his tires at and had to pit lap 30 somthing.
Then senna went all out and won the race ,he pulled out a 30 sec gap on mansell
all because he went easy at the start of the race.
It all about pacing yourself properly in a race when to push and when not to.
Click to expand...

 
:lol: F677/S
Rossi used to do that a lot too.
Pushed other riders to their limit whilst he rode along at 95-98 percent.
When they had used up their tires he just sailed on by.
 
I'm no expert, but there's two reasons why I don't always use 100% braking.

Firstly, it's because I don't want to over stress the tires. If you start to make them lock up, or put too much stress on them, you won't make the apex.

Secondly, I modulate the brakes to get the right amount of weight shift. Too much or not enough weight shifting affects the car's handling, your entrance and exit of a corner, your overall speed, and balanace of the car. It's the exact same logic to using the accelerator out of the corner.
 
Lewis_Hamilton_
I'm no expert, but there's two reasons why I don't always use 100% braking.

Firstly, it's because I don't want to over stress the tires. If you start to make them lock up, or put too much stress on them, you won't make the apex.

Secondly, I modulate the brakes to get the right amount of weight shift. Too much or not enough weight shifting affects the car's handling, your entrance and exit of a corner, your overall speed, and balanace of the car. It's the exact same logic to using the accelerator out of the corner.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but what good is that when your pit crew bungles the stop?

Sorry, just as mad as you, for sure!
 
McClarenDesign
In a pack, if you don't save grip, you've plowed into someone. You may also recall, later in my quote, where I mentioned that great drivers are able to drive closer to 100% than the others around them.
Click to expand...

But how would your explanation apply in time trialling? I hear what you're saying, but I don't completely agree in the context of the question; I have seen such drivers (I am certainly no pro) do the things the OP is rightly curious about while hot-lapping.

In the real world, you could also be worrying about brake fade. It is also possible you've missed the braking point slightly (early) in any context, and want to adjust accordingly; your pack explanation amounts to the same thing, only deliberately planned. When following, if you don't ease off or lightly brake early, you're about to be very unpopular, and it gives you more time to work out what the lead car is doing, and maybe a better line out.

However, in a hotlapping scenario, where you are trying to reach that 100% (or near to it) constantly, it would make no sense to do so. Again, IANAPro, but I'll go out on a limb until one shows up to see if I understand it correctly.

I think that threshold braking has a couple of benefits; it's smoother, quicker to trail brake out of (less unnecessary pedal travel), and I happen to believe it actually stops you fractionally faster (DS3 users can feel the onset of ABS/grip loss; on the wheel, I seem to have to rely on tire squeal now). GT5's ABS also demonstrably does "clever" things with EBD (see the difference in BB needed between ABS on and off), so you may want to retain control of that, too, since it could affect weight transfer.

Heel-and-toeing (I two-foot, myself - not planning a move to iRacing, and I just don't have anywhere near the skill yet to do it with the clutch) is used to manage weight transfer, downshift/off-throttle oversteer, rev-matching/minimizing speed loss, and maybe other grip circle stuff I probably don't understand. Watching the alien replays where they do all this at once, and find little lines you didn't know existed, is impressive to say the least. I can probably find some more examples.

I assume we don't need to say why brush braking, or a short stamp, might be useful.
 
Last edited:
Ealirendur
But how would your explanation apply in time trialling? I hear what you're saying, but I don't completely agree in the context of the question; I have seen such drivers (I am certainly no pro) do the things the OP is rightly curious about while hot-lapping.

In the real world, you could also be worrying about brake fade. It is also possible you've missed the braking point slightly (early) in any context, and want to adjust accordingly; your pack explanation amounts to the same thing, only deliberately planned. When following, if you don't ease off or lightly brake early, you're about to be very unpopular, and it gives you more time to work out what the lead car is doing, and maybe a better line out.

However, in a hotlapping scenario, where you are trying to reach that 100% (or near to it) constantly, it would make no sense to do so. Again, IANAPro, but I'll go out on a limb until one shows up to see if I understand it correctly.

I think that threshold braking has a couple of benefits; it's smoother, quicker to trail brake out of (less unnecessary pedal travel), and I happen to believe it actually stops you fractionally faster (DS3 users can feel the onset of ABS/grip loss; on the wheel, I seem to have to rely on tire squeal now). GT5's ABS also demonstrably does "clever" things with EBD (see the difference in BB needed between ABS on and off), so you may want to retain control of that, too, since it could affect weight transfer.

Heel-and-toeing (I two-foot, myself - not planning a move to iRacing, and I just don't have anywhere near the skill yet to do it with the clutch) is used to manage weight transfer, downshift/off-throttle oversteer, rev-matching/minimizing speed loss, and maybe other grip circle stuff I probably don't understand. Watching the alien replays where they do all this at once, and find little lines you didn't know existed, is impressive to say the least. I can probably find some more examples.

I assume we don't need to say why brush braking, or a short stamp, might be useful.
Click to expand...

Qualifying and hot laps are another animal entirely. In those instances, you're trying to extract every ounce of grip available in an effort to beat the stopwatch, youself, and your competitor.

I gave my answer based upon the video in the OP, which shows running in traffic.
 
The whole time I always thought braking was an ON/OFF concept, but after hearing about threshold braking and looking at this video, I’m torn between what to believe in anymore haha. Normally we would think that by applying full pressure on the brake pedal 100% all the way we get the most out of it. It’s almost like saying if I were trying to squeeze an orange with my hand. Why wouldn’t I use 100% of my strength to gradually squeeze it apart instead of just using 10-20% of my strength.

Take a look at the video I posted again, if you look closely at the video, notice how the brake bar fluctuates and doesn’t just stay firmly all the way at 100%. What I normally do is approach the corner at full speed, throttle pedal down all the way. Then as I approach the brake point, I would depress the brake pedal all the way 100% throughout the brake zone. Lets say it’s a 4th gear corner coming down to a 2nd gear corner, while the midst of downshifting my foot would still be fully depressed on the brake pedal until I reach the apex of the corner. But I guess I’m doing it wrong the whole time since all the pros are saying that braking technique is not just an ON/OFF concept.

Oh btw, it’s so much easier to heel/toe downshift by having my toe fully depressed on the brake pedal firmly 100% at all times anyway instead of having to fluctuate the brake so why don’t the pros do it?
 
McClarenDesign
The reason they don't use 100% is because they're saving it for later.

Sounds silly, but stick with me on this one. Through a corner, especially in a race, you're making millions of calculations per second through all stages of the turn. You're watching the coarse (turn, apex, exit), the cars (what lines, speed, momentum), and as such your movements and decisions can fluxuate. You'll notice a lack of this when the competition starts dive-bombing into turns, or develops a case of target fixation. This is partially why some racers are only marginally faster/slower than their competition. They can't break free.

Knowing this, you've got to use everything, and I mean everything to your advantage. In a turn, you aren't using just your brakes. You're also using the tires, suspension, and body of the car. By saving the brakes, and modulating them as witnessed, drivers are able to judge where to be when, and what to do next. Those guys know where their competition is going to be before they do. It's like the Force. They save that 20% so there's something left when something else goes wrong, such as a spin or wreck at the exit of the turn. They make up for that 20% in other ways, yet never actually driving at 100%.

Driving at 100%, even braking, never has positive consequences. Locking up into a corner is never a good idea. Tires get worn, parts get broken, and if everyone were driving 100%, more people would be killed (not in the game, of coarse). What makes people like Sir Jackie Stewart, Michael Schumacher, and Ayrton Senna so great is that they could drive closer to 100%, for longer, and with the exception of Senna, live to tell about it.

Find the balance. Learn to induce. Maximize your advantage.

Have paradise, and a chicken. (wife's advice)

GTP Racing School
Click to expand...

No, not when your racing fast, you do always try and give yourself some mistake room under braking but not like that or that much.

You can't make up for the waste of 20% cornering grip usage on track, if you don't use it you have lost it. 20% under the limit is wayyy low for a fast room.

The only thinking that matters is the grip the tires can give you. Just because you can use 100% bake force, doesn't mean the tires have grip for 100% bake force, they may only have grip/stopping power for 40%.

Look up "Threshold_braking" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threshold_braking
And Trail braking http://www.drivingfast.net/techniques/track-corner.htm

If you use 100% braking power from speeds that only need 60% braking power (60% is the maximum amount stopping power the tire has grip for at that speed) , ABS will come in and remove the extra 40%. If ABS is "OFF" you will go over your maximum grip the tire gives you and crash.

You almost never use 100% braking power, it's actual slower. By only using the braking force you need, you maximize the amount of grip you have, giving you more grip for cornering.

Take a front tire coming into a corner. 100% grip will be used at all times, a fast lap.

Right now it is using 100% of it's grip to slow down. Say you're using 70% of your brake pedal (If you use 100% pedal then ABS will kick in remove your extra power and stop the tires from locking up because of exceeding the maximum % of grip ).

A second later you are going slower, so... less braking power is needed to keep the tires using 100% grip/stopping force. You can now start fading off the brakes (say 50% braking power, still using 100% of the grip that the tires can give).

Now your turning into the corner....

But wait, if you are already using 100% of you tires grip to stop, you don't have any left for cornering. If you turned the steering wheel now with ABS off, you will understeer (plow) into the corner and crash.

With ABS ON, it will kick in and remove braking power for you when you start turning the wheels. Leaving your tire grip too make the corner.
Some times it will be leaving you with too much extra grip for steering or too little grip to make the corner (see ABS OFF result) .

This when you stop ABS from kicking in and start trail braking.
So you fade off the brakes more (30% say) and now your tires are only using 70% of their grip. Leaving 30% left for cornering! Now is when you would turn into the corner. Using up the "extra" 30% grip. Now your tire is using 100% of its grip for stopping and turning.

You need to judge how much grip you need to leave yourself for corners.
This is when a drive may "modulate" the brakes feeling how much grip they need to make the corner. A "Pro" will not modulate and smoothly fade off with the right amount of grip to make the corner.

Also, the more you turn the steering wheel, the more grip the front tires need. So, the more you need to fade off the brakes. You may need to start stopping sooner.

Some "PRO" drivers, drive using 99% of of the tires grip when cornering, others use 90%. The guy using 99% of his grip will be faster, but he is very close to crashing, and will wear out his tires quicker than the 90% guy.

I think any drive wasting 20% of the grip on track is not really a "PRO" driver.

Though, most of us here can't use 99% of the grip whenever we want to set a fast lap. That takes skill and track knowledge to push the limits.

EDIT: Based on a RWD car... FWD cars and 4WD/AWD cars can have added tricks.
 
Last edited:
GTPLam
I've been playing GT for a while now and there's still something that bothers me about how to brake properly. I'm not talking about finding the correct brake point or what not but I'm talking about the technique of braking when approaching a corner. Sometimes when I spectate pro races or watch pro replays, I noticed that pros would depress the brake pedal 80% of the way and then lower down to about 20% and then back up to about 40% WHILE HEEL TOE DOWNSHIFTING AT THE SAME TIME throughout the apex before getting back on the gas again. The thing I don't understand is why don't they press the brake pedal down hard all the way 100% especially braking from high speed for a tight sharp corner.



Take this vid for example I found on Youtube. Notice how he doesn't press the brake all the way and sometimes he only depresses it about 10% or about 20% for certain corners. The funny thing is that I can achieve similar driving by slamming hard on the brakes 100% all the way hard till the apex before I let go. Am I doing it wrong?

CREDIT: Thanks 66lwmorgan for letting me use your vid as an example
Click to expand...


I never full break.. nor should you ever do in real life.. its light and you increase it as you get to the apex, its smooth compared to full breaking at every turn, certain cars will just spin out.
 
carracerptp
I think any drive wasting 20% of the grip on track is not really a "PRO" driver.
Click to expand...

Saving 20% leaves some for not crashing into YOU, the one using 98% to rip a lead from the pack.

In terms of real life, packed racing, you would not want to race at more than ~95% in order for you to not wear yourself (and the tyres) out early. It is also a good strategy to wait out those who over-exert in order for you to both out last the opposition, and not produce race-ending mistakes. Pacing the lead car (not always first; just whatever is in front of you) helps you keep track of how hard you're pushing, and let's your opponent know that you're there(In order for accidental block-crash to not occur).

In GT5 racing where (often) races consist of 2-3 laps, racing at 100% is advised simply for the reason that waiting out wont work, and the limited number of laps hastens everyone's need to overtake.

However in the Online events section here, races seem to mimic real races (Tyre wear+extremely close racing in packs), so racing conservatively by pacing the lead car would work with more success.
 
Most likely he isn't using ABS.

He's trailing the throttle through the braking zone to steady the rear end. If you take ABS off in a rear wheel drive car and brake hard you should feel the rear end become slightly unstable- not locking up, just slightly skittish. If you use a bit of throttle in the corner it pushes the car into the corner (understeers for want of a better word) thus putting more strain on the front tires and less on the rear.

Also I only ever use 100% braking power when coming fast into a tight corner (Mulsanne, Nurb GP first corner etc.) and even then it's not for long. Within a second or so I'm back easing it out again and that's because at high speed you CAN use 100% braking power without lock-up but once your speed has dropped you have to adjust. :)
 
I set my cars up so I'm not using 100%, in most situations, so a typical MR brake setting would be 8F 2R. This allows me to use the best braking for any situation.

On a normal circuit I'm using no more than 75% of the brakes and often, in slower corners a lot less!
At Monza, or La Sarthe coming down from 200mph+ I start with an application of 100% applied quickly but not slammed on and ease the brake as the speed comes off to avoid locking up as the downforce fades away.

I am using something I learned a long time ago on Motorbikes. Only there the weight first of all moves to the front wheel as you apply the front brake so you don't just grab a handful of brake you squeeze it on quickly but not instantly, and there is no aero for downforce!

Weight transfers onto the front wheels in a car less than on a bike but again slamming all on is not good and a fast but not instantaneous application is best.

On a track day for my 50th birthday, over 10 years ago now I was driving a Caterham seven and the instructor commented on my correct braking technique saying to many people just slammed the brakes on and hoped!
 
I think people have gotten lost in the numbers. The 80% being thrown about is not the amount of grip being used, but rather braking force used. Huge difference.
 
GTPLam
I've been playing GT for a while now and there's still something that bothers me about how to brake properly. I'm not talking about finding the correct brake point or what not but I'm talking about the technique of braking when approaching a corner. Sometimes when I spectate pro races or watch pro replays, I noticed that pros would depress the brake pedal 80% of the way and then lower down to about 20% and then back up to about 40% WHILE HEEL TOE DOWNSHIFTING AT THE SAME TIME throughout the apex before getting back on the gas again. The thing I don't understand is why don't they press the brake pedal down hard all the way 100% especially braking from high speed for a tight sharp corner.



Take this vid for example I found on Youtube. Notice how he doesn't press the brake all the way and sometimes he only depresses it about 10% or about 20% for certain corners. The funny thing is that I can achieve similar driving by slamming hard on the brakes 100% all the way hard till the apex before I let go. Am I doing it wrong?

CREDIT: Thanks 66lwmorgan for letting me use your vid as an example
Click to expand...


From what you have described here, I think they are driving without ABS. It's actually possible to decrease your braking distance by not using ABS and controlling the brakes at the point of lock-up, at least in real life it is.
 
MSTER232
From what you have described here, I think they are driving without ABS. It's actually possible to decrease your braking distance by not using ABS and controlling the brakes at the point of lock-up, at least in real life it is.
Click to expand...

It works in gt5 aswell,i have never used abs at all,and im still competitive but i will say it helps to have a decent brake pedal(clubsports and fanatec turbo s).
I have used the controller,and i imagine it to be a pain trying to learn to brake without abs,not saying impossible,but very frustrating.
 

Latest Posts

Back