Project Motor Racing General Discussion

[Pearl Jam]

I don’t think I’ve ever seen more than 2 or 3 people in the online lobbies, it is simply a barren wasteland. Finding it hard to even fire up the game nowadays as there’s nothing pulling me in that other sims don’t do better, shame really but it’s still early on I guess.

 

[hawkeyez]

I don’t think I’ve ever seen more than 2 or 3 people in the online lobbies, it is simply a barren wasteland. Finding it hard to even fire up the game nowadays as there’s nothing pulling me in that other sims don’t do better, shame really but it’s still early on I guess.

Big deciding factor for me. What’s with all these racing games encouraging people to race by themselves against AI? PMR sounds like a dumpster fire online, GT7 you can’t earn a substantial amount of credits racing with others, you must race AI to earn good money. Idk seems so odd.

 

[MagpieRacer]

Big deciding factor for me. What’s with all these racing games encouraging people to race by themselves against AI? PMR sounds like a dumpster fire online, GT7 you can’t earn a substantial amount of credits racing with others, you must race AI to earn good money. Idk seems so odd.

Single player is still the way a majority of gamers will spend their time, not everyone wants to, or can, play online. So yes they will encourage people to race AI because that's how most people will spend their time in racing games.

 

[YOMISMODEMI]

highly doubt the majority of people play offline...there's no way to know for sure?

 

[Beezer215]

Yes, a majority of the people play offline.

 

[YOMISMODEMI]

...because I say so

 

[Fossilized]

Full and fair warning... I gave PC2 a whole year before getting it. They were STILL bringing out updates for nearly another YEAR, and they still left it with a fairly significant list of unfixed bugs.

And to be quite honest, even though the bugs never broke the game, the thing that made single player a complete waste of time was what I spoke about earlier. Utterly unbalanced AI, you had to spend quite a bit of time resetting the AI level to give a consistent level of challenge.

And then utterly unbalanced care and attention to the cars. Some (as I've read about PMR) are very nice to drive, some were utter nightmares. This got barely any post-launch attention. Some were fixable with a tune, but if fixable that easy, why didn't SMS update the stock tune?

And some NEVER could be tamed. So something was terribly wrong with the basic model. And never got patched.

The two things that radically effect single player. Are all the cars equally drivable (within the constraints of their class type) and is the AI consistent and predictable?

Don't get me wrong, multiplayer online could work around or ignore the issues (just pick the better cars, avoid the weather problems where some setting produced red flag conditions in a game that had no red flags, and online bypasses the AI!).

But the single player mode was an exercise in frustration, and NEVER got better.

So if anyone is asking about getting the game in the anticipation of prompt patching to fix basic problems, after the massive layoffs just after launch, I wouldn't expect any major change from SMS's behavior in the past. If you take just Ian Bell's console games (two Shifts, three Project Cars games) the glacial pace of polishing is the one consistent trend.

I'm waiting AT LEAST a year.

 

[MagpieRacer]

highly doubt the majority of people play offline...there's no way to know for sure?

Well we can use the Steam, Xbox and Playstation trophy/achievement unlock percentages to use as a gauge. As the online license is a requirement to gain access to ranked and social online racing in PMR.

On Steam and Xbox, approximately 20% of the player base have unlocked this, on Playstation it's 17%.

So yes, from this evidence we can deduce that there is a strong possibility that the majority (80+%) of players are focussing on the single player/offline elements of the game.

While we're at it, let's look at Gran Turismo 7, 81% of players have started the menu books, the single player element. 11% have completed a race in Sport mode. Just 2.4% have done 50 sport mode races.

 

[Fossilized]

highly doubt the majority of people play offline...there's no way to know for sure?

Not immediately with PMR, but basically every sim that HAS allowed players to peek at the numbers, it's quite shocking how few play online. The achievements quite often show the percentages of players that reach them and the numbers for 'completed first online race' are as low as 5% with some games, rarely above 30% in any game on console.

The awards for participation in online can't really be fudged, so if only a fraction achieve even the basic 'complete an online race', that should tell you something....

 

[zaxs]

For me, this is still not playable game.
On any field.

 

[hawkeyez]

Single player is still the way a majority of gamers will spend their time, not everyone wants to, or can, play online. So yes they will encourage people to race AI because that's how most people will spend their time in racing games.

I guess I don’t know most people because most people I know play online and rarely play single player. Nothing wrong with single player just saying look at that. PMR is dead online (not good) and GT7 actually encourages people to go it alone. I don’t know about you, but I’ve had incredible races with friends in a league versus anything against an AI so not sure why people would prefer to race against AI.

Not saying they should take single player out, but maybe put a little more focus into all aspects. Why do I have to race alone to earn credits? What’s the difference if I’m earning with friends or earning alone?

As for PMR I keep checking in and hearing that online is DEAD confirms my decision, I wanted the game to be good but it’s obviously failing.

 

[MagpieRacer]

I guess I don’t know most people because most people I know play online and rarely play single player. Nothing wrong with single player just saying look at that. PMR is dead online (not good) and GT7 actually encourages people to go it alone. I don’t know about you, but I’ve had incredible races with friends in a league versus anything against an AI so not sure why people would prefer to race against AI.

Not saying they should take single player out, but maybe put a little more focus into all aspects. Why do I have to race alone to earn credits? What’s the difference if I’m earning with friends or earning alone?

As for PMR I keep checking in and hearing that online is DEAD confirms my decision, I wanted the game to be good but it’s obviously failing.

Check out my post here with percentage based evidence of the majority, or most people, playing single player over multiplayer.

Well we can use the Steam, Xbox and Playstation trophy/achievement unlock percentages to use as a gauge. As the online license is a requirement to gain access to ranked and social online racing in PMR.

On Steam and Xbox, approximately 20% of the player base have unlocked this, on Playstation it's 17%.

So yes, from this evidence we can deduce that there is a strong possibility that the majority (80+%) of players are focussing on the single player/offline elements of the game.

While we're at it, let's look at Gran Turismo 7, 81% of players have started the menu books, the single player element. 11% have completed a race in Sport mode. Just 2.4% have done 50 sport mode races.

There's many games you can do this with but ultimately, the point that single player is critical to the success of a game long term among the majority of players is valid and, based on the evidence, true

Even Le Mans Ultimate on PC, which doesn't have championships or a career mode and is currently completely focussed on the online experience, less than 50% (48% to be specific) have completed an online race.

I'm not asking you to like it, but the evidence is there to support the majority of people preferring offline and single player gameplay, which has been true for generations. Yeah you may well be able to have good or better experiences playing online in leagues and with friends, but a lot of people don't want that, they just want to play a game and have fun doing it without time pressures or whatever.

 

[SpacedInvader]

For me, this is still not playable game.
On any field.

It's OK if you like hotlapping/timetrialling in a diverse range of cars, and as a change of scene from GT7, but it's so hit-and-miss, even at the individual car level, that it's laughable. Needs a major revamp whenever they drop the GT500 dlc.
I've reached the conclusion game devs are maybe 'clever' in an OCD kinda way, but right thickos when it comes to commonsense. Can't see the trees for the forest (or rather, vice versa, they see the trees but not the forest), and I'd guess many sim aficionados are similar.
After the botched launch it was clear they should've pivoted quickly to an easy-to-play-on-pad strategy to rescue sales, as it should be easier, much easier, to do that than to continue on the 'purity' pathway, especially when you're needing to make drastic cuts in staff. After that launch they were never going to satisfy the simcrowd, even less so after shedding devs, but, hey, we are where we are.
I'd still advise them to chase console-controller players, and maybe ditch online races completely, and they might make their money back, but you can guarantee they won't. If they made it as easy to drive as GT7 they'd be fine. Even FH physics would smash it for them. But they're too clever, I reckon, so really dumb...

 

[Jezza819]

I'm not asking you to like it, but the evidence is there to support the majority of people preferring offline and single player gameplay, which has been true for generations. Yeah you may well be able to have good or better experiences playing online in leagues and with friends, but a lot of people don't want that, they just want to play a game and have fun doing it without time pressures or whatever.

Yeah that describes me. I've never played online and have no desire to. I would avoid any game that has an online requirement.

 

[Fossilized]

To want to participate in online, you've got to have the stomach for being beat (badly!) at first, and maybe for quite a long time..!

And with that, we come to the difference between 'gamers' and 'racers'.

Racers play the game because they love the SPORT. Gamers play a game because they love to WIN. It's a lot easier to set the AI to a low enough level that you get an easy win than it is to find a room the ranking system will allow you in where you're guaranteed the win.

To a racer, playing the sport is sufficient. And most are mature enough to realize you got to pay your dues, and maybe you’re NEVER going to podium in the top splits. It's like golf... millions play it, and will NEVER shoot a great round, never make the PGA, probably won't even win at club level. But they play, at great expense and frustration DESPITE all that!

The gamer generally isn't mature enough for all that. It's WIN NOW or move on to the next game...

 

[SpacedInvader]

To want to participate in online, you've got to have the stomach for being beat (badly!) at first, and maybe for quite a long time..!

And with that, we come to the difference between 'gamers' and 'racers'.

Racers play the game because they love the SPORT. Gamers play a game because they love to WIN. It's a lot easier to set the AI to a low enough level that you get an easy win than it is to find a room the ranking system will allow you in where you're guaranteed the win.

To a racer, playing the sport is sufficient. And most are mature enough to realize you got to pay your dues, and maybe you’re NEVER going to podium in the top splits. It's like golf... millions play it, and will NEVER shoot a great round, never make the PGA, probably won't even win at club level. But they play, at great expense and frustration DESPITE all that!

The gamer generally isn't mature enough for all that. It's WIN NOW or move on to the next game...

I think those gamers have the maturity to know it's just a pastime to kill time, like doing crosswords or sudoku.

Those racers you speak of who see it as a sport must be sthg new. A 'sport' you play sitting down for hours on end as your ass gets fatter and fatter? Even darts and snooker need a bit of walking about, and before anyone shouts 'racecar drivers', well, those guys work out loads and, like jockeys, lose the gig if they get too chunksome. Can we introduce that for these online 'racers'?

No. It's not a sport, and anyone who thinks it is is kidding themselves.

It's just a game. For gamers. Anyone who's ever played real sport seriously knows that.

 

[r_outsider]

I used to play online. Did the best I could and while not completely okay with that, could accept my results were my problem but mostly enjoyed a good race. No, what chased me and likely many others off are the unhinged sociopaths who have nothing better to do than wreck races and abuse people in the chat channels and messaging apps. There have been cases in iRacing where players have been tracked down and stalked and abused IRL. So, games that don't have much going on for single player don't get a lot of attention from me.

And no, racing online has nothing on being wheel to wheel in real life.

 

[MagpieRacer]

I think those gamers have the maturity to know it's just a pastime to kill time, like doing crosswords or sudoku.

Those racers you speak of who see it as a sport must be sthg new. A 'sport' you play sitting down for hours on end as your ass gets fatter and fatter? Even darts and snooker need a bit of walking about, and before anyone shouts 'racecar drivers', well, those guys work out loads and, like jockeys, lose the gig if they get too chunksome. Can we introduce that for these online 'racers'?

No. It's not a sport, and anyone who thinks it is is kidding themselves.

It's just a game. For gamers. Anyone who's ever played real sport seriously knows that.

eSports exists, whether you feel it qualifies under the definition of sport is of course up for debate but eSports is a thing that people take seriously and in certain circles, carries significant financial prizes and/or possible pathways to real racing. So your insult to those people in your post is extremely contentious, unjustified and walking a very thin line.

 

[SpacedInvader]

eSports exists, whether you feel it qualifies under the definition of sport is of course up for debate but eSports is a thing that people take seriously and in certain circles, carries significant financial prizes and/or possible pathways to real racing. So your insult to those people in your post is extremely contentious, unjustified and walking a very thin line.

I was just replying to the guy calling 'gamers' immature for allegedly needing to win all the time. Which isn't at all the case. (Or maybe you disagree, as I note you fail to pick up on this out-and-out slur against 'gamers'?)

Yes, you can argue the toss over the definition of 'sport', but I'm firmly in the camp that says racing sims aren't that. I'd bet good money 99.9% of online 'sportsmen' would struggle to climb a flight of stairs without getting out of breath. Opinions obviously differ, but the guys at the GTWS Finals hardly look like athletes, do they? They look like typical gamers to me. Let me know when PMR starts offering these financial prizes and pathways to real racing anyway, and I may revise my thinking on it.

 

[MagpieRacer]

I was just replying to the guy calling 'gamers' immature for allegedly needing to win all the time. Which isn't at all the case. (Or maybe you disagree, as I note you fail to pick up on this out-and-out slur against 'gamers'?)

Yes, you can argue the toss over the definition of 'sport', but I'm firmly in the camp that says racing sims aren't that. I'd bet good money 99.9% of online 'sportsmen' would struggle to climb a flight of stairs without getting out of breath. Opinions obviously differ, but the guys at the GTWS Finals hardly look like athletes, do they? They look like typical gamers to me. Let me know when PMR starts offering these financial prizes and pathways to real racing anyway, and I may revise my thinking on it.

There's a difference between a generalisation that flirts with being insulting and out and out insulting an entire subset of gamers with disparaging remarks, and then doubling down on it. You're free to have and voice an opinion, but I draw the line at straight up insults to do that.

PMR obviously isn't, and probably will never be, in a position to offer prizes and pathways, partly because it's new and mostly because there's about 20 people playing it online*.

To throw an example of that out that isn't Gran Turismo or PMR related, the iRacing eNASCAR championship has a half million dollar prize pool with the winner walking away with 100k of that. And of course there are plenty of examples of sim racers racing competitively online and getting breaks in real world racing because of it, Jimmy Broadbent, James Baldwin, Chris Lulham, Jann Mardenborough, Lucas Ordonez and William Byron just to name the obvious ones. Competitive sim racing in the online NLS series, can also count towards obtaining your real permit B racing license to compete on the Nordshcleife.

None of these people fall under your outdated viewpoint.

*Exaggeration, obviously.

 

[SpacedInvader]

There's a difference between a generalisation that flirts with being insulting and out and out insulting an entire subset of gamers with disparaging remarks, and then doubling down on it. You're free to have and voice an opinion, but I draw the line at straight up insults to do that.

PMR obviously isn't, and probably will never be, in a position to offer prizes and pathways, partly because it's new and mostly because there's about 20 people playing it online*.

To throw an example of that out that isn't Gran Turismo or PMR related, the iRacing eNASCAR championship has a half million dollar prize pool with the winner walking away with 100k of that. And of course there are plenty of examples of sim racers racing competitively online and getting breaks in real world racing because of it, Jimmy Broadbent, James Baldwin, Chris Lulham, Jann Mardenborough, Lucas Ordonez and William Byron just to name the obvious ones. Competitive sim racing in the online NLS series, can also count towards obtaining your real permit B racing license to compete on the Nordshcleife.

None of these people fall under your outdated viewpoint.

*Exaggeration, obviously.

Those guys are in the 0.1% I clearly mentioned. I never said 100%, just 99.9. (Maybe I should've said 'generally', like the guy i was responding to slagging off 'gamers'.) Don't claim otherwise. 99.9% leaves room for plenty of exceptions. Clearly not 'an entire subset of gamers', certainly not at the scale of GT7 user numbers. Be consistent. Make sense. If I'd meant 100% I'd have said 100%.
And you can argue the toss over what constitutes 'sport' all day, even call coin-tossing a sport if you like, but we all know 'outdated viewpoints' are back in vogue. Prize money doesn't make something a sport, is the lottery a sport, does buying a ticket make you an athlete? And you can bet your backside I'll double down on outdated viewpoints if they're right. GT7 is a game for gamers, not a sport for sportsmen. Ditto for PMR. Last word I'm sayin' on the matter.

 

[MagpieRacer]

Those guys are in the 0.1% I clearly mentioned. I never said 100%, just 99.9. (Maybe I should've said 'generally', like the guy i was responding to slagging off 'gamers'.) Don't claim otherwise. 99.9% leaves room for plenty of exceptions.
And you can argue the toss over what constitutes 'sport' all day, even call coin-tossing a sport if you like, but we all know 'outdated viewpoints' are back in vogue. And you can bet your backside I'll double down on them if they're right. GT7 is a game for gamers, not a sport for sportsmen. Ditto for PMR. Last word I'm sayin' on the matter.

Outdated viewpoints are not back in vogue, they belong very firmly in the past.

I haven't questioned your ability to form an opinion, not arguing with you over validity of eSports in the world of athletes. I am however telling you to back off the demeaning insults.

The point that was being made in the first place anyway was to do with someone's desire to see games not focus on single player, despite that being the way the majority percentage of players play (backed up with evidence). The realm of competitive online racing, whilst strong in and of itself, isn't the majority crowd of people playing racing games.

 

[SpacedInvader]

Outdated viewpoints are not back in vogue, they belong very firmly in the past.

Not always. You sound like a progressive. You're gonna have a bad reality check in a couple of years' time, if you're in the UK or Europe (if in the US you're already experiencing it...) Think immigration, think trans issues, think welfare spending, think monstrous bloated public sector and taxes at crazy levels, and on and on. The old ways are coming back in vogue. But you keep believing it won't happen. Until it does...

I haven't questioned your ability to form an opinion, not arguing with you over validity of eSports in the world of athletes. I am however telling you to back off the demeaning insults.

What demeaning insults? Seriously. Is calling people 'immature' for not being interested in online racing a demeaning insult, or not? If not, why not? Be specific.

The point that was being made in the first place anyway was to do with someone's desire to see games not focus on single player, despite that being the way the majority percentage of players play (backed up with evidence). The realm of competitive online racing, whilst strong in and of itself, isn't the majority crowd of people playing racing games.

We know. Which is why the guy suddenly deciding to slag off singleplayer users (in general) for being immature was such a strange tangent.

 

[hawkeyez]

Check out my post here with percentage based evidence of the majority, or most people, playing single player over multiplayer.

I don’t doubt that, but I just don’t see it amongst friends. We like our hangout times when we can. I enjoy a good single player experience paired with good multiplayer experience.

I can entertain myself at home just like others can, but I don’t enjoy that all of the time. It’s like going to the park everyday and playing catch, with yourself. Which can be fun, for a little while.

I don’t necessarily agree with developers “encouraging” the single player aspect. Why not just encourage both. In GT7 if I could be earning the same in single or multi, I’d be very happy.

As for PMR, since the lobbies are dead by the sounds of it, I’d feel like I’m paying full price for half the game.