Racing Education

[kinigitt]

I have a specific type of corner that I still don't handle well and that is one which is just a bit sharper than a right-angle. Both of the ones in Rome Circuit and Laguna Seca give me trouble. I am getting better at both of these, but chances are it will take me a while more to do it right. I think the main thing is to slow down a bit more, but... there has to be more to it.

If anyone has suggestions on how to handle this kind of corner, I'd appreciate it.

Cheers,

MasterGT

Are you talking about the last corner on Laguna seca and the one roughly in the middle of the Rome circuit?

With both, I brake hard enough so that I can be accelerating smoothly just before the apex, and keep the power on all the way past. Sometimes it's too much for the tires as you're putting a big load on the outside front, so you have to set up your car so that the rear rotates easily when you're on the throttle (or on lift off). Also, you have to push hard, but not so hard that you clip the apex early and have to correct your steering and speed. Abrupt braking or steering slows you down a lot.

I never really drive the front wheel drive cars, so this applies mainly to rear and 4 wheel drive cars.

p.s. this is just what works for me in GT3. I'm not even that good. Maybe some of the good WRS participants can give you better tips.

 

[JohnBM01]

Segnit, I said that second part for anyone else who thinks this thread is boring. If I had a problem with you, I'd let you know in one way or another. But you're perfectly fine, Segnit. Fear not.

 

[MasterGT]

Are you talking about the last corner on Laguna seca and the one roughly in the middle of the Rome circuit?

Yes. I also should have pointed out that these are blind corners. I have a very difficult time even finding Laguna's corner, so I know a lot of that one boils down to just familiarity.

you have to set up your car so that...

Arcade mode doesn't always give us that option, so I need the technique more.

Cheers,

MasterGT

 

[neanderthal]

as someone has already mentioned, there is a difference between goin fast around a corner and around a track.

for lap speed you want the highest continual speed, and that might mean slowing donw in some corners to gain speed on the straight after a following corner. going fast around a corner is just that, with no regard or what follows.

as for what weight transfer does, it takes weight (traction) of certain tires at certain times. more rear traction on acceleration, front on braking, left on right turns, and right on left turns. combinations of turning, braking and accelerating compound this effect, so braking on a left turn will put the most weight on the right front tire.

smooth driving will help to alleviate abrupt motions that can cause a car to lose its balance in a corner, and make for faster lap times. if you're turning right at a sharp turn and just jump on the gas you are trying to use a tire that is lightly loaded, and likely to slip. this is why its important to ease onto the gas rather than just mash it.

elevation changes can also affect weight transfer. but thats marginal.

 

[F310B]

I know what you mean about Laguna Seca's last corner. I usually attempt to get the car in a position where I can begin accelerating out of the corner as early as possible, before I've actually hit the apex.

I watched Edmar's record S-6 license test time, 1:14.330 at Laguna Seca. He's really quick in the last two corners, taking the last 1 very smoothly. I can get within 2 tenths of his 3rd sector time (54.9-54.7), but can't get under a 1:15.001 for the whole lap. I think that suggests you need to be to pretty good to get those two corners right.

 

[Luxy]

You guys should check out some of the weekly race series replays. Week 85's winner, Mr. P ran Laguna Seca in 1'14.2 in the Loctite Skyline arcade car. His replay (click on the second link at the bottom, and scroll down to Week 85) has the steering, gas/brake and spedomemter visible so you can see just how he did it 👍

Also, if you're interested in learning about racing techniques, I'd highly recommend joining the Weekly Race Series (check here for registration info ). There's tons of knowledgeable drivers, and everyones friendly

Weekly Race Series Videos Thread

Weekly Race Series Videos

 

[MasterGT]

Since I am relatively new to manual shifting, here is another puzzle I haven't figured out yet. I know this is going to sound naive, but how are we supposed to change gears? Ok, OK! Stop snickering! In other words, how do we use the figures in the specs area to know what an engine likes in the way of shifts?

If you are driving, for example, on GVS after the first hairpin, there is a slight hill. A car could go up it in, say, 4th or 5th. 4th would put the RPMs higher up the power curve into the redline area and 5th would be pulling a bit more grunt out of the lower end. Some engines can spin _much_ faster than the start of the redline, which Auto uses, so do we lose a bit by doing shifting late? I presume that higher RPMs are better, so long as it doesn't hit the limiter, but how does this fit in with the recommendation of "using a car's specs", to really know when to shift gears, for each individual car?

I've also noticed that some people like to use the torque of an engine, but accelleration suffers when the revs drop too much. Hill climbers need revs and GT4 is going to have a diesle powered car, so...

How do we know what the right way to shift is?

MasterGT

 

[PhatFat]

Since I am relatively new to manual shifting, here is another puzzle I haven't figured out yet. I know this is going to sound naive, but how are we supposed to change gears? Ok, OK! Stop snickering! In other words, how do we use the figures in the specs area to know what an engine likes in the way of shifts?

If you are driving, for example, on GVS after the first hairpin, there is a slight hill. A car could go up it in, say, 4th or 5th. 4th would put the RPMs higher up the power curve into the redline area and 5th would be pulling a bit more grunt out of the lower end. Some engines can spin _much_ faster than the start of the redline, which Auto uses, so do we lose a bit by doing shifting late? I presume that higher RPMs are better, so long as it doesn't hit the limiter, but how does this fit in with the recommendation of "using a car's specs", to really know when to shift gears, for each individual car?

I've also noticed that some people like to use the torque of an engine, but accelleration suffers when the revs drop too much. Hill climbers need revs and GT4 is going to have a diesle powered car, so...

How do we know what the right way to shift is?

MasterGT

What I do is look at the grade of the hill take in to account me RPM and hp then................





Mash the gas and be glad I'm driving an automatic

 

[Segnit]

Hi guys, i had college and exams and i had no time to thank everyone for their contribution to the racing education purpose. Ontop of the people i have already thanked, i wanted to thank:

[Thanking people who posted]

-essell for providing a download for the GT2 manual.
-F310B for giving insight into the way he would take a corner.
-RX-7_FC_DrIfteR for adding the drift variable into the equation.
-neanderthal for the streamlining that his post brought. Absolutely clarification stuff 👍
-Luxy for the additional resources he provided by his links.
-Likewise i would also like to thank PhatFat and Wads for their light hearted comments. Though the less the bettter
-Oh, last but not least, thanks to plfrench. Honestly now, his message was short, vivid and input from his real life racing experience.

[/End of thanking]

Case in point? A big thank you to everyone who is contributing! 👍

Now i have two things to say. First up it to plfrench or anyone who can help solve my problem regarding post number 23 of this thread. What i want to clarify is two things. For one, i can vouch that he (Gregory) is a good driver. And lastly, just to clear things up... i refuse to believe that i'm better then Gregory just cause i beat him with more weight on my go-kart, no! There has to be some other explenatiion i.e. more weight = more grip in light weight go karts. After i did some reading around i found this thread Brake performance wrong in GT4 prologue!? from the GT4 prologue sub-forum. It's a great read. And some people have quiet a lot of insight about the relationship between the weight of a car and the grip of the tyres on the road. In particular read post number 35 from page two of that thread.

Oh one final thing... I think MasterGT asked some great questions which lead to even better answers. His last question about gear shifting is something that i, along with many others would like to know. Any help would be appreciated from a technicaly minded person!

 

[S31Ender]

Are you referring to this in real life ot GT?

In gt, overall brake wear and tear means nothing. But in real life it means a lot.

I do amataur endurance racing. And one of the most important things to remember is to minimize the wear and tear on the car........while still going fast.

Even in non-endurance racing it's still pretty important. The key issues with braking is......
If you brake late, yeah you may be able to pick up a 0.01th of a second on your time.......but!

If you brake early, go in nice and easy, and hope on the throttle a little sooner EXITING the corner, not only will you save on wear and tear of the brakes and the tires, but you will lose that 0.01th of a second...........to GAIN 0.10th of a second, because it translates to a higher overall speed down the next strait.

Where exactly to you begin to brake and where do you hop on the throttle?

What type of car are you in? How are your car settings comprimised? Are you running a endurance? or a sprint?

As well as......a million other questions.

The best way to do it is to take your car, buy a good set of track tires and go sign up with your local SCCA club. (non americans need to find your version). Not only do these guys like to help you out and teach you things, but they make sure you do it in a pretty safe setting.

http://www.scca.org/

Check out that link.
And not only do these guys do Autocross and track Time Trials, they do Club Rally as well.
*and no, I'm not a rep from scca. lmao. just a devoted fan who really has a lot of fun because these guys are cool and wants you to join in.*

S31Ender

 

[Luxy]

Since I am relatively new to manual shifting, here is another puzzle I haven't figured out yet. I know this is going to sound naive, but how are we supposed to change gears? Ok, OK! Stop snickering! In other words, how do we use the figures in the specs area to know what an engine likes in the way of shifts?

If you are driving, for example, on GVS after the first hairpin, there is a slight hill. A car could go up it in, say, 4th or 5th. 4th would put the RPMs higher up the power curve into the redline area and 5th would be pulling a bit more grunt out of the lower end. Some engines can spin _much_ faster than the start of the redline, which Auto uses, so do we lose a bit by doing shifting late? I presume that higher RPMs are better, so long as it doesn't hit the limiter, but how does this fit in with the recommendation of "using a car's specs", to really know when to shift gears, for each individual car?

I've also noticed that some people like to use the torque of an engine, but accelleration suffers when the revs drop too much. Hill climbers need revs and GT4 is going to have a diesle powered car, so...

How do we know what the right way to shift is?

MasterGT

Where to shift depends on the car, and it can make a pretty big difference.

The 1000m test can be helpful for figuring this out. Take your car to the 1000m test, and make sure that TCS is on to about 5 or so (you want to eliminate wheelspin so that you get consistent starts).

1st run: findwhere the rev limiter is.
Hold the gas fully down, and keep it held down as the test starts until the needle bounces off the rev limiter in 1st gear. Make a note of where this happens.

2nd run: baseline
Do a run shifting as close to the rev limiter as possible.

Subsequent runs: find the optimum upshift point
Do a series of runs, shifting 500 rpm lower on each run until you're shifting about 1000 rpm below redline.

The quickest run should tell you where you want to upshift, ideally.

Some skylines (I'm not sure exactly which one, offhand) are known for liking to shift about 500rpm below redline, while the RUF 3400s that I'm driving in the WRS this week likes to be shifted right at the rev limiter (about 500 rpm above redline).

If the car is running in the power band in two different gears, then don't shift (shift loses a bit of time on the gas, and for turbo cars, a bit of boost).

You don't have to be at very high rpm all the time, it just has to be in the powerband (on that skyline, redline is actually outside the powerband, hence the "early" shifting).

I don't honestly know how to objectively tell where the bottom of the powerband starts. Can anyone fill me in?

 

[Greyout]

the only way to detirmine exactly where the shift point is for each gear is if you have the following information:

A dyno graph of the engine's power @ the wheels
each gears ratio
the final drive ratio
the tire size
a calculator
lots of free time

you then graph the "force at the pavement" in 100 RPM incriments for each gear (or 50 RPM, or 25 RPM, or however accurate you want to be) on the Y axis, and speed on the X axis. The shift point is the point at which the torque multiplication of one gear drops & meets the torque multiplication of the next gear. After you have this graph plotted, you will have a visual representation of the vehicles actual acceleration, and you can see if there are any flaws in the gearing selection.

"force at the pavement" = torque at a specific RPM as measured on a dyno graph x gear ratio x final drive ratio / tire radius. You complete this equation in small RPM increments for each gear.

I did this once for a Honda civic w/ a B20-VTEC hybrid motor. It took about 2 hours to plot it properly (well 4 hours, but I did it at work and had distractions the whole time). It turned out that the Integra LS transmission that was on the car had gears that were WAY too long, and you could plainly see on this graph that even when taking the engine up to fuel cut in each gear, the gearing was very much the wrong choice for the car (except for the 4th-to-5th gear shift, which was to be made about 75 RPM shy of fuel cut)

 

[F310B]

I think where the powerband is can affect the lines you should take in slower corners. You want to avoid having to lift off to stay in the right rev range to get the power down on the exit of a corner, but you also want to avoid shifting mid-corner which will unsettle the car a bit. I'm not sure how this will work out in GT4.