Race incident discussion

  • Thread starter Thread starter DeuceOfClub
  • 83 comments
  • 6,139 views

What's your opinion?

  • The RX-7 (Leading) drivers is at fault.

    Votes: 57 29.4%

  • The Quattro (chasing) driver is at fault.

    Votes: 38 19.6%

  • No fault, just an unfortunate racing incident.

    Votes: 99 51.0%
  • Total voters
    194
I can't really tell from the video. It'd come down to: if the RX-7 had held a line around the outside, would the audi have been able to hold a line round the inside without hitting it? If it could, then the RX-7 driver is minorly at fault for not using his mirrors / knowing where his opponent is and turning into him, but this is something that's very hard to do with the single-screen setup that almost all of us have. OTOH, if the audi was going too fast to actually corner without hitting the rx-7 (even if the rx-7 had held an outside line) then the audi driver is properly at fault, but I don't know how you could tell that from the vid.
Deuce, if you posted this thread because you're concerned you did something wrong, then you know yourself how your corner was going. If you think you could have held an inside line then I wouldn't beat yourself up about it. Similarly, I don't think Takahashi should worry either - ideally he should have known the audi was there and not turned into it, but that's a lot easier said than done.
 
It's been an interesting thread to read.

Personally I'd put that down to a racing incident after hearing both sides of the story. Although myself in that situation there were a couple of errors that I would try to avoid. The RX7 for not keeping check of where the opponent was. If I see my opponent disappear from my rear view mirror, I will flick a look to the side to see what they were up to so I could take appropriate action.

If I were driving the Audi, I would have not have attempted an overtake there. There is really only one line through that combination of corners and would have used it to set myself up for an overtake on a later corner. It is a difficult track to pass on, with only a couple of good overtaking spots, with the fast combination corners that command really only one real racing line through them. Just because a gap appears doesn't mean you need to put your car into it.
 
Leader's fault. The chasing car had the run on the lead car and properly took the inside(Which was left open withalot of space.). A failure to check rearview and sideviews ended with the lead car coming down on the chasing car and then walling himself. 👎
 
Racing incident for me - The RX7 left a lot of room and any racer worth his salt is gonna put his car in there and leave it to the guy on the outside to make the decision to turn or not.

Perfectly fair move imho.
 
Quattro a little aggressive.
RX7 a little defensive.
Put together - someone has to lose out. One of those things.
 
The line the audi had and the speed he was carrying through the bend, would have meant the audi would have swung out and exited the corner wider. If the rx-7 left room for the audi to go up the inside, the audi would have took the rx-7 out on the exit, you can tell the angle the audi was heading by watching the video, just before contact, he was definitely not going to maintain that inside line.

Luckily for the audi he made contact on the entry and not the exit, which would have been a clear cut audi at fault. The audi could have avoided any collision by just backing off and waiting. Just because a gap appears, doesn't mean you HAVE to go for it.

Still the audi at fault for me.
 
TakahashiRyoske
The ruling for the league has already been made, and Deuce and I have already put this incident past us, but I just wanted to comment:

You can't use the contact point as the time to measure overlap. If you judge by that rule, then it would be okay to go slamming into people full force, as long as you hit them beyond the door. Which, of course, doesn't make sense. When you ask the question "was there sufficient overlap early enough?" you must judge whether overlap was had at some point prior to collision.

The two main items up for discussion are:

1) What constitutes sufficient overlap
2) When must that overlap be established by
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According to the rules:
B:
You must establish substantial overlap with the car ahead before they reach the corner’s turn-in point to have the right to drive up their inside, or to expect them to leave inside room for you. At least the front of your car should be up to the driver’s position in the ahead car.
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My take on video is that the Audi did not have sufficient overlap when RX-7 turned in to the corner.

However, the Audi had a later turn in point for the corner, because he took a different line and at that point he had sufficient overlap to have the right to the inside.

I (arbitrarily) used the g-force meters in the replay to pick the turn in point for each car. In the video from the Audi perspective, it seems RX-7 turn in was later, so I am not surprised at the ruling that it was a clean pass.

The rule I quoted is ambiguous as to who's turn-in point to use to make a determination. I would have thought that the RX-7's turn-in would have been respected, but that would have been an extremely close call and i would have put it in the 'technically you are right but my gut doesn't like it category.'
 
It's all well and good having these rules after the event, but because its a video game, its hard to decide in an instant, who had the overlap and what not (bumper cam, not having 3 screens, using a controller etc) .
Rx-7 had track position, which it would appear doesn't count for a lot. So next time I'm racing, I will sling one up the inside, knowing my exit will be compromised and expect the car in front to get out the way.
 
dhandes
First of all you need to focus on what the two cars would have been doing if they were not sharing the same bit of a track.

The racing line on a series of bends like that with a straight after, would be the line the Rx-7 was taking. The straightest possible route.

The line the Audi was taking, was obviously created by him chasing, it would be interesting to see his line on the same section on previous or later laps. If it is the same as his line shown, i would be surprised.

On to what we see, im not convinced that the Audi at that speed, could have avoided contact with the wall on the right upon exiting the corner, He gained time because of the rx-7 poor hairpin prior, gained on the opponent and tried his luck.

He used the Rx-7 as a brake. If he really was that faster why attempt such a coarse overtaking attempt?

The rx-7 had the racing line, was in front. And being a video game, you dont have full peripheral vision, just a quick look in your mirror. It was the Audi who should have shown restraint, not sling one up the inside and hope for the best.
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I fully agree with this opinion.
 
dhandes
So next time I'm racing, I will sling one up the inside, knowing my exit will be compromised and expect the car in front to get out the way.
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You are only fooling and lying to yourself.:rolleyes:
 
I had what I thought a racing incident similar to this a few weeks ago.

It was on Madrid Mini and we had been bumper to bumper since 2 rounds (very close since 25 or something), I was following.

On one hairpin I had noticed that I could take an early brake and have more speed in the turn itself. I was hoping to have the higher exit speed and win on power, where the other car seemed to have advantage on late braking and manouverability.
Luckily when I tried this the other driver went slightly wide, so I could take the inside. However doing this I was on his inside blocking his exit line. Nobody got blocked, but I believe there was a slight rub.

Not blocking the line in a turn of the leading car is sacred to me. I apologized after the race and called it an over the limit move. The other driver (Div 1) stated, are you kidding that was great overtaking.
 
bSUPERSPORT
You are only fooling and lying to yourself.:rolleyes:
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Explain.

Vince_Fiero
I had what I thought a racing incident similar to this a few weeks ago.

It was on Madrid Mini and we had been bumper to bumper since 2 rounds (very close since 25 or something), I was following.

On one hairpin I had noticed that I could take an early brake and have more speed in the turn itself. I was hoping to have the higher exit speed and win on power, where the other car seemed to have advantage on late braking and manouverability.
Luckily when I tried this the other driver went slightly wide, so I could take the inside. However doing this I was on his inside blocking his exit line. Nobody got blocked, but I believe there was a slight rub.

Not blocking the line in a turn of the leading car is sacred to me. I apologized after the race and called it an over the limit move. The other driver (Div 1) stated, are you kidding that was great overtaking.
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Hairpin bends are an easier decision to call, the one we have here are several bends linked together, hence the differing opinions! Good discussion here though.
 
Quattro drivers fault.

He was going for a gap which turned out to be too small. He should have been more patient and waiting for a better spot to make a move. Also he clearly has a hideous looking rear wing on his Quattro which makes it even easier to decide who is to blame.
 
Racing incident, a little 'fault' each way. If I am honest the Audi made his intentions quite clear when he ducked out of the tow onto the outside at the exit to the first part of the flat S heading for a tight inside line into the second. If I had been in the RX-7 I would have been expecting a lunge down the inside.

Looks to me as though the Audi is going to come out a little wide with that entry speed so if the driver of the RX-7 had checked his/her rear and side view he/she could have let off slightly, watched the Audi slip wide and tuck back inside him/her for a preferential track position coming into the gentle sweeping left that follows.
 
@dhandes
So far I tried to reserve from responding directly, but I feel like you're missing something (I'm the Audi driver, BTW, in case that's not understood)
Part of the problem in watching such a short part of the race is missing the broad picture... It was very much clear to me that the cars are very evenly matched overall, while the RX-7 has an advantage in straights the Quattro was faster through fast turns. I also knew that in this specific turn I got a better-faster line based on previous lap. (I had to slow down to avoid bumping him)
My driving line was aggressive but one that I was able to keep, I didn't lose grip, and I would have been able to exit without hitting the outside wall or slamming the brakes.

The question is not rather I attempted to 'lean on him' or pushed him out, but rather is my speed, line and position establish me as having the 'right of way' to the inside?.

@zutz, Thanks for making me laugh (rear wing....)
 
I only viewed this quickly (at work) and its an interesting point for discussion. Not 100% one way or the other. I voted Audi drivers fault, but just.
The main point for me is whether the RX7 driver left a cars width on the inside of the corner, which I believe there was at the time of the contact. The Audi driver was wide of the apex, probably as a result of aggressively braking to pull alongside. In my view, the RX7 was also following the corner's curvature whereas the Audi was already beginning to run out wide.
 
You have to think of the exit if the corner as well. That is a wide sloping exit, and imo would have plenty of space for both to exit side by side, and the rx7 had cut in to much (imo to defend, but the audi was there).
 
DeuceOfClub
@dhandes
So far I tried to reserve from responding directly, but I feel like you're missing something (I'm the Audi driver, BTW, in case that's not understood)
Part of the problem in watching such a short part of the race is missing the broad picture... It was very much clear to me that the cars are very evenly matched overall, while the RX-7 has an advantage in straights the Quattro was faster through fast turns. I also knew that in this specific turn I got a better-faster line based on previous lap. (I had to slow down to avoid bumping him)
My driving line was aggressive but one that I was able to keep, I didn't lose grip, and I would have been able to exit without hitting the outside wall or slamming the brakes.

The question is not rather I attempted to 'lean on him' or pushed him out, but rather is my speed, line and position establish me as having the 'right of way' to the inside?.

@zutz, Thanks for making me laugh (rear wing....)
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For right of my way, In my opinion, you didn't. That was always going to end in a collision. For attempting yes, not a problem but right of way and expecting a unimpeded route through than certainly not.
 
A combination of options 1 and 3 for me. Looking at the throttle/brake indicators, the RX-7 lifted off going into the left-hander part of the S-bend, but didn't really need to, so the opportunity would have been there for the Audi.

The Audi driver probably wasn't expecting the Mazda to turn in quite so much, and the Mazda probably was expecting such opportunism from the Audi. I'd say 90% racing incident, 10% fault of the Mazda driver for easing off so much and turning into the Audi who'd already committed to the move.
 
To clarify (more): Since I was not thinking he would pass at that time, I just took the chicane exactly as I would if I were by myself. By the time I was halfway through, in my opinion, there was not much leeway for me to have applied more throttle during exit, or I would have hit the right side wall all by myself. Remember that this is with Sports Hard tires. I grant, though, that my car tune probably has more room for improvement, because I didn't spend hours and hours on it.
 
I truly think the Audi made a bad move. The tight inside line of that turn does not set the car up for speed on exit or give you good entry for the right coming up. RX7 was on the racing line, IMO.


Audi needs to respect the lead car and learn to pass without hitting the other car. This turn/section is a follow the leader turn/section. If you had come beside the RX7 before entry of turn then the Audi would have rights to track. However Audi came in to hot and over did it after entry.

Learn to pass on exit and not entry. This will help a bunch on these incidents.

Sorry for grammar, typing from cell.
 
Audi clearly pulls out to start a pass attempt in the right-hander, and is well alongside due to this pre-positioning as the cars go into the left. It does appear to me that the Audi could have held his line had the RX-7 given him racing room, in fact both cars could likely have stayed side by side all the way through. Both cars need to make allowances for where the other cars are. Perhaps the Audi could have moved a bit more inside, but it was hardly wild and out of control. The RX-7 simply wasn't aware of him and turned right into the contact. He didn't really do anything dirty either, it was just a mistake, and a racing incident. Looks rather similar to what happened between Joe Nonnamaker and Memo Rojas in Rolex at Barber this weekend, just between cars fighting for position(and so should be aware of where each other are) instead of lapping a slower class car

So if there's fault, I'd say with the RX-7 but not a penalty-worthy offense unless of course it's a driver with a history of being conveniently unaware, and that appears to not be the case at all.

Of course, the GTP OLR rules seem to indicate that any problem is the overtaker's fault unless almost 100% alongside before anybody changes direction.

If the map hadn't been disallowed, and people could use the best tool in the game for replacing the game's lack of peripheral vision and proper sound-based spatial awareness, this could have been easily avoided. I almost always run with the map at zoom level 2 for exactly this reason. It's probably a little easier to see than in real-life(particularly in some MR cars), but without it it's a lot harder than real-life.
 
Seems to be a pretty good discussion here. We need a few of you guys to come over and join up for one of our many different racing series going on. Follow the link in my signature if you are interested. By the way, just for all fairness I submitted a vote for the no fault option same as I did on our website.
 
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