Pros/Cons of a fully auto tranny

[Tornado]

It's not just the internet too, I've had people call me everything under the sun for buying a car with an auto trans...which doesn't make any sense to me.

I've only stated the technology behind a manual gearbox is dated and that I think it should go away.

These two things are probably related.

 

[Kylehnat]

Most newer automatic gearbox do shift faster then a human can.

Only in high-end or performance cars. Standard slushboxes are still slower than molasses.

 

[Joey D]

These two things are probably related.

Which is a mystery since I'm slagging the technology, not the person who bought it. I believe the whole play the ball, not the man thing comes into play here.

Only in high-end or performance cars. Standard slushboxes are still slower than molasses.

A VW GTI's automatic gearbox is faster then its manual counterpart and a tarted up Golf is by no means a high-end car.

 

[Keef]

Let's face it, we're not really talking about regular driving are we? We're talking about what Famine would call "spirited" driving. Obviously not racing, like the example I gave, but driving that involves getting the most out of your engine none-the-less.

Wringing a race car out for every last thousandth of a second is very different than getting groceries, or spirited driving, or scaring your passenger on the Dragon, autocross, track days, or pretty much anything else that a mediocre driver could do. It takes tons of practice resulting in extreme skill to be able to do that. You can't even teach a person to be the "best" because they simply can't unless they've got a special gift for it. I may be mid-pack when it comes to video games but I like to think I'm pretty decent compared to your average 22 year old driver. I'm not even 5% along the way to being a real pro.

I'd like to be though. Everybody has their own interests and desires, and driving just happens to be one of few things I crave to excel at. I get all happy like a little kid when I'm bombing into a corner and manage a perfect hell-and-toe downshift, and it makes me want to go that much faster. By slogging every day in anything other than a manual car I would basically be giving up on the dream of being an excellent driver and that would be disgraceful.

As much as you don't like them I love them, maybe more so, and that's fine. But dysfunctional? Hardly. As a matter of fact, a traditional manual transmission is a textbook example of "functional". It's a simple mechanical system with no electronic interference. A machine operated by a person. It can be operated well, it can be operated poorly, it can produce glorious results if you know what you're doing, or it can explode into bits before you get off the dealer lot. Either way, it's purely mechanical and therefore it's behavior is totally predictable. You can even engineer this mechanical system to go bad like it was on a timer, as has been done in the past.

Speaking of predictable, I saw an Audi Q7 the other day with a tail light out. The tail lights are four rings of LEDs, and one ring was off. Like, really? If they can't even get LEDs to light up why on Earth would I trust any electronically controlled transmission?

 

[RenoRanes007]

Give me my Manual Transmission over an Auto any day! Autos are lazy! I've been unfortunate enough to be stuck with one for a courtesy car and a company car, I hated them! They are so.... Boring! Driving them is so effortless, lifeless and they never change down when you want them to! I couldn't wait to get back into my own Manual car where you actually have a sence that you are doing something and not just telling it what to do. Theres nothing like blasting through twisty country roads knowing you got it there and not just pressing the accelerate and brake pedal!
Auto boxes certainly have their place, for people that Need them but other than that, I'd never chose to have one, it takes away the pleasure of driving.

 

[Tornado]

Which is a mystery since I'm slagging the technology, not the person who bought it.

No mystery there. Joe Smith, American, likes manual transmissions. You say that you want them to no longer exist. So it shouldn't come as a surprise when you receive animosity from him, because you are basically saying that you don't want him to be able to enjoy the things that he likes.

 

[AlexGTV]

Oddly it makes a lot of sense, once we design cars without the need for a gearbox it'll be one less thing that can break on a car.

So you believe there may be deliberate choise to fit a car with a manual so that more money can be made from the service? And what if the problem occurs while the guarantee is still on, won't car companies loose money in that case or they have calculated the wear of the manual transmission to fall outside of it?

Speaking of predictable, I saw an Audi Q7 the other day with a tail light out. The tail lights are four rings of LEDs, and one ring was off. Like, really? If they can't even get LEDs to light up why on Earth would I trust any electronically controlled transmission?

While I agree that mechanical or hydraulic systems in theory, and in our minds, are more immediate and maybe less prone to error than a purely electronic one, what about the engine computer? Doesn't it calculate and operate valve timing fuel/air ratios and other cruscial aspects of the engine and camshaft?

 

[McLaren]

Speaking of predictable, I saw an Audi Q7 the other day with a tail light out. The tail lights are four rings of LEDs, and one ring was off. Like, really? If they can't even get LEDs to light up why on Earth would I trust any electronically controlled transmission?

Stupidest. Argument. Ever.

 

[Joey D]

No mystery there. Joe Smith, American, likes manual transmissions. You say that you want them to no longer exist. So it shouldn't come as a surprise when you receive animosity from him, because you are basically saying that you don't want him to be able to enjoy the things that he likes.

I understand that to a degree but when Joe American gets his knickers in a twist over it is something I don't. Saying I don't like manual gearboxes is treated like I went up and fondled Martha American, Joe American's mother. Slagging technology should not result in the slagging of the owner of the other thing, but then again it happens with everything so I probably shouldn't be surprised.

So you believe there may be deliberate choise to fit a car with a manual so that more money can be made from the service? And what if the problem occurs while the guarantee is still on, won't car companies loose money in that case or they have calculated the wear of the manual transmission to fall outside of it?

How did you get that from my statement?

If you do away with any transmission you are going to have one less thing to break, that's a fact. If it doesn't exist, it can't break...unless Stephen Hawking some how produces a very weird form of physics.

 

[Tornado]

I understand that to a degree but when Joe American gets his knickers in a twist over it is something I don't. Saying I don't like manual gearboxes is treated like I went up and fondled Martha American, Joe American's mother. Slagging technology should not result in the slagging of the owner of the other thing, but then again it happens with everything so I probably shouldn't be surprised.

Saying "I don't like manual transmissions" is one thing. Saying "I don't like manual transmissions and I wish they would stop existing" is something completely different.

 

[Keef]

Stupidest. Argument. Ever.

Audi is the one that couldn't light up LEDs, not me. It's a matter of getting electricity to them lol. Fifty-fifty shot at it working: it either does or it doesn't. It didn't. Making a DSG work is more than a matter of simply checking your grounds and plugging it in.

 

[AlexGTV]

How did you get that from my statement?

If you do away with any transmission you are going to have one less thing to break, that's a fact. If it doesn't exist, it can't break...unless Stephen Hawking some how produces a very weird form of physics.

I misunderstood your statement as a hint to why we don't see more automatic transmissions. I get you know. Less moving parts and involvement, less chance for it to break.

 

[Joey D]

Saying "I don't like manual transmissions" is one thing. Saying "I don't like manual transmissions and I wish they would stop existing" is something completely different.

I don't wish they would stop existing, I'll just be glad when they are finally phased out in favour of better technology. I don't understand why people hold some thing so dear but cast away other things like it's nothing. I think most people wouldn't even think about buying a computer with a Pentium II processor in it now when we have things like the i7. Or who would want a cassette tape Walkman over an iPod now? This does come with the stipulation that I know there are a very small group of diehards out there though.

 

[AlexGTV]

My story is that I took my licence on second try because I had chosen from the start to learn with the manual Chevrolet Matiz the school provided. They also had an identical Matiz but automatic. My first try failure was because the car shut down two times, due to anxiety, and of course I was cut. This cost me €150.

A chap I know chose the automatic from the start and obviously passed first try. In the end I with, my manly manual, lost money and time while my friend passed easily because he cared only for throttle, brakes and steering whereas I had all the transmission to care about.

I currently drive a '98 european Corolla with a sluggish transmission, of course manual. My second car gladly will be an automatic, prefferably a CVT.

 

[Keef]

I doubt manual transmissions will ever be completely phased out, though I'm sure they'll become more rare as they're already pretty rare. They'll be relegated to economy cars and reasonably priced sports cars because of their cheapness, simplicity, and fun factor of course.

If not, then car companies are going to have a helluva hard time selling sports cars to actual enthusiasts. Instead, those people will resort to used sports cars. Everyone will buy 1991 RX7s for their cheapness, simplicity, and fun factor of course. Oh, and I can reach the arm rest without taking my hand off the wheel.

 

[BrutherSuperior]

A VW GTI's automatic gearbox is faster then its manual counterpart and a tarted up Golf is by no means a high-end car.

Not in normal traffic.

On a race track or drag stip, yes. When you pull out of a gas station into traffic that is moving A LOT faster than you anticipated...heh...have fun. It'll upshift when you want it to downshift, even though you're foot is on the floor, and it'll contemplate when you start hammering the right flappy paddle.

In auto mode, these things suck. In manual mode, they're marginally better as most are mounted on the column a-la Ferrari. WTF is the point if the car makes you 'shuffle steer' in order to shift? Doing that is a mess as is trying to upshift into second in a tight corner.

They look good on paper and in those shiny brochures, but on the street, where they'll be in 'auto' mode 90% of the time, they suck. And the novelty of using the paddles to shift on the road will wear out quicker than a conventional clutch.

Manual transmissions, for a driver's car, is mandatory. If you want something smooth and convenient, a garden variety locking torque converter auto box is fine. A DCT is a poor attempt to please all the people (and enviros) all the time.

They're not 'engaging' like a proper manual, they're frustrating like a slushbox. Doesn't really matter on the brand either.

Want to vote with your $$$ on the best transmission systems? Buy a CVT. They're boring, but when you get into the nitty-gritty, that's the future.

 

[McLaren]

Audi is the one that couldn't light up LEDs, not me. It's a matter of getting electricity to them lol. Fifty-fifty shot at it working: it either does or it doesn't. It didn't. Making a DSG work is more than a matter of simply checking your grounds and plugging it in.

You saw 1 car with a tail light not working & concluded that a transmission can't be trusted.

It is not 50-50, if for the 1 Q7 you saw with 1 ring out, there are 5,000+ more that are working.

Not in normal traffic.

On a race track or drag stip, yes. When you pull out of a gas station into traffic that is moving A LOT faster than you anticipated...heh...have fun. It'll upshift when you want it to downshift, even though you're foot is on the floor, and it'll contemplate when you start hammering the right flappy paddle.

Wrong. In fact, wrong for almost any decent car now-a-days. Most cars know when the gas pedal is floored, they need to downshift to pick up power.

I have yet to see a new car & hear about it upshifting when given gas after pulling out in traffic.

In auto mode, these things suck. In manual mode, they're marginally better as most are mounted on the column a-la Ferrari. WTF is the point if the car makes you 'shuffle steer' in order to shift? Doing that is a mess as is trying to upshift into second in a tight corner.

DCTs in auto mode work just fine. They don't shuffle steer at all. In fact, most semi-autos when applied to a sports-oriented car will not "shuffle steer", either.

They look good on paper and in those shiny brochures, but on the street, where they'll be in 'auto' mode 90% of the time, they suck. And the novelty of using the paddles to shift on the road will wear out quicker than a conventional clutch.

I'll put money on it, that you have never driven a car with DCT unless it was a Volkswagen. Thus, I doubt you have any clue as to how they operate under an Auto-Mode.

Manual transmissions, for a driver's car, is mandatory. If you want something smooth and convenient, a garden variety locking torque converter auto box is fine. A DCT is a poor attempt to please all the people (and enviros) all the time.

DCT has been around since the 1980's. Let's know why the transmission was built before we talk out the rear & assume that it was built to please people.

They're not 'engaging' like a proper manual, they're frustrating like a slushbox. Doesn't really matter on the brand either.

Oh really? So Ferrari, McLaren, Porsche, BMW, Mercedes, Bugatti, & Nissan have frustrating DCTs?
I await proof of that.


It's quite clear you have never driven a car with a proper DCT implemented. And your only argument keeps coming back to, "What if you have to make a quick acceleration", ignoring the fact that by the time you row 2 gears to speed up, a DCT-equipped car will have caught up, or that most cars with a DCT will have completely left traffic behind.


Your argument is mixing up DCT & Single Clutch Semi-Auto transmissions. Dual Clutch Transmissions are around for performance. They have been since the 80's when Porsche invented them. Besides Volkswagens & a few others, the only cars on the market with a DCT-equipped gearbox are performance cars. It won't be until 2011 that more, mainstream production cars really start to use the system, themselves.

 

[YSSMAN]

I doubt manual transmissions will ever be completely phased out, though I'm sure they'll become more rare as they're already pretty rare. They'll be relegated to economy cars and reasonably priced sports cars because of their cheapness, simplicity, and fun factor of course.

In my mind, that's okay. Basically, the people who like manual transmissions end up trading the cars between themselves. As much as I may love the Corvette, or have a very strange obsession with mid-size sedans, flogging econoboxes with manual transmissions is something that will never get old. Even if technology is way beyond what is good for these cars, they'll still offer a stick to the cheap-asses. That'd be me.


I don't remember if I said it in this thread or another, I do generally prefer a manual transmission, but when it comes to most things, I'm not too picky. There are some situations where a slushbox makes sense, and when it has been tuned properly, I really cannot be angry. Cars like the Cadillac CTS-V and Jaguar XKR and XFR employ class-leading gearboxes that typically perform better than manual transmissions, and end up being a little more dependable than a single or dual-clutch automated transmission. Granted, the dual-clutch units have come a long way in the past few years (thinking of the Porsche PDK and the new Ferrari box), but I'll still take a well-done ZF or GM box any day.

Still, for people who love the manual gearbox, Porsche and Mazda will be happy to keep the spirit alive. I'm okay with that.

 

[BrutherSuperior]

DCTs in auto mode work just fine. They don't shuffle steer at all. In fact, most semi-autos when applied to a sports-oriented car will not "shuffle steer", either.

You have no clue what you're talking about in this thread. My guess is that you don't even drive.

 

[Eric.]

In auto mode, these things suck. In manual mode, they're marginally better as most are mounted on the column a-la Ferrari. WTF is the point if the car makes you 'shuffle steer' in order to shift? Doing that is a mess as is trying to upshift into second in a tight corner.

But there is one huge benefit to the paddles being column-mounted. You learn to move right to them. Its not as big of a deal on a road course I guess, but for autocross or other real tight turns where the wheel is being turned more than 90 degrees in one direction, you might end up with your hands no longer being at 9 and 3 (or however you prefer to drive) relative to the wheel. In that situation, the shifters are at 9 and 3, always.


This is coming from my experience with GT5 and the G25, which has the paddles rotating with the wheel. Have to hunt for them at times.

 

[GT_Prologue5]

You have no clue what you're talking about in this thread. My guess is that you don't even drive.

From what I saw in another thread he owns a BMW...yeahhhh.

For me, I'd go with the Manual. You might be saying, "hell, this kid's never driven, what does he know about this?" All I know is I enjoy a good challenge, and I'd go for it. It takes a bit more skill to feel the redline, reach over and shift. It doesn't take anything to slam a pedal and let a computer actuate the movement, and it's a finger flick for a paddle. I'm someone not so big on auto tech of today, I wish someone would offer a car with a seat, a radio, and a Manual. No power windows. No iPod's. No touch screen navi crap. I may have never driven in my life (okay, once, about 5 seconds trying to back up a Dodge Durango into my driveway...) but that doesn't exclude me from wanting it. 👍

 

[Joey D]

I'm someone not so big on auto tech of today, I wish someone would offer a car with a seat, a radio, and a Manual. No power windows. No iPod's. No touch screen navi crap. I may have never driven in my life (okay, once, about 5 seconds trying to back up a Dodge Durango into my driveway...) but that doesn't exclude me from wanting it. 👍

Nissan offers the Versa in probably the most sparse trim you can get on a car today in the US. For $10,740 you get a car that has four wheels and an engine...and not much else. I don't believe it even comes with ABS brakes as that's a premium option.

 

[Kylehnat]

You have no clue what you're talking about in this thread. My guess is that you don't even drive.

Wow. Just wow. You might want to troll around some of the "your car" threads...

 

[niky]

Actually, BruthaSuperior has a few points. Most automatics nowadays are programmed to default to the highest possible gear during cruising, so if you need acceleration right now, some DCTs have trouble shifting back into the proper gear.

But this is merely a problem of programming. What you want, instead of merely having a DCT that allows paddle-shifting, is a DCT that allows you to shift programming modes on the fly.

But a good DCT can be engaging. You just need to drive one. I've driven both engaging and frustrating ones in equal measure.

A perfect transmission, on the other hand, is the CVT. Sure, the sound sucks, and I've yet to see a CVT with both the low drivetrain losses and the power holding capability of a manual. But there are some pretty good ones on the market now. Never mind that they cause the engine to drone, CVTs have absolutely seamless acceleration, which makes them perfect for daily drivers. And a well-programmed CVT can also give you the instant response and engine-braking of a manual transmission.

The manual transmission will never go away, though. Despite what fibs the EPA highway cycle may tell (simply because the EPA cycle dictates manual shift points for manuals, but not for automatics), manual transmissions are still largely more economical than most automatics. Except for CVTs, which are nearly as good or better.

 

[McLaren]

You have no clue what you're talking about in this thread. My guess is that you don't even drive.

Aw, how cute. You can't even respond to the rest of my post & try to make a witty response.




Please read your first sentence. Apply to self.

 

[Jim Prower]

This is why he's on my ignore list. If only you lot would stop quoting him...

 

[speedy_2]

Wow the manual trans fanboys are everywhere. haha

 

[Kylehnat]

The manual transmission will never go away, though.

In the U.S., I fear it may. Go to a BMW dealership and tell them you want to test-drive a manual. When they're done laughing, they'll tell you they don't have any in stock. Heck, when I bought both of my cars, I checked dealer inventories all over the state, and probably 5-10% were manuals.

 

[Famine]

I personally cannot stand manual transmissions and I'll be glad when the automotive world sacks them in favour of these double clutch things that shift faster then a human could ever hope.

Changing from one gear to the next one above or below isn't the point of a manual gearbox.

Autos have their place. Manuals have theirs. The blurry line inhabited by CVTs, flappies and DCT also has its place. I don't think that even the very best example of each type will ever take the place of any other type.

 

[niky]

The point of the manual gearbox is clutch-kick drifting. And tire smoke.

In the U.S., I fear it may. Go to a BMW dealership and tell them you want to test-drive a manual. When they're done laughing, they'll tell you they don't have any in stock. Heck, when I bought both of my cars, I checked dealer inventories all over the state, and probably 5-10% were manuals.

Luxury car makers have the "luxury" of doing it that way, but you can still buy cheap cars with a stick.