Pro Braking vs. Noob Braking

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I have a tendency to use partial brake for the reasons stated above and because partial brake, sometimes just a few %, changes the balance of the car in a way that works to help me corner. Remember that braking engages the Decel LSD which affects the balance of the car. It also shifts weight forward which can affect the front end grip/turning ability. I've had people remark to me after races, "How are you so fast when you are riding the brake all the time?"...:dunce:...lol..not realizing at times I'm only using 5-10% braking to orient the car or get it to rebalance in some way. It is one genuine advantage of using a wheel vs. DS3.

In my opinion, braking is the most overlooked aspect of fast driving on GT5, rarely talked about, and yet so critical to stable, predictable, :)fast cornering, and more importantly, setting up a smooth, fast, early exit, the real secret key to fast laps.
 
Some people think that the brakes are only used to slow the car down...

I think some Italian born plumber/Driver said that.

Luigi or Mario one or the other.

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Nice thread though guys.
 
It’s amazing to see that he is braking so late into the corner by only using 10-20% of his brake pedal to brake. He's braking abnormally late for some corners as well and still manage to pull it off using minimal partial braking. You would think that using hard full braking would get the job done, but I guess not anymore. I’m still figuring out the concept of partial braking here. Normally in real life you wouldn’t just press the brake pedal 10-20% to get the car to slow down as fast as possible right?
 
GTPLam
It’s amazing to see that he is braking so late into the corner by only using 10-20% of his brake pedal to brake. He's braking abnormally late for some corners as well and still manage to pull it off using minimal partial braking. You would think that using hard full braking would get the job done, but I guess not anymore. I’m still figuring out the concept of partial braking here. Normally in real life you wouldn’t just press the brake pedal 10-20% to get the car to slow down as fast as possible right?
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Maybe not 20%, but still less than 100%.


carracerptp
No, not when your racing fast, you do always try and give yourself some mistake room under braking but not like that or that much.

You can't make up for the waste of 20% cornering grip usage on track, if you don't use it you have lost it. 20% under the limit is wayyy low for a fast room.

The only thinking that matters is the grip the tires can give you. Just because you can use 100% bake force, doesn't mean the tires have grip for 100% bake force, they may only have grip/stopping power for 40%.

Look up "Threshold_braking" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threshold_braking
And Trail braking http://www.drivingfast.net/techniques/track-corner.htm

If you use 100% braking power from speeds that only need 60% braking power (60% is the maximum amount stopping power the tire has grip for at that speed) , ABS will come in and remove the extra 40%. If ABS is "OFF" you will go over your maximum grip the tire gives you and crash.

You almost never use 100% braking power, it's actual slower. By only using the braking force you need, you maximize the amount of grip you have, giving you more grip for cornering.

Take a front tire coming into a corner. 100% grip will be used at all times, a fast lap.

Right now it is using 100% of it's grip to slow down. Say you're using 70% of your brake pedal (If you use 100% pedal then ABS will kick in remove your extra power and stop the tires from locking up because of exceeding the maximum % of grip ).

A second later you are going slower, so... less braking power is needed to keep the tires using 100% grip/stopping force. You can now start fading off the brakes (say 50% braking power, still using 100% of the grip that the tires can give).

Now your turning into the corner....

But wait, if you are already using 100% of you tires grip to stop, you don't have any left for cornering. If you turned the steering wheel now with ABS off, you will understeer (plow) into the corner and crash.

With ABS ON, it will kick in and remove braking power for you when you start turning the wheels. Leaving your tire grip too make the corner.
Some times it will be leaving you with too much extra grip for steering or too little grip to make the corner (see ABS OFF result) .

This when you stop ABS from kicking in and start trail braking.
So you fade off the brakes more (30% say) and now your tires are only using 70% of their grip. Leaving 30% left for cornering! Now is when you would turn into the corner. Using up the "extra" 30% grip. Now your tire is using 100% of its grip for stopping and turning.

You need to judge how much grip you need to leave yourself for corners.
This is when a drive may "modulate" the brakes feeling how much grip they need to make the corner. A "Pro" will not modulate and smoothly fade off with the right amount of grip to make the corner.

Also, the more you turn the steering wheel, the more grip the front tires need. So, the more you need to fade off the brakes. You may need to start stopping sooner.

Some "PRO" drivers, drive using 99% of of the tires grip when cornering, others use 90%. The guy using 99% of his grip will be faster, but he is very close to crashing, and will wear out his tires quicker than the 90% guy.

I think any drive wasting 20% of the grip on track is not really a "PRO" driver.

Though, most of us here can't use 99% of the grip whenever we want to set a fast lap. That takes skill and track knowledge to push the limits.

EDIT: Based on a RWD car... FWD cars and 4WD/AWD cars can have added tricks.
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^^^ I think I covered the concept of tire grip / brake force.
 
GTPLam
Normally in real life you wouldn’t just press the brake pedal 10-20% to get the car to slow down as fast as possible right?
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Depends on what the situation demands. If it's just a kink, or easy chicane, 10-20% may be all you really need. Obviously, it's not likely done on something like a hairpin.
 
Machate-man
However in the Online events section here, races seem to mimic real races (Tyre wear+extremely close racing in packs), so racing conservatively by pacing the lead car would work with more success.
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This may be true. But racing conservatively doesn't mean less braking it's about keeping in the draft of the person in front to you can keep up while not pushing the car as hard in the corners to save tires. Braking less than is required for certain corner would mean you would have to brake earlier and for longer.
Which would leave you very open to being out braked at corners, in my opinion braking is just as important as accelerator control but with ABS on braking less wouldn't help you save tires and even if it did you would be so far behind that drivers they would have enough time to pit and get new tires.
 
Driving a real car fast along a road with lots off bends is not about full throttle or full brakes all of the time. You use the brakes to slow the car, but you still need to keep control. To keep control you use the brake effort appropriate to the situation. Shiny road surface? Less brake force. Off camber entry? Less braking force, you make judgements all of the time!
Burying the brake pedal is not the way to keep control. Similarly partial throttle in mid-corner will keep it balanced until you can apply full throttle.
 
Simple answer to the OP.

They don't have ABS so they don't go 100% or the wheels will lock up.
 
haitch40
Simple answer to the OP.

They don't have ABS so they don't go 100% or the wheels will lock up.
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I don't mean to single you out here (you're not the only one that said this), but I'm willing to bet anything I can fit into a trade slot that you're wrong, even though it's beside the point, because it's just not the whole answer (you are right in that if by some chance he actually wasn't using ABS, threshold braking is indeed absolutely required. Maybe ask the driver?).

What's that trail-braking stuff all about? Why would anyone do that? Brush braking? Are all the fast drivers just doing it out of habit, or drinking the Kool-Aid? My point is that the OP wanted to know about that, too.

You don't have to believe me - but I can tell you that carracerptp and johnnypenso know what they're talking about, FWIW.

Put it another way - your real car probably has ABS. If you were driving it fast, do you think the best way to corner quickly and smoothly would be to slam your foot down on the brake pedal and activate ABS fully every time you need to slow down? Even for a medium or high speed corner? What happens with the car when you do that?
 
My spouse calls it "dabbing at the brakes all the time".

(And it sounds suspiciously like how my father used to accuse my sister of "riding the brakes" - in real life that is.)

I think it's a matter of when it's called for and in what car.
I find that "dabbing at the brakes" can be very very bad in some cars!!!!

But it's definitely good to keep up momentum at times...
I'm no speed demon, but sometimes it's better to brake just a little when in some turns than to let off too much...
Sort of a balancing act I guess.

That said, I think you can do this and still not be very fast. (Me being an example. I'm certainly no "pro".)
Or you can NOT do this, and be faster than some people anyway...

Depends on what you can do, and who you're competing against really, I think.
Add: and what kind of cars!

PS: I don't much like the subject title for this topic, as I fully expected the topic to be discussing brake-checking and people complaining about people ahead of them "braking too early".
:lol:
(ie: those are the things that come to mind when someone says "noob braking")
 
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The triangle lighting up at the bottom next to the gear indicator is the ASM indicator? If using ASM it's unlikely that the ABS is off. The car seems to be quite heavily tuned too considering the gearbox whine so maybe he is trying to stabilize the car with simultaneous applying of accelerator and brakes?
 
After reviewing the video, I see that, in braking for the first hairpin, he is only traveling at ~117mph; You don't need heavy braking to decelerate to the required ~60mph for the corner.

Also, have you considered what tyres he's running on?

Racing softs+appropriate braking = more laps per set

compared to

Racing softs+maximum braking = less laps per set

Finally, if he were using something around the sports hard-medium range of tyre, I believe he would be going easy on the throttle as well. Further proof that he's using racing softs.

P.S.:It says in his comments that he used racing softs, therefore requiring less braking power for each corner due to the higher grip.
 
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Was just reading this book by Ross Bentley and have to agree with JohnnyPenso -- It's about balance. It seems to me that slamming on the brakes would not be conducive to a smooth, early, fast exit. The harder you brake, the more the car will be unbalanced. Trail braking seems to be key.

I do agree you need some "reserve," for all the reasons stated above.

Still haven't heard from McClaren about the chicken, though. Is the chicken supposed to be cooked? Your wife isn't one of those who knits sweaters for chickens, I hope. :) Love your reviews in Car of the Week.

Back to the topic: Book is called "Speed secrets." Summary: Brake smoothly into early apex, throttle smoothly out to max speed on straight.

Sebastian Vettel can still beat me sometimes, though.:lol:
 
I rarele use 100% brake. Mostly it's not needed and a car is more responsive without braking like a maniac, and secondly, I risk pushing my pedals away when I brake to hard :p
 
McClarenDesign
The reason they don't use 100% is because they're saving it for later.

Sounds silly, but stick with me on this one. Through a corner, especially in a race, you're making millions of calculations per second through all stages of the turn. You're watching the coarse (turn, apex, exit), the cars (what lines, speed, momentum), and as such your movements and decisions can fluxuate. You'll notice a lack of this when the competition starts dive-bombing into turns, or develops a case of target fixation. This is partially why some racers are only marginally faster/slower than their competition. They can't break free.

Knowing this, you've got to use everything, and I mean everything to your advantage. In a turn, you aren't using just your brakes. You're also using the tires, suspension, and body of the car. By saving the brakes, and modulating them as witnessed, drivers are able to judge where to be when, and what to do next. Those guys know where their competition is going to be before they do. It's like the Force. They save that 20% so there's something left when something else goes wrong, such as a spin or wreck at the exit of the turn. They make up for that 20% in other ways, yet never actually driving at 100%.

Driving at 100%, even braking, never has positive consequences. Locking up into a corner is never a good idea. Tires get worn, parts get broken, and if everyone were driving 100%, more people would be killed (not in the game, of coarse). What makes people like Sir Jackie Stewart, Michael Schumacher, and Ayrton Senna so great is that they could drive closer to 100%, for longer, and with the exception of Senna, live to tell about it.

Find the balance. Learn to induce. Maximize your advantage.

Have paradise, and a chicken. (wife's advice)

GTP Racing School
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Wow Mcclaren, didn't know you could give such great advice...damn bro! :lol:
 
I have found more recently (as a DFGT user) that I always keep light on the brakes. The car stays more balanced for the corner and still slows just as fast. I've noticed on sharper corners, this 'reserve' brake power is very nice to have. During a race, to insure I can get the fastest line through and out of the corner. It's often much safer than risking a mistake that could loose you a good couple of seconds on the cars in front.
 
I haven't read all the replies, but I'd say there is a fair chance that what you are seeing is the differential in force as the foot rotates and applies pressure to the throttle. When that happens, some of the pressure that was pushing down on the brake transfers to the side of the foot pressing on the throttle. Thus, seeing the decrease in pressure on the brake. Of course that dividing line runs more diagonal, so the rotation isn't straight side-to-side. With that being said. it is possible that some is intentional. When I brake, I have noticed that if i get the point right, I can trail brake a bit more, allowing me to go a bit deeper into the corner, and carry a bit more pace thru the center.

The only real way to find out, is to speak to them.
 
It's simple really, going around a corner you want to bring as much speed in without understeering.

You go fast in use 100% brakes and you'll understeer like mad. Go slow in and you can hug the apex, tap the brakes for a bit of oversteer and put the power down earlier.

It's as simple as saying 'slow in, fast out' that's the technique he's using and it works.
 
One benefit is tyre conservation.

However the main reason he probably does it is for faster corner entry.
Just tapping the brakes shifts the weight of the car forwards enough for you to oversteer.

I remember watching a thing about F1 where they discuss Schumachers driving technique. They said that he prefered his car to have a set-up inclined to slight under-steer because it made the car more forgiving when accelerating out of the corner. However the downside of using a understeer setup is that it means you have to use a lower corner entry speed. To get around this, Schumacher was very positive on the front end at corner entry, by using plenty of trail braking to shift the weight onto the front wheels and inducing slight oversteer.

This is said to be the fastest way to drive a car. The problem is it can be quite difficult to perfect, especially when you are not actually in a moving car, as it is much harder to feel the limit. Even so, doing what the guy does in the video by just applying 10-20% brake whilst turning in allows for an entry speed of 5-10 mph more.

In terms of when you actually need to slow down, the quickest way is to go 100% to the limit of the tyres, and then slowly come off them. A lot of people make the mistake of just jumping off the brakes. What this does is cause the car to act like a pendulum, where the weight shifts forward really heavily, and then goes back the other way. This means that you induce understeer at entry which is not what you want, just tapping the brakes to 10% after heavy braking can counter this.
 
I remember playing a game a few years ago, and there was a track briefing where you were told what speed to take each corner (60mph turn 3, 20mph turn 4, etc), I think he may know exactly what speed he wants to take each corner and modulates brake and throttle to get as close to that speed. BUT the other reasons given do sound much better.
 
I rarely race with ABS on but what I've learned is that when braking in a straight line with ABS it's best to go 100%, but if you're turning even slightly while braking, much lower brake pressure will make you turn better and also slow down faster. The first turn at Daytona road course is a very good place to try this, when I was learning that course for racing it in WSGTC, I learned that braking a bit harder at first (still not 100% because you're turning left even before you start to brake), and then when you come closer and closer and start turning the wheel more and more, braking less and less brings the best result. If you brake too much here you'll get understeer and go wide.

With ABS it's quite hard to read the car, sometimes you end up in weird limbo where the car feels like it's floating above the ground but it's still not sliding in the normal way. Without ABS it feels like the tyres are constantly on the road and the feedback with the car is 'uninterrupted' compared to ABS. You can feel it if you deliberately make your car slide, and then in the middle of the slide suddenly go to 100% brake pressure, the car sort of stops sliding and the physics feel all awkward, but that's an another topic.

Speaking of braking I think it's important to discuss braking in racing. Many racers online moronically never change their braking when they're racing close to each other. If you're running 2 metres from someone else you can't continue to drive like a robot and brake on your normal braking points just like you'd be running a hotlap. If you're running a race car (like in a SuperGT league I'm driving in) running behind someone will make your downforce reduce and because of that your braking distances become longer, so you'll almost surely run into the guy in front unless you adjust your driving.

What I do when I'm running a couple metres behind someone is I try to use braking as a big of an advantage as I can. Maybe 25 metres before the normal braking point I let off the gas, to let the other guy gain maybe 1-2 metres more on me, then brake a little bit earlier than normal, but not with 100% brake pressure! I adjust my distance to him by braking a bit less, so I gain the 2-4 metres again, and that way I first of all don't hit him, and second of all can be right under his bumper again at the exit of the corner.

Of course I do this only when I'm too far back to consider an out braking maneuver (or if the corner is unsuitable), but even staying within striking distance for a long time and constantly showing your nose to the other guy usually leads to an overtake eventually.
 
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Thanks a lot for the input guys. I’m attempting to drive a lot more with ABS OFF now and can tell you it’s a lot harder than I expected. I can’t imagine people trying to drive ABS OFF with a DS3 controller (Modulating + downshifting + turning at the same time with just thumb and finger)!! It must be nearly dam impossible haha

I’m also taking a look more at the time trial vids/replays posted in the GTP WRS section to get an idea of how to drive better with ABS OFF.

I just have a few more questions I want to get out of the way before I head back to improving my driving.

1. Is the threshold for braking the same at every speed, like will it be the same at 150mph, 100mph, than at 50mph?? What about will the threshold be the same on ABS1?

2. Is a brake bias of 3/1 in ABS OFF more effective than a brake bias of 3/1 on ABS 1? Or should I just change it back to 5/5 every time I go back to ABS 1?

3. Is the braking point increased in ABS OFF than ABS 1 as in do I have to brake earlier with ABS OFF or is the brake point the same?
 
GTPLam
I’m also taking a look more at the time trial vids/replays posted in the GTP WRS section to get an idea of how to drive better with ABS OFF.

I just have a few more questions I want to get out of the way before I head back to improving my driving.

1. Is the threshold for braking the same at every speed, like will it be the same at 150mph, 100mph, than at 50mph?? What about will the threshold be the same on ABS1?

2. Is a brake bias of 3/1 in ABS OFF more effective than a brake bias of 3/1 on ABS 1? Or should I just change it back to 5/5 every time I go back to ABS 1?

3. Is the braking point increased in ABS OFF than ABS 1 as in do I have to brake earlier with ABS OFF or is the brake point the same?
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Can't answer these authoritatively (I rarely drive with ABS off, but I think I will be when I can devote time to it ... and I definitely want to play with the clutch and shifter more at some point), but:

0. Most WRS replays will be using ABS. There's a few cases where I've seen someone, or had a bash myself, at turning off ABS - for example, on an FF car to get the 🤬 thing to turn - but it's usually used for consistency. That doesn't mean there's not threshold/trail braking in there anyway, though 👍

Two of the best ABS-0 videos I've come across:

[post=6826868]week 2 driving skill competition - XKR @ trial mountain[/post]

[post=6077475]Nordschleife Lap Times[/post]

1. No, it should vary, IIRC (to my knowledge, the threshold gets lower at lower speeds). However, it should not be too dissimilar to the activation point of ABS=1, but what happens just after that is a bit different :sly: (*screech* *BANG*). DS3 gets some rumble feedback at threshold; roof cam gets more obvious tire squeal noise, BTW.

2. The EBD thing GT5 does makes the bias results quite different in extremity. Rear-biased setups pretty much only work with ABS on; it'll usually kill you with ABS off. You may also well want lower bias numbers over all as well as a higher front-to-rear ratio (e.g. 2/1, 3/0, etc, rather than 6/4, say). So, er, yes.

3. Sorta-maybe-yes-maybe-not. Spot on threshold should pull you up as fast or faster, unless you have to turn at the same time; it's obviously much harder to be consistent. Check out Cadence Braking for another short but interesting perspective (I'm not recommending trying it, necessarily, just how it compares/contrasts with ABS, turning, and Threshold Braking).
 
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GTPLam
Is the threshold for braking the same at every speed, like will it be the same at 150mph, 100mph, than at 50mph?? What about will the threshold be the same on ABS1?

2. Is a brake bias of 3/1 in ABS OFF more effective than a brake bias of 3/1 on ABS 1? Or should I just change it back to 5/5 every time I go back to ABS 1?

3. Is the braking point increased in ABS OFF than ABS 1 as in do I have to brake earlier with ABS OFF or is the brake point the same?
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As a long time non ABS user. I'll also have a stab at answering these questions:

1. The faster you are going the higher the threshold is. For example coming into Mulsanne corner at La Sarthe from high speeds, you should be able to hold 100% brake for a second before easing it out. The slower you go the lower the threshold is, so in order to brake effectively you have to stay on the threshold. (means braking up to the threshold then easing out as you feel the car begin to get unsettled.)

Makes sense really- the faster the brake disc is spinning, the more energy/force it'll take to stop.

2. I'm unsure of this. It depends whether the bias allows you to reach threshold at most speeds. ABS will hold you at threshold (effectively, not quite though), and will lower the brake pressure if you start to turn. So with ABS on, you may be better at a higher setting. Bare in mind the handling changes by changing brake bias though. :)

3. Brake point should be the same. Many have reported that you can stop faster with ABS off even if you lock up (go and do the braking license tests to be sure). Although certain corners give you a distinct disadvantage. For example turn 1 at Suzuka you can't turn in on the brakes as well as someone with ABS, so in order to get through the corner safely, you might want to brake in a straight line ( earlier than someone without.)

Hope this helps. 👍
 
GTPLam
2. Is a brake bias of 3/1 in ABS OFF more effective than a brake bias of 3/1 on ABS 1? Or should I just change it back to 5/5 every time I go back to ABS 1?
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To answer this specific question, 5/5 is not always the ideal brake bias with ABS on. It works with some cars, but others prefer a rear bias and some front. Cars that tend to want to swing around under braking work better with a 6/4 or 5/4 etc. and cars that are very stable under braking can go with a 4/5 or 4/6. I believe once you get a car tuned well, most brake settings should be clustered around 5/5, it's only the extreme situations that require extreme brake setups. My philosophy is if I need more than 2 notches apart in the brake bias, something is wrong with my tune.
 
OK8
The first turn at Daytona road course is a very good place to try this, when I was learning that course for racing it in WSGTC, I learned that braking a bit harder at first (still not 100% because you're turning left even before you start to brake), and then when you come closer and closer and start turning the wheel more and more, braking less and less brings the best result. If you brake too much here you'll get understeer and go wide.
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If this is true with ABS OFF as well, this may be the greatest advice ever on GT5 yet
 

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