Racing Soft Tires: Rendered Useless?

[psavi]

That doesn't mean much even if it was true. By that logic just about every car should be banned since they're all going faster than they should be.

Yes, they are unrealistic. That is the truth, whether you accept it or not.

Nothing would change except you would have more variety. You can challenge yourself all you want no matter what the restrictions are, whether you want to use GT500 car on CH tires against supercars or a Pickup truck on RS tires against those same cars.

The restrictions should be removed and replaced with suggested limits that can be ignored at will, or better yet make a free mode for racing so people can race in events they have an interest in.

I understand that people want more variety and want to be over with races faster, but tire restrictions are there for a reason. To try to get people to learn how to control cars with less grip, closer to the real life. Despite being a pitiful attempt to reproduce rules of an actual motorsport category, it is still an attempt. Where would you see a Sunday Cup that people use tires capable of accelations in excess of 1.5 g?

Suggested limits won't cut it. What I could agree on is variable payout for races depending on PP and tires you used. PD used the PP dependent payout on GT5 seasonals. I thought they would use this in GT6, but for my disappointment, they didn't.

 

[Convergent]

Super Glue Tires...

 

[Exorcet]

Yes, they are unrealistic. That is the truth, whether you accept it or not.

Saying that doesn't have any bearing on whether they are realistic or not.

I understand that people want more variety and want to be over with races faster, but tire restrictions are there for a reason.

Whatever that reason is, it's not a good one.

To try to get people to learn how to control cars with less grip, closer to the real life.

I doubt this, besides you could do the same by suggesting tires and not making them mandatory. That comes with the added bonus of people using lower grade tires willingly, which makes learning something a lot more likely. In the situation as it is people may just throw on whatever tire is needed, do the race and then go use RS tires somewhere else.

Besides, there is no reason why people need to learn to drive with less grip. The part about the tires being closer to reality is also pretty flimsy as the tires are generic, races don't always conform to real life series, and cars come in various levels of modification.

Despite being a pitiful attempt to reproduce rules of an actual motorsport category, it is still an attempt. Where would you see a Sunday Cup that people use tires capable of accelations in excess of 1.5 g?

If the Sunday Cup was unrestricted, there would not have to be 1.5 g of lateral acceleration. Cars of such performance are as valid as stock daily drivers anyway since the Sunday Cup is a generic fictional event. Even if it was real and they did restrict tires, there is again no reason why the player must be forced to conform to these rules.

Suggested limits won't cut it.

Why not? They are better. They let you play the game exactly as it is now and let you do things you can't do now. No one loses.

What I could agree on is variable payout for races depending on PP and tires you used.

I don't think you would see that in a real Sunday Cup.

 

[Wide Boy]

Let people use what they like just fix the tyre model & have wear on in all races as it should be.
You should get a couple of good laps out of RS before they become worse than RMs.

Better would be 4 or 5 types of racing tyre at the hard end of the range.
Your clubman racer is not on the same compound as your GT500 Formula 1 guy, not even close.
The old racers should probably be running around on something similar to CS, tyre technology has moved on a lot since then. Try the Toyota 7 on comfort softs & you will realise why it crashed.

Not stayed on top of this but if I remember correctly latest GT500 tyres are a lot better than a few years back or what GT3 uses currently so the game should tell you which is the tyre of choice.
Now you can if you want do a fairly realistic comparison between cars from different classes.

What about old road cars to you don't think they qualify for comfort tyres do you, CH at the very most but that's probably pushing it.

But yes you should be able to put on what you want, track day you stick budget race tyres on your car if you can & that's what your doing in this game.
In RL the gains you get depends on the car as you may well need to tune the suspension to handle the extra grip. You can end up with tramping issues lurching & all sorts not letting you take advantage of them.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Why not? They are better. They let you play the game exactly as it is now and let you do things you can't do now. No one loses.

That about sums it up for most of the game. There should be literally endless ways and combinations to approach any GT game from massive voluntary restrictions you place on yourself, to a giant free for all where you press a button and get every car in the game instantly. The more options you have the more people you appeal to, the more games you sell, the more revenue you have and the more money they have to develop a better overall package. Everyone wins

 

[psavi]

That about sums it up for most of the game. There should be literally endless ways and combinations to approach any GT game from massive voluntary restrictions you place on yourself, to a giant free for all where you press a button and get every car in the game instantly. The more options you have the more people you appeal to, the more games you sell, the more revenue you have and the more money they have to develop a better overall package. Everyone wins

You quoted the wrong person in your post. Just saying...

Saying that doesn't have any bearing on whether they are realistic or not.

What makes you believe they are realistic?

Whatever that reason is, it's not a good one.


I doubt this, besides you could do the same by suggesting tires and not making them mandatory. That comes with the added bonus of people using lower grade tires willingly, which makes learning something a lot more likely. In the situation as it is people may just throw on whatever tire is needed, do the race and then go use RS tires somewhere else.

Besides, there is no reason why people need to learn to drive with less grip. The part about the tires being closer to reality is also pretty flimsy as the tires are generic, races don't always conform to real life series, and cars come in various levels of modification.


If the Sunday Cup was unrestricted, there would not have to be 1.5 g of lateral acceleration. Cars of such performance are as valid as stock daily drivers anyway since the Sunday Cup is a generic fictional event. Even if it was real and they did restrict tires, there is again no reason why the player must be forced to conform to these rules.


Why not? They are better. They let you play the game exactly as it is now and let you do things you can't do now. No one loses.


I don't think you would see that in a real Sunday Cup.

I could use the same logic you used to retort my arguments to answer yours, but I won't.

Instead I want to try to understand your point of view. Why do you want to be able to use Racing Softs on any race? What do you hope to achieve by doing that?

 

[Exorcet]

What makes you believe they are realistic?

I never said they were, but I'm not going to boil down realism to a simple grip value. Tires are more complex than that. GT traditionally has been lacking in terms of tire model. That has made it pretty senseless to argue against one type of tire when it's not better or worse than any other tire compound, in terms of simulation, by design.

Instead I want to try to understand your point of view. Why do you want to be able to use Racing Softs on any race? What do you hope to achieve by doing that?

I hardly use RS tires, in fact I online I practically avoid them like the plague. This is about about what I want, it's about logic. There is no benefit to forcing a player to use a specific type of tire, but there is the possible detriment of the player not liking that tire. Why should someone need to put up with something they don't want to? It is to me bad game design, and it goes beyond the tire issue. It's why Arcade Mode is GT is so terrible - you're terribly limited in what you can do.

 

[psavi]

I never said they were, but I'm not going to boil down realism to a simple grip value. Tires are more complex than that. GT traditionally has been lacking in terms of tire model. That has made it pretty senseless to argue against one type of tire when it's not better or worse than any other tire compound, in terms of simulation, by design.

Okay, that I can agree on. But then if you go by that logic, not even iRacing is realistic. No tire model can reproduce all the intricacies of a real tire. Probably there will never be a model that will be able to do that and be fast enough to be used in a real-time simulation.

I hardly use RS tires, in fact I online I practically avoid them like the plague. This is about about what I want, it's about logic. There is no benefit to forcing a player to use a specific type of tire, but there is the possible detriment of the player not liking that tire. Why should someone need to put up with something they don't want to? It is to me bad game design, and it goes beyond the tire issue. It's why Arcade Mode is GT is so terrible - you're terribly limited in what you can do.

If you don't use RS tires, what do you win by eliminating tire restrictions? Contrary to what @Johnnypenso said, I don't think sales would increase much just by increasing some options and letting people decide if they want to restrict themselves or not. IMO, options in video games must have pros and cons, to keep things interesting. What would be the disadvantage of using only RS tires?

I compare it to saying: "I really like Final Fantasy but I don't want to get through all these boring fights. I just want to watch the story. Devs should give me a button to instantly win any fight". No, you don't like Final Fantasy. Fights are the core mechanics of the game.

IMHO, Arcade Mode in GT is bad because it doesn't feel like motorsport, the limitations are weird and the AI is not competitive. I think limitations should still exist, but should be more like real life regulations.

 

[Exorcet]

Okay, that I can agree on. But then if you go by that logic, not even iRacing is realistic. No tire model can reproduce all the intricacies of a real tire. Probably there will never be a model that will be able to do that and be fast enough to be used in a real-time simulation.

My problem with GT is not less than 100% authentic modeling, it's less than the current satisfactory level for simulators.

If you don't use RS tires, what do you win by eliminating tire restrictions?

The ability to use RS tires for any reason if I decide to in the future. But I don't think the above is really a valid question because removing the limits doesn't get in the way of anything.

What is lost by having free reign on tire selection? Unless someone loses something terribly important there simply can't be a good reason to enforce the restrictions. Seeing as single player only affects one person, no one really can lose anything by removing the restrictions.

Contrary to what @Johnnypenso said, I don't think sales would increase much just by increasing some options and letting people decide if they want to restrict themselves or not. IMO, options in video games must have pros and cons, to keep things interesting. What would be the disadvantage of using only RS tires?

I think giving the player complete control to make their fun would drastically increase the game's appeal. Ideally, people wouldn't have anything to not like about the game, they could fix any problems themselves.

There isn't any disadvantage to using only RS tires. If someone wanted to play through the game in such a way, it wouldn't affect me or anyone else.

I compare it to saying: "I really like Final Fantasy but I don't want to get through all these boring fights. I just want to watch the story. Devs should give me a button to instantly win any fight". No, you don't like Final Fantasy. Fights are the core mechanics of the game.

I don't see why not liking the combat would mean they don't like FF, there is more to it than combat. The autowin button would be a reasonable feature, very similar to the console commands that separate PC versions of TES games from console versions, with console versions being very bland and restricting in comparison. The general consensus I gather from TES players I've spoken to is that the hard limits on the console games are simply boring. This is true even if you enjoy playing within those rules - it might not be something you want to do all the time.

A big difference between your FF example and the tire restriction though is that GT isn't about using non RS tires. It's about racing. The GT analogue to your FF example is a button that skips racing.

IMHO, Arcade Mode in GT is bad because it doesn't feel like motorsport, the limitations are weird and the AI is not competitive. I think limitations should still exist, but should be more like real life regulations.

All of these issues could be fixed if the player had unlimited, unrestricted options. What benefit would restrictions add to arcade mode at all? They would just make it a redundant, a bland clone of A-Spec.

Don't you agree that if nothing is lost, there is no negative impact to the game?

 

[ELPhantomII]

"No racing softs, stock only, Final Destination!"

Personally, I don't see why some people's decision to avoid using racing anything tires should have any bearing on what other people are allowed to use. Why should people be disallowed from using what they want because YOU don't want to want to use them? Especially if it's in career mode or any other mode of the game that doesn't have its statistics compared to others. Them enjoying their game in the way they want will not affect your gaming experience in offline modes.

 

[TRC GeorgiaDawg]

I don't get the racing tire hatred in GT. In Forza, it's just assumed you're going to use the best tire possible for whatever build you can make for that class....whether they're stock or racing, noone really cares. Of course, tire type counts in the PI formulation on that game so that comes into play. But still, I wonder how many who automatically decry them as "unrealistic" have ever actually driven a real race car on racing slicks? I admit I haven't, and I'll give people that using them on a 200hp Celica is a bit much, but what I see on TV watching real racers driving real racecars the racing tires are pretty close IMO. Maybe a tad too much grip, but by no means some kind of auto pilot like some want to make them out to be. Anyways, to me, too much grip is more realistic than nowhere near enough. There's nothing realistic about a race car on street tires.

Agree with the OP. Absolutely no reason for there to be limits on anything in career. Especially after you've already completed a event.

 

[psavi]

...

Don't you agree that if nothing is lost, there is no negative impact to the game?

No, I don't.

What I know is that I like the way it is better than the way it was in GT5.

So, I think it is better if we should stop this argument, cause clearly we will not be reaching an agreement.

I respect your opinion and you respect mine.

 

[Wide Boy]

Wow I don't understand the drama its simple really

Single player let people use whatever they like, its just another option like ASM etc you can choose to have it on or off.

Online just put an option to restrict tyres like in the main game races.
You can use any tyre up to the best or decide you don't want to participate

Admittedly when you go on line you should set your preferred settings for racing, ASM tyres etc as a filter & it should only show races available that are at your settings or above.

 

[Exorcet]

What I know is that I like the way it is better than the way it was in GT5.

Then you have nothing to lose. You would literally have the exact same, without any difference what-so-ever GT6 experience if GT6 did not force race regulations.

So, I think it is better if we should stop this argument, cause clearly we will not be reaching an agreement.

I respect your opinion and you respect mine.

Yes, respect. Disagreement doesn't mean anger or lack of respect. I'm just saying this in general, not aimed at you, but discussion don't really need phrases like this, unless one side is being unreasonably hostile.

Though bringing up opinion, I'm not trying to shut out your opinion out. In fact I'm saying it's important, but not more important than anyone else's. Your way of managing the game is simply selfish. You demand that your way of playing must be there, fair enough. You then demand that other people's way of playing must be excluded. That's not good. I doubt you would accept if people were demanding that your preferred method of gameplay must be excluded.

Online just put an option to restrict tyres like in the main game races.
You can use any tyre up to the best or decide you don't want to participate

Online is different and I think the host should have total control, and of course every player has the option to be a host so that all tastes are met. The issue with online is that people may cheat or try to disregard rules or the spirit of the room which is at the sole discretion of the host, so the host needs to be able to enforce things.

There can also be preset rooms made by PD or alternate hosting methods like a rotating host position/majority rule that exist along side "host is god" rooms.

I kind of wonder why game design is so stagnant sometimes, and we lack all of these features.

Admittedly when you go on line you should set your preferred settings for racing, ASM tyres etc as a filter & it should only show races available that are at your settings or above.

If they do this, it should be well thought out. For example, at your settings and above may not be ideal. Filtering from rooms that only meet your needs exactly wouldn't be hard to code. I know you're just posting examples quickly, but if they actually do implement these things, they should be fairly thorough. The lack of ability to set PP, HP, and weight at the same time in GT5 was a gross error that was never corrected.

 

[ronpfid]

Compared to real cars, all the tires are unrealistic.. But unrealistic in the opposite of what many say. Can you get in your real car right now, drive at 35mph, turn the wheel , break all 4 tires loose and and go into a 30 foot sideways slide across dry warm pavement? Not hardly, if your tires slip, they will slip a bit then grab. You'll tilt and roll not slide like your on ice. But, in GT6 we can slide uncontrollably even with an expensive maximally tuned car on 6000 dollar soft sports tires. IMO, soft racing tires in the game have almost as much traction at slow speeds as bald cheap tires do in real life.

Could you imagine if real car tires handled as bad as the tires in GT6? People would be squealing tires and sliding around just changing lanes on the freeway lol

 

[ChromeBallz]

No tire restrictions and no PP restrictions this is the only way to go in this game. But PD messed up on this game big by putting in the tire and PP restriction is so wrong and of course taking away the fun in this game And that what PD did is to take away the fun. Thanks PD.

So you would find it fun if you can run every single race with the red bull x2014?

Mario Kart is that way ->

 

[Johnnypenso]

So you would find it fun if you can run every single race with the red bull x2014?

Mario Kart is that way ->

Better question is...how is YOUR game affected if he, or anyone, chooses to race that way?

 

[Exorcet]

So you would find it fun if you can run every single race with the red bull x2014?

Yes.

Mario Kart is that way ->

Who cares, it's not a simulator.

 

[ChromeBallz]

Better question is...how is YOUR game affected if he, or anyone, chooses to race that way?

Fair question, but it doesn't change the fact that removing all limits in all races would remove any sense of progression from the career races. It's bad game design, at least now there's at least a semblance of thought behind the restrictions.

 

[Exorcet]

Fair question, but it doesn't change the fact that removing all limits in all races would remove any sense of progression from the career races.

I don't see how, but there is no reason why suggested restrictions can't be used instead, leaving you with the same game as now and letting others do whatever they want to do.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Fair question, but it doesn't change the fact that removing all limits in all races would remove any sense of progression from the career races. It's bad game design, at least now there's at least a semblance of thought behind the restrictions.

Removes the sense of progression for YOU. I don't want or need a sense of progression, I just want to drive and tune a lot of cars. Bad game design prevents me from doing that. I suspect that after 6 very similar versions of the career mode, many of us feel the same way. Either way, offering us optional ways to play the game broadens it's appeal and makes the series more inclusive. I can't see how that's a bad thing.

 

[johnnyking]

And there are a couple of races in the S still require sports tyres with normal cars. I don't even understand why they are there - isn't the final class supposed to be some pure racing rather than toying with low grip sliding? PD thinks it's more fun to drive those "super cars on sports" than a Formula GT?

 

[CBH]

So you would find it fun if you can run every single race with the red bull x2014?

No I do not want the red bull in every race but in GT5 PD had it right with all the racing events and the way it war set out it was good. In GT6 should have been the same that it was in GT5 racing events and the way it was set out that's why I said no PP restrictions for this game especially the car. The online Time Trials and Seasonal races I have no problem with restrictions. And that is my opinion

 

[sailworksman]

To try to get people to learn how to control cars with less grip, closer to the real life.

Why would I want to do this in a video game when I can do it daily with my commuter car? In the words of Homer Simpson; Borrrrrring

 

[Vagabond]

Why would I want to do this in a video game when I can do it daily with my commuter car? In the words of Homer Simpson; Borrrrrring

If you drive your car at the limit on public roads, you really need your license taking off you.

 

[sailworksman]

If you drive your car at the limit on public roads, you really need your license taking off you.

To a local track, and when I can on local roads.

 

[MrUnknown]

The day when I put RS on a KTM, was the day that s:censored:t really happened....

 

[Wide Boy]

Vagabond said
If you drive your car at the limit on public roads, you really need your license taking off you.

To a local track, and when I can on local roads.

A few years back that would be virtually every Italian then, most of Italy seemed to get around on little scooters or in Fiat 500s.
You didn't see many slow for corners unless they really had to because it would take ages to get back up to speed.