Pros/Cons of a fully auto tranny

[AlexGTV]

Seing that very seldom cars come with fully automated transmission but rather are simply clutchless I wonder why is it that so.

Economy reasons, performance issues? Why on 2011 a driver with money would choose to change the gears manually?

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Control.

A computer will be more consistent than a human when it comes to shifting and can extract the most theoretical performance possible out of the car in terms of acceleration. That being said, having manual control over what gear the car is in gives greater control as you KNOW when the car will be in what gear... Because you tell it to.

 

[homeforsummer]

And fun, for many people. Myself and many others here get a lot of satisfaction from choosing the gears ourselves, especially if the manual 'box you're using is a good one. In the same way you can derive joy from great steering or pedal response, a good gearbox is a joy to use.

You also mention economy, and I'm aware that a number of hypermilers still prefer manual transmissions as they're significantly more efficient when used correctly (not to mention generally lighter) than your usual torque-converter automatic. Dual-clutch transmissions have closed the gap though and some are both quicker and more efficient than manuals, but then for the most part they're several thousand dollars more expensive too.

 

[AlexGTV]

And fun, for many people. Myself and many others here get a lot of satisfaction from choosing the gears ourselves, especially if the manual 'box you're using is a good one. In the same way you can derive joy from great steering or pedal response, a good gearbox is a joy to use.

I can see the fun part in it. It's the same I believe of why the trend in the 80's for fully digitized instruments didn't catch on. Rather today they are complimentary to the traditional speedometers. Better visualization.

Control.

A computer will be more consistent than a human when it comes to shifting and can extract the most theoretical performance possible out of the car in terms of acceleration. That being said, having manual control over what gear the car is in gives greater control as you KNOW when the car will be in what gear... Because you tell it to.

I didn't get you mate. Your start seems to support that automatic is better but the conclusion ends with the driver knowing better. I'm confused, can you elaborate?

 

[Rotary Junkie]

I didn't get you mate. Your start seems to support that automatic is better but the conclusion ends with the driver knowing better. I'm confused, can you elaborate?

I'm saying that from a purely hypothetical performance standpoint a fully automatic transmission is capable of being faster and more consistent than a human doing the same, however, it's a bit different in practice. Being able to vary your shift schedule at will allows, if anything, greater concentration on the rest of your input instead of wondering when the next shift will happen and being ready to counteract it if needed.

 

[Jim Prower]

On the other hand, monster motors of over 1,100HP typically use autos or planetaries like the Lenco for durability purposes. These usually have a manual control of some sort, so they're still human-actuated: a common musclecar trick is to hold the tranny in the low ranges and shift up in the meat of the powerband. Race cars have "Manual" shift bodies that don't shift automatically. Lencos are typically either lever-shifted or Air-Shifted.

Then we have the cluched autos, the SMG and DCTs. These basically take the moving of the shift lever and clutch away from the user - to some extent. In auto mode, these tend to be...not so great, but there's those paddles behind the steering wheel...and if it's programmed right, it'll let you bounce it off the rev limiter or upshift right when you want it to.

Ideally. In practice...it's hit or miss.

Then you have the traditional slushboxes. These are the transmissions for the lazy mass of the population who don't care to know what their car is actually doing. Has a fluid coupling called a torque converter, usually with a lockup clutch to improve efficiency in high gear, usually at about 30 mi/h. Sometimes they have buttons or paddles - bizarrely, GM has shift buttons on the stalk in GMT900 trucks. Buttons which rarely pay attention to the driver. These cars are the reason that we like manual transmissions. They decide what's right for us. Y'know, like Politicians.

And then there's the third-pedal trannies. Lightweight, involving, engaging, and reasonably simple to work on, the good ol' stick-shift is actually also fairly inexpensive, particularly in an economy car. Because they're less expensive than automated manuals, manualated automatics and full-blown drag car trannies, they're also available in cars that most of us drive. It's true, DCTs are starting to show up in less-expensive cars, but there's something about actually moving something that's real and mechanical that pushing a button can't match.

Maybe it's because it actually feels like you accomplish something. I mean..."ooh, look. I can flick a paddle. I can push a button. I feel like my fine motor skills are like, Chuck Norris good, man."

Trust me. I still stall from time to time in situations where I'm trying to really creep the car. It's that feeling of accomplishment when you get it right - there's an appeal to that. Like you've learned something that puts you ahead of Joe Camry.

It's a good feeling.

 

[Keef]

Seing that very seldom cars come with fully automated transmission but rather are simply clutchless I wonder why is it that so.

What do you mean my "fully automated" and "clutchless"?

Fully automatic "slushbox" transmissions are still the norm as they were 40 years ago, though now they come with flappy paddles that make the driver think he's "shifting gears" when he is only telling the transmission's computer where to send the fluid next. Your average auto box is clutchless in the traditional sense.

I don't understand what you mean by "seldom come with fully automated transmissions", because most cars actually do come with fully automated transmissions, and they are indeed clutchless.

 

[AlexGTV]

I don't understand what you mean by "seldom come with fully automated transmissions", because most cars actually do come with fully automated transmissions, and they are indeed clutchless.

I mean most high end cars come with paddles and thus aren't fully automated. The gear changes still has to be done manually. As far as I know the definition for fully automated transmission is that the driver has no input to the transmission.

 

[niky]

Many paddle-shifted transmissions have a fully automatic mode.

If you're asking: "Why not eliminate paddles altogether", then there are a lot of reasons.

There's the "fun" aspect of it, important on a sportscar, but not really important for your typical Honda Civic or Honda Fit. (i.e.: not important to people who actually buy brand new economy cars... which is why most cars nowadays are automatic)

There's also the "control" aspect. A transmission has no eyes to see the road with, and will not always know when it's best to stay in a higher gear or a lower gear, or when it is safer to shift early or shift late.

Then there's the "marketing" aspect. Paddle shifters and manu-matic functions are impressive specs to add to the laundry-list of features on a new car.

-----

As a test-driver and car reviewer, I sometimes get my hands on test units that have seen too many miles and too many drivers. In some cases, this results in slightly lazy or slightly aggressive shifting. In others, it results in an automotive form of schizophrenia.

See, a fully-automated, adaptive logic transmission may sound impressive in theory, but in practice, aggressive learning algorithms can be basket cases. Indecisive, poor-shifting, second-guessing, erratic. There are adaptive transmissions that are notorious in this regard, and sometimes a reflash or an ECU reset is the only solution to mis-learned behavior.

 

[porkchop87]

Because chicks dig the stick shift.

 

[speedy_2]

Pros:

No human interaction to change gears. Good for heavy traffic, where manual gear changes can be annoying/exhausting/etc.

In modern cars, they usually last quite awhile and need zero maintenance

East to operate......there is no learning how to drive an auto. If you can drive a go-kart you can drive an automatic automobile.

More comfortable and/or less noisy than a manual.

Common. If you want an Auto, you won't have a hard time finding one...at least here in the States.


Cons:

Less control...obviously

For some.....less fun.

Usually less reliable than a manual when power is added over stock specs.

More parasitic loss...although becoming less of an issue with modern cars.

 

[homeforsummer]

Then we have the cluched autos, the SMG and DCTs. These basically take the moving of the shift lever and clutch away from the user - to some extent. In auto mode, these tend to be...not so great

SMGs aren't usually brilliant in auto mode as they're a bit jerky. DCTs are a completely different kettle of fish. I've driven an Audi TT with their S-Tronic DCT and it's very, very smooth. It doesn't slur changes to the same extent as a torque-converter auto but it does smooth them together thanks to it having control over two clutches, and it's significantly quicker to change than any regular auto and most manual boxes short of straight-cut racing gearboxes.

I'll always enjoy using manual transmissions but for most of the people most of the time, a DCT is probably the best transmission out there. It does both the auto and the manual bits very well indeed.

 

[AlexGTV]

SMGs aren't usually brilliant in auto mode as they're a bit jerky.

Those are that have the gear lever going only upwards and backwards instead of the HH configuration?

 

[Danoff]

I've driven/owned a few manual transmissions in my time, and I don't particularly like them. They can be fun, but they can also be a nuisance, especially if you're trying to do it "right". This video convinces me beyond a doubt that the 3-pedal configuration is a dysfunctional human interface. I defy you to watch what this guy is doing and think to yourself "yea that's a good system, looks like it's working perfectly, there's no way it needs to be simpler than that".



DSG wins. My enjoyment from driving comes from hitting the apex, not from articulating the mechanical components of the transmission. I'm not in the car to move mechanical bits back and forth. I'm in the car to drive it.

 

[homeforsummer]

Those are that have the gear lever going only upwards and backwards instead of the HH configuration?

SMG means sequential manual gearbox, so yes and no. It's still technically a manual gearbox as it uses a clutch like any other manual, it just has no clutch pedal as the clutch is actuated electronically.

Examples being BMW's SMG (used in the M5 V10), Ferrari's old "F1" 'box, and the one smart use in the fortwo. The first two examples are quick and jerky, the smart's is slow and jerky.

None of them are are brilliant as an auto, all are better in manual. None are as good as a twin-clutch gearbox at either auto or manual.

I've driven/owned a few manual transmissions in my time, and I don't particularly like them. They can be fun, but they can also be a nuisance, especially if you're trying to do it "right". This video convinces me beyond a doubt that the 3-pedal configuration is a dysfunctional human interface. I defy you to watch what this guy is doing and think to yourself "yea that's a good system, looks like it's working perfectly, there's no way it needs to be simpler than that".

DSG wins. My enjoyment from driving comes from hitting the apex, not from articulating the mechanical components of the transmission. I'm not in the car to move mechanical bits back and forth. I'm in the car to drive it.

Heh, good example, though in fairness you should never need that much pedalwork in regular driving, even on a twisty road.

I agree though, DSGs are very good indeed. I'd choose one above most manuals, but not all. I really enjoyed using the manual box in my old Miata, though it's probably one of the best manual transmissions out there.

 

[Danoff]

Heh, good example, though in fairness you should never need that much pedalwork in regular driving, even on a twisty road.

Let's face it, we're not really talking about regular driving are we? We're talking about what Famine would call "spirited" driving. Obviously not racing, like the example I gave, but driving that involves getting the most out of your engine none-the-less.

For getting the groceries, DSG still wins though.

 

[AlexGTV]

CVTs aren't the best of them all, at least in theory. I reckon they would make the car sound funny though.

 

[Eric.]

Let's face it, we're not really talking about regular driving are we? We're talking about what Famine would call "spirited" driving. Obviously not racing, like the example I gave, but driving that involves getting the most out of your engine none-the-less.

For getting the groceries, DSG still wins though.

I don't do that much pedal work in a day of autocross. Rally is always going to require much more input to all of the car's controls.


And all of us that drive manual don't even realize we're clutching and shifting and all these other chores you make out of it. We might consciously think "Oh, I'm slowing to 35mph, I'll downshift to 4th gear", but the action itself is pretty transparent.

 

[eSZee]

I can see the fun part in it. It's the same I believe of why the trend in the 80's for fully digitized instruments didn't catch on. Rather today they are complimentary to the traditional speedometers. Better visualization.



I didn't get you mate. Your start seems to support that automatic is better but the conclusion ends with the driver knowing better. I'm confused, can you elaborate?

Here's the truth. There is no point explaining why people choose manual transmissions to someone who doesn't get it. If you "get" why a manual trans is better for you, great, if you don't even after trying, you likely never will. I try to explain to people why I chose manual over auto and the more I explain it the more it sounds to them like I made a mistake.

 

[Kubalivre]

It allows less skilled drivers to go on with it.

There, it's both a pro and a con.

 

[Joey D]

I personally cannot stand manual transmissions and I'll be glad when the automotive world sacks them in favour of these double clutch things that shift faster then a human could ever hope.

I commute to and from work in bumper to bumper traffic for 45 minute each way, trying to drive that in a manual would irritate me more then it already does. A few of my friends who do have manual transmission cars said I would get use to it, but based on my past experiences, I wouldn't. My Neon was a manual and was I learn to drive on, while it was fun at time, a majority of the time it wasn't. Plus as part of my job I'm on my mobile phone continuously, trying to drive and be on my phone is borderline safe, throwing gear changes in that wouldn't help an already risky situation.

An auto's can be fun as well, my car is an auto with the ability to select gears as I see fit for the most part and it is quite a bit of fun on twisty roads. I have gotten manual Cooper's from the dealer for the day as loaner vehicles and really driving them doesn't make me feel like there is any fun to gain with them over my automatic version.

Like everything there are downsides though, autos are heavier and typically get worse fuel economy. Also any car sold with a 4 speed auto now is just abysmal.

 

[Kylehnat]

Here's the truth. There is no point explaining why people choose manual transmissions to someone who doesn't get it.

Thank you.

I personally cannot stand manual transmissions and I'll be glad when the automotive world sacks them in favour of these double clutch things that shift faster then a human could ever hope.

I don't mean to sound like an ass, but I'm going to . Why do you care? I rue that same day that you're looking forward to. You will probably never, ever be forced to drive a manual tranny again. I at least want the option. I don't care that my car can be had with a flappy-paddle 7-speed that's quicker to 60 and through the 1/4 mile. I'll buy my 3-pedal version again, 1000 times out of 1000.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned here is that manual transmissions are not easily killed. You can break just about everything in the gearbox, but as long as you have one functional gear, the car can be driven home. Granted, you might need some friends to push you down a hill so you can slam the box into 4th with no clutch, but at least you won't be stranded because a switch is loose, and the ECU thinks the car is in park when it is not.

 

[Joey D]

I don't mean to sound like an ass, but I'm going to . Why do you care? I rue that same day that you're looking forward to. You will probably never, ever be forced to drive a manual tranny again. I at least want the option. I don't care that my car can be had with a flappy-paddle 7-speed that's quicker to 60 and through the 1/4 mile. I'll buy my 3-pedal version again, 1000 times out of 1000.

I think it's time for technology to advance, and to me, manual transmissions are being surpassed by better alternatives. With R&D dollars at a premium now, it makes better sense to devote those dollars to the new wave of technology, in my opinion.

 

[Danoff]

And all of us that drive manual don't even realize we're clutching and shifting and all these other chores you make out of it. We might consciously think "Oh, I'm slowing to 35mph, I'll downshift to 4th gear", but the action itself is pretty transparent.

Probably that rally driver doesn't really think about it all that much either. Using all three of his feet probably seems perfectly transparent to him too. Yes, you can get good at something unnatural - it's what human beings have been doing for thousands of years. This guy is good at something unnatural too.



I'm sure he doesn't think about it anymore. He just does it. It's muscle memory to him. The point is that you shouldn't have to get good at something so unnecessary.

I don't care that my car can be had with a flappy-paddle 7-speed that's quicker to 60 and through the 1/4 mile. I'll buy my 3-pedal version again, 1000 times out of 1000.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned here is that manual transmissions are not easily killed.

This can be generally said of progress. Often the newer technology is faster to break and purists will often cling to the older, familiar technology that they grew up with and have nostalgia for. My dad loves his reel-to-reel tape recorder and his record player. He'd probably point out that his CDs get scratched and won't play, or mp3s have some audio quality compromises he can't stand, or that there's a warmth to the sound from the record that just can't be recreated by a digital storage, or even that pops and crackles make the sound better.

When I first got into cars the argument for the manual was always that manual was faster. Nobody wanted to give up a tenth of a second to 60 no matter what they had to do. Now they're willing to give up that tenth in order to stick to something less convenient.

I totally get it though. You've developed a skill. You're good at rowing through gears without thinking about it and can make your transmission run smoothly. It's a dance that you've practiced a million times over and have mastered. Having that skill makes you want to use it. You're good at it, so you want to do it some more. Maybe you're even better at it than other people you know - maybe you take some pride in it. This gives you a personal stake in whether you're driving a stick. I've developed that skill too. I got pretty damned good at rowing through the gears too. I learned on a manual, my first car was a manual, my second car was a manual, and my previous car was a manual. But the skill I've developed at articulating the mechanical components of my car strike me more like that guy packing the deck of cards than anything else - something that can be done faster by a machine.

 

[speedy_2]

There's going to be fanboys of each. It's not a freakin competition. It's a choice. If one really "sucked" so much more over the other, do you think car companies would even make them? It's as simple as that. You want power windows or manual windows? You want HID's or Halogens? They're both available and you can choose. /thread

 

[BrutherSuperior]

Plus as part of my job I'm on my mobile phone continuously, trying to drive and be on my phone is borderline safe, throwing gear changes in that wouldn't help an already risky situation.

Pfft...

You're joking right? Heaven forbid something gets in the way between someone and their Iphone.

And if you think DCT transmissions can shift faster than any human, you haven't driven one in normal traffic and needed/desired to accelerate quickly. They lag and ponder your decisions while you're flooring the throttle and screaming at the car to move. Even the almighty Nissan GTR suffers from this.

I absolute loathe the things.

Great for 0-60 sprints but the only other advantage is really a nicer MPG sticker on the showroom floor. They're just as frustrating as a conventional torque converter auto box...which I also can't stand.

With a proper manually shifted transmission, you're in control and not some computer. If you're in the wrong gear, it's your own damn fault. If that means you can't tweet while sucking down your latte while you commute - so be it.

If you think it's cumbersome or hard work, go to a gym. Modern hydraulic clutches are a breeze. And if you think pressing that lever is too tiring during a commute - you're a wimp.

 

[Danoff]

If you think it's cumbersome or hard work, go to a gym. Modern hydraulic clutches are a breeze. And if you think pressing that lever is too tiring during a commute - you're a wimp.

Nobody said they didn't have the muscle to switch gears (which is ludicrous). I don't know who you're talking to, but it's not anyone on this site.

 

[McLaren]

Pfft...

You're joking right? Heaven forbid something gets in the way between someone and their Iphone.

And if you think DCT transmissions can shift faster than any human, you haven't driven one in normal traffic and needed/desired to accelerate quickly. They lag and ponder your decisions while you're flooring the throttle and screaming at the car to move. Even the almighty Nissan GTR suffers from this.

1. Depends on the transmission.
2. Generally, all DCTs can shift faster than a human.

What you're describing as "lag" generally happens to semi-autos. DCTs have 2 clutches, working simultaneously together. Again, it depends on the car, but generally, if you were to floor it in, say, a Porsche with the PDK-equipped transmission, it will downshift and take off much faster than a person could.

 

[homeforsummer]

The point is that you shouldn't have to get good at something so unnecessary.

The same though could be said about a great many things. Any sport, for example. I know there's not a direct parity between being good at shifting gears and being good at a sport since there's not something newer that's come along to replace sports, but it doesn't make them any less "unnecessary".

You've already pointed out yourself that it can be called a skill that people want to practice and become great at, but the big difference between some of us and others amongst us is that some people see gearchanging as literally no more than a means to an end (in which case autos and their variations do a technically better job) and others see it as part of the experience, no different from steering the car yourself, accelerating yourself or braking yourself.

For me, it doesn't matter that I could be quicker more of the time with a DSG, since much as it's a great gearbox, it still lacks that final bit of involvement to driving a fun car (though if your sole purpose isn't to have fun, then a DSG is great).

Referring to my old Miata again, there is absolutely no way in the world that a DSG would provide the same level of satisfaction as the gearshift in that car (and I'm certainly no expert - I rev match but I've not learned to heel/toe yet). It would be out of place with the experience, for a start, having a smooth, instantaneous shift when the rest of the car is so visceral, but even when you're pottering about going to the shops the little snick of the gearbox is so easy and satisfying to use that it would render a DSG redundant.

In the aforementioned TT? Definitely better with a DSG. Audi manual gearboxes aren't too bad, but there's nothing special about them - it literally is just a means to an end. In those cases, a DSG adds to the experience and feels more suited to the car. A higher-tech car should have a higher-tech gearbox. In fact, I can think of very few, if any, VAG products these days that would be better served as a manual than as a DSG.

Have to say I disagree with Joey's attitude though. If you're never going to own a manual car again, why be bothered that they exist for those that do want them?

Not aimed at you directly Joe, but it's a similar attitude that ticks me off when people moan about, for example, electric cars and hybrids. The sort of people who endlessly bitch about them will never buy one anyway, so quit the whining and leave them for the people that do like them.

Incidentally, no DSG, auto, CVT or whatever is better than the long, uninterrupted flow of power and torque you get from an electric car If you're going to be lazy and not shift gears yourself, you may as well do away with a gearbox of any kind...

 

[Joey D]

Pfft...

You're joking right? Heaven forbid something gets in the way between someone and their Iphone.

No I'm not joking. As part of my job I'm on the phone constantly, it has nothing to do with tweeting, texting, facebooking, whatever else while driving. If I want to continue getting a pay cheque without sitting in an office 12 hours every day I need to talk on the phone and occasionally I still do need to drive from point a to point b. And what better way to use the 45 minute commute time then do work? The way I see it is I could buy a manual, have an awful drive home and then work once I got home which would be just as bad, or I can have an awful drive home while working all along with the ability to not worry about it when I park in the garage for the night. I'll take the second option.

And if you think DCT transmissions can shift faster than any human, you haven't driven one in normal traffic and needed/desired to accelerate quickly. They lag and ponder your decisions while you're flooring the throttle and screaming at the car to move. Even the almighty Nissan GTR suffers from this.

Most newer automatic gearbox do shift faster then a human can. All one has to do is read any review about any new exotic car to show you that, they all pretty much say they can shift faster then one can blink. I agree an older automatic from even the early 1990's probably isn't any faster but the industry has moved a long way from that.

If you think it's cumbersome or hard work, go to a gym. Modern hydraulic clutches are a breeze. And if you think pressing that lever is too tiring during a commute - you're a wimp.

I haven't made any insinuations that a manual requires "hard work", all I've said is that I find them annoying. Old manual transmissions though were a bit of work out with heavy clutches, poorly synch cogs and what not. I've driven manual pickups from the 70's and it wasn't exactly a fun experience .

===

And I'll never understand why manual trans drivers feel the need to jump all over anyone who prefers automatics. It's not just the internet too, I've had people call me everything under the sun for buying a car with an auto trans...which doesn't make any sense to me. I haven't said anything negative about manual owners/drivers, I've only stated the technology behind a manual gearbox is dated and that I think it should go away.

But I'll tell you what, if you think I should drive a manual, buy me a car with your money and then you can tell me how to drive it .

Have to say I disagree with Joey's attitude though. If you're never going to own a manual car again, why be bothered that they exist for those that do want them?

Not aimed at you directly Joe, but it's a similar attitude that ticks me off when people moan about, for example, electric cars and hybrids. The sort of people who endlessly bitch about them will never buy one anyway, so quit the whining and leave them for the people that do like them.

I'm not bothered they exist, I just think automotive companies could invest their time and R&D dollars into newer technology then continuously developing manual transmissions. I know many of the manuals we have no have been around in some form for ages and ages, but at some point they will need to be reworked. When that time comes I think a better use of R&D funds would be to push the technology forward instead of relying on older methods.

I don't care if you buy a manual at all, as I've said it's your money and you can spend it however you like...unless you're in Soviet Russia, but if you were there the transmission would shift you!!

Incidentally, no DSG, auto, CVT or whatever is better than the long, uninterrupted flow of power and torque you get from an electric car If you're going to be lazy and not shift gears yourself, you may as well do away with a gearbox of any kind...

Oddly it makes a lot of sense, once we design cars without the need for a gearbox it'll be one less thing that can break on a car.