Question about aftermarket parts in general

[Perfect Balance]

GTR aftermarket is not better than STI. It's just the GTR is a better chassis to start with.

Say you get an exhaust for a GTR that increases power by 25hp, then get an exhaust for the STI that increases power by 25, the GTR is still more powerful because it started out more powerful.

If you spend a LOT of money improving the chassis and engine, then you can overcome the GTR, hence why the fastest time attack car in the world right now is a Mitsubishi Evo.

 

[niky]

Basically... That. The reason you can buy a 1000 hp kit for the GTR is because the GTR can make that much, already. With the STI, you'll be buying thousands upon thousands of dollars worth of parts just to get the same potential.

Very few companies have GTR parts. Some of the best tuning companies in the world carry Subie parts. Cosworth sells you enough stuff to build your own boxer engine, but they are constrained by the need to make those parts interchangeable with regular Subaru parts.

If they weren't, they could easily build an in-house boxer of around 3 liters that could make as much power as a modified GTR.

It's not about how good the parts are. It's all about the car. No amount of training will make you, personally, fast enough to beat a Kenyan sprinter in a marathon or strong enough to go toe to toe with Randy Couture (when he wasn't a million years old...)

If neither of them trained at all, you could beat them. But they're trained, fit and starting from a better base than you. (confessions of a frustrated runner... Body too short, bones too heavy, lungs too small)...

 

[oohhh yeah]

Super GT cars arent converted from road cars. Thats what you're missing.

Super GT cars have a bespoke chassis. The Chassis was specifically built to be a racing car. The chassis is all-new, and has NOTHING to do with ANY road car AT ALL.

Basic instructions to build a GTR Super GT car:

Design/Fabricate custom frame (NOT USED BY THE ROAD CAR)
Insert Engine (May or may not be similar to the one in the Road Car)
Insert Gearbox (NOT USED BY ROAD CAR)
Add suspension (custom, likely built by Nissan. NOT USED BY THE ROAD CAR)
Pick Tyres and wheels
Design Body panels (Done by Nissan. Designed to SOMEWHAT resemble the GTR, but with added aero efficiency, cooling ducts, etc)
Paint.

As you can see, the only thing which is actually a part of a Road-going GTR is the engine. And even that is just the block- Every piece that can be switched out would be switched out for a more racy version. What you end up with is a Nissan-Designed Super GT car, which has to words "GTR" written on it, with some fancy body panels. They could easily fabricate a "Skyline 370GT" set of body panels, and then it becomes a 370GT Super GT race car.

Most Super GT cars have parts prepped by their specific manufacturer, unless there is a Massive Sticker on the livery, which may denote otherwise.

Super GT cars are at NO POINT in their lifetime a road car. And they could not be made into road cars. They share a SINGLE part, and that is the Engine block.

Where would you buy aftermarket parts for a STi to make it faster than a GTR? I'd start with the STi website. Then, go to a forum with Subaru owners, and ask them where to get the best aftermarket stuff.

Im going to go out on a limb and say that either Subaru or Prodrive make the best Suspension sets for a STi. I could be wrong though, as I dont actually own or modify Subarus.

I'm really not sure what it is you are asking...

Thanks:tup:

Comparing the tuning of a GT-R and tuning an STi is like comparing apples to oranges. Comparing either to a custom made professional race car is like comparing fruits to moon rock.

The GT-R is starting from a much higher platform than an Impreza. It's designed from the ground up to be a different sort of car to a factory tuned small family hatch-back. It's a heavier and more powerful beast than the STi, therefore even it's stock parts are designed and engineered to meet different requirements than those needed on a lighter less powerful STi. Therefore, the aftermarket scene for both cars also follows different paths. Like others have mentioned, lower volume cars such as the GT-R mean a smaller market for aftermarket parts, add to that the need for GT-R parts to be more substantial, to meet the requirements of the heavier more powerful car, and you have your reason for GT-R 'off-the-shelf' modifications having a higher price tag.

Off course you can buy the parts to make an STi as quick as a stock GT-R, but give the same money to a GT-R owner to modify his ride, and the performance gap is going to hardly close.

At the bolded. Doesn't that mean the GTR aftermarket is better then?

GTR aftermarket is not better than STI. It's just the GTR is a better chassis to start with.

Say you get an exhaust for a GTR that increases power by 25hp, then get an exhaust for the STI that increases power by 25, the GTR is still more powerful because it started out more powerful.

If you spend a LOT of money improving the chassis and engine, then you can overcome the GTR, hence why the fastest time attack car in the world right now is a Mitsubishi Evo.

Understandable. The engine is something that follows your logic. But what about suspension parts(that's the reason I picked it for the comparison)? Swap out the entire suspension...so why does it matter what the capabilities were stock?

Basically... That. The reason you can buy a 1000 hp kit for the GTR is because the GTR can make that much, already. With the STI, you'll be buying thousands upon thousands of dollars worth of parts just to get the same potential.

Very few companies have GTR parts. Some of the best tuning companies in the world carry Subie parts. Cosworth sells you enough stuff to build your own boxer engine, but they are constrained by the need to make those parts interchangeable with regular Subaru parts.

If they weren't, they could easily build an in-house boxer of around 3 liters that could make as much power as a modified GTR.

It's not about how good the parts are. It's all about the car.

Can you elaborate on the bolded?

At the red text: Something like the engine is understandeable, as it has a better base to build power off of. But like I said...does it really matter for suspension? What I'm trying to say is, something like the suspension can be completely swapped out. The GTR is still probably faster in the corners. Why would the stock advantage of the GTR matter....is what I'm trying to say. Because unlike an engine, the stock advantage would be thrown out the window when you throw out the stock parts.

THANKS!

 

[Perfect Balance]

Understandable. The engine is something that follows your logic. But what about suspension parts(that's the reason I picked it for the comparison)? Swap out the entire suspension...so why does it matter what the capabilities were stock?

A suspension is more than replacing the struts with better ones. There's also caster, steering axis inclination, bumpsteer, camber curves, scrub radius, ackermann angle, ect, that all affects how the car will handle and perform, not to mention all the various types of suspensions like double wishbone, McPherson strut, multilink that all change the characteristics of the car. The damper may be equivalent on both cars but the GTR will still perform better. If you want to spend LOTs of money, you can completely redo the suspension on the STI and make it handle better, which is why there are plenty of extremely modified car that are very quick.

 

[hawkeye122]

Because even if you put equally good suspension set ups on both an STi and a GTR, the GTR will still be quicker in the corners. It has trick differentials, a better chassis, better wheelbase, better tyres as stock, better weight distribution, better brake set-up...

Theres a whole lot more to handling than suspension. Hell, if you get to going fast enough, Aero has alot to do with it also...

 

[Cano]

it's simply not a matter of which aftermarket segment is better, it's a matter of what you start with. Any aftermarket part will potentially be better if it's made for a Veyron for example because you start with a freaking hypercar. Comparatively, you can add a set of cams to a yugo and it will also get better, but of course, it's not going to get the same results as an upgrade for a Veyron.

 

[niky]

As shown in Sport Compact Car some time ago: You can make a Yaris stiffer. You can make it lower. You can make it grippier. But in the end, it's still a Yaris. Still limited by that tall, un-rigied five-door body, poor suspension geometry and unadjustable rear axle. (though a sledgehammer works)

An STI is limited by its suspension geometry, the lash in the drivetrain, the lack of active yaw control in the AWD system, and the much-less-rigid-than-the-GTR yet somewhat heavy four-door/five-door body.

This is why Subaru WRC cars have completely bespoke suspensions and suspension mounting points, and are basically road-car shells built around a custom tube-frame.

 

[niky]

As shown in Sport Compact Car some time ago: You can make a Yaris stiffer. You can make it lower. You can make it grippier. But in the end, it's still a Yaris. Still limited by that tall, un-rigied five-door body, poor suspension geometry and unadjustable rear axle. (though a sledgehammer works)

An STI is limited by its suspension geometry, the lash in the drivetrain, the lack of active yaw control in the AWD system, and the much-less-rigid-than-the-GTR yet somewhat heavy four-door/five-door body.

This is why Subaru WRC cars have completely bespoke suspensions and suspension mounting points, and are basically road-car shells built around a custom tube-frame.

 

[oohhh yeah]

A suspension is more than replacing the struts with better ones. There's also caster, steering axis inclination, bumpsteer, camber curves, scrub radius, ackermann angle, ect, that all affects how the car will handle and perform, not to mention all the various types of suspensions like double wishbone, McPherson strut, multilink that all change the characteristics of the car. The damper may be equivalent on both cars but the GTR will still perform better. If you want to spend LOTs of money, you can completely redo the suspension on the STI and make it handle better, which is why there are plenty of extremely modified car that are very quick.

Because even if you put equally good suspension set ups on both an STi and a GTR, the GTR will still be quicker in the corners. It has trick differentials, a better chassis, better wheelbase, better tyres as stock, better weight distribution, better brake set-up...

Theres a whole lot more to handling than suspension. Hell, if you get to going fast enough, Aero has alot to do with it also...

it's simply not a matter of which aftermarket segment is better, it's a matter of what you start with. Any aftermarket part will potentially be better if it's made for a Veyron for example because you start with a freaking hypercar. Comparatively, you can add a set of cams to a yugo and it will also get better, but of course, it's not going to get the same results as an upgrade for a Veyron.

As shown in Sport Compact Car some time ago: You can make a Yaris stiffer. You can make it lower. You can make it grippier. But in the end, it's still a Yaris. Still limited by that tall, un-rigied five-door body, poor suspension geometry and unadjustable rear axle. (though a sledgehammer works)

An STI is limited by its suspension geometry, the lash in the drivetrain, the lack of active yaw control in the AWD system, and the much-less-rigid-than-the-GTR yet somewhat heavy four-door/five-door body.

This is why Subaru WRC cars have completely bespoke suspensions and suspension mounting points, and are basically road-car shells built around a custom tube-frame.

Thanks guys! Sorry for the late reply, I've been busy with other things, and have had no time to ponder this thread.

I understand how stock advantages matter, but, it also means that the aftermarket will have to be better for the GTR, simply because it has to be better than the stock GTR parts. Companies don't spend as much money on R&D and on materials for STi parts because it would cost too much. Right?

Thanks!👍

 

[niky]

Look up the insanely exhaustive aftermarket offerings for the STI from Cosworth and say that again. With a huge aftermarket with high volume, spending on R&D is more than worth it. Few tuning houses are as obsessive compulsive as Cosworth... The intake manifolds they sell for such common and puny motors as the Mazda/Ford 2.0-2.5s are better engineered and researched than some similar products for out-and-put performance cars.

Again, the difference in ability and price between the two cars doesn't tell you how good the aftermarket offerings are for either... All it tells you is how much mark-up the companies need to or are able to charge.

 

[oohhh yeah]

Look up the insanely exhaustive aftermarket offerings for the STI from Cosworth and say that again. With a huge aftermarket with high volume, spending on R&D is more than worth it. Few tuning houses are as obsessive compulsive as Cosworth... The intake manifolds they sell for such common and puny motors as the Mazda/Ford 2.0-2.5s are better engineered and researched than some similar products for out-and-put performance cars.

Again, the difference in ability and price between the two cars doesn't tell you how good the aftermarket offerings are for either... All it tells you is how much mark-up the companies need to or are able to charge.

What do you mean by "huge aftermarket"? Also, why wouldn't the difference in ability mean better aftermarket parts? For example, u mod the car with an intake from X manufacturer. Then you mod the car with another intake but from another manufacturer. Most likely the performance won't be exactly the same....so one is better than the other

 

[Bopop4]

The "Huge aftermarket" means that there are a lot of compaines that make parts for the STi. The "Difference in ability" means that the GT-R is so much faster than the STi that it would be hard for the Subaru to become as fast as the Nissan through tuning parts.

 

[oohhh yeah]

The "Huge aftermarket" means that there are a lot of compaines that make parts for the STi.

Yeah that's what I figured. But it doesn't really fit in his sentence. Unless I'm interpreting it wrong:idea:. Is Niky saying that because there is so much competition, there must be a lot of money spent on R&D?

 

[niky]

I'm saying that because there are so many customers, companies can justify spending more money on R&D.

If you have lots of customers or very rich customers... or (with the GT-R) both... you can spend a lot developing parts.

The difference in ability of the cars themselves means squat when talking about the quality of the aftermarket parts. Some great cars have very little in terms of aftermarket support and gain very little from modification (the Mazdaspeed6 comes to mind) while some really crappy cars have lots of aftermarket support and gain much more from mods. It all boils down to whether or not there's a demand for the products. That's all there is to it.

Some cars don't like exhaust or intake modification (the Nissan 350Z was notorious for this)... some cars are ridiculously easy to modify (Honda Bs, Nissan SRs, STIs).

You're asking questions that don't quite make sense. The quality of the car has nothing to do with the quality of the products offered for it. Sometimes higher quality products are needed to extract the most out of a lower quality car.

 

[oohhh yeah]

The difference in ability of the cars themselves means squat when talking about the quality of the aftermarket parts. Some great cars have very little in terms of aftermarket support and gain very little from modification while some really crappy cars have lots of aftermarket support and gain much more from mods. It all boils down to whether or not there's a demand for the products. That's all there is to it.

Some cars don't like exhaust or intake modification (the Nissan 350Z was notorious for this)... some cars are ridiculously easy to modify (Honda Bs, Nissan SRs, STIs).

Sometimes higher quality products are needed to extract the most out of a lower quality car.

Can you explain why this happens? Is it because the stock parts/design is already good. The car is already tuned near the limit from the factory?

Thanks

 

[hawkeye122]

Can you explain why this happens? Is it because the stock parts/design is already good. The car is already tuned near the limit from the factory?

Thanks

Im guessing it's because Nissan designed a kick-ass intake for the 350Z, so good that it couldnt be improved without spending MASSIVE amounts of money, or drastically changing the engine set-up.

Just because the Intake is good doesnt mean that its "Tuned to the limit"

Cars that are garbage from the factory means they didnt put alot of thought into the parts, and thus, the aftermarket does a better job of making them.

Im starting to think you are trolling us... The questions you ask are a bit...

 

[niky]

The 350Z's stock system is pretty good, but that's not all there is to it. Part of it is down to the ECU. All cars respond to better breathing. Only some of them have on-board computers that will dial back the power to stock levels once they detect any changes in sensor readouts, to meet emissions criteria.

This is why so many aftermarket companies are folding. The R&D required to make sure that even a simple pod-filter and tube gain power nowadays are a lot higher than they used to be.

 

[oohhh yeah]

The 350Z's stock system is pretty good, but that's not all there is to it. Part of it is down to the ECU. All cars respond to better breathing. Only some of them have on-board computers that will dial back the power to stock levels once they detect any changes in sensor readouts, to meet emissions criteria.

This is why so many aftermarket companies are folding. The R&D required to make sure that even a simple pod-filter and tube gain power nowadays are a lot higher than they used to be.

I see...so it's the ECU on the 350z. I assume they somehow bypassed that problem? Do you know how?

Im guessing it's because Nissan designed a kick-ass intake for the 350Z, so good that it couldnt be improved without spending MASSIVE amounts of money, or drastically changing the engine set-up.

Just because the Intake is good doesnt mean that its "Tuned to the limit"

Cars that are garbage from the factory means they didnt put alot of thought into the parts, and thus, the aftermarket does a better job of making them.

Im starting to think you are trolling us... The questions you ask are a bit...

Yeah that's what I thought. Like the S2000...it is expensive for little gain to modify. I don't troll, I'm a legitimate poster from 2010.

 

[niky]

Only two ways. Either you design the intake very carefully to keep sensor readouts within normal range, which is what most do... Or do what APEXi is doing and sell the intake with a chip that adjusts sensor readout.

The best way is to simply retune the car for the mods... But that requires buying a programmer or a piggyback chip.

We did preliminary testing on an intake for another car a few weeks ago... Saw big gains (5 hp on a 55 hp car is huge...) up and down the rpm band... Except between 3500-4000 rpm, where we saw an even bigger dip. The more power we made, the bigger the dip. Apparently, the ECU is programmed to take into account some weird resonance at that rpm range, and squirts much more fuel per measured unit of air than anywhere else in the powerband.

 

[savage388]

Only two ways. Either you design the intake very carefully to keep sensor readouts within normal range, which is what most do... Or do what APEXi is doing and sell the intake with a chip that adjusts sensor readout.

The best way is to simply retune the car for the mods... But that requires buying a programmer or a piggyback chip.

We did preliminary testing on an intake for another car a few weeks ago... Saw big gains (5 hp on a 55 hp car is huge...) up and down the rpm band... Except between 3500-4000 rpm, where we saw an even bigger dip. The more power we made, the bigger the dip. Apparently, the ECU is programmed to take into account some weird resonance at that rpm range, and squirts much more fuel per measured unit of air than anywhere else in the powerband.

The days of bolt ons are definitely over. Anything to do will cause an idiot light to go off, including air intakes Which is crazy. Then you've got to laptop tune the car and like you just said manufactures are using increasingly sophisticated software to squeeze more efficiency out engines that are also increasingly complex. It's a shame really modifying a car is getting ridiculously expensive.

 

[Slash]

The days of bolt ons are definitely over.

Unfortunatley. Gotta love when you were able to get 500hp out of a 300hp motor with a few bolts.

 

[savage388]

Unfortunatley. Gotta love when you were able to get 500hp out of a 300hp motor with a few bolts.

Yes, however engines today are much more efficient because of their complexity. I really like the old school way. I honestly don't mind the tpi chevys. Fuel economy of efi, simple as turning bolts on everything else. Hopefully I'll have one tomorrow.

 

[niky]

It's only over if you don't feel like learning to use the laptop...

Just think of it as a bonus... that $400-$600 (or thereabouts) reflash or chip not only maximizes the gains of your bolt-ons, it's worth a 5-10% boost in power in and of itself.

When I first had the car chipped, people were skeptical that it was worth the money. After squaring off against another club member with the exact same car and modifications (sans chip), he was blown away by how much extra "roll-on" power the chip freed up... pretty soon, a whole bunch of other guys were having the same mod done...

 

[savage388]

It's only over if you don't feel like learning to use the laptop...

Just think of it as a bonus... that $400-$600 (or thereabouts) reflash or chip not only maximizes the gains of your bolt-ons, it's worth a 5-10% boost in power in and of itself.

When I first had the car chipped, people were skeptical that it was worth the money. After squaring off against another club member with the exact same car and modifications (sans chip), he was blown away by how much extra "roll-on" power the chip freed up... pretty soon, a whole bunch of other guys were having the same mod done...

I totally agree however laptop tuning and wrenching are different skill sets. Bolting stuff on isn't as intimidating as looking at a screen full of numbers with timing air fuel ratios ect. I know I'm intimidated by some of that especially with what one click can do to my engine.
Then there's the whole issue of software. The old efi honda vtecs and chevy tpi dinosaurs are easy to access and tune parameters on. From why I've heard manufactures are making ecu's harder to get into and play with or to use a piggyback with. I'm going to have to learn soon though.