Racing soft tyres...wtf?

[Stakado]

Hi everyone.
I put a racing soft tyres in my Citroen gt gr3 to win the wtc world series.
Fine, I try the car and...what the hell? Where is the grip? The back of the car spin in every brake and feels like there isn't aero at all.
I put again the racing hard ones, and I do better lap times! How is this possible?

 

[Silverfox1984]

Hi everyone.
I put a racing soft tyres in my Citroen gt gr3 to win the wtc world series.
Fine, I try the car and...what the hell? Where is the grip? The back of the car spin in every brake and feels like there isn't aero at all.
I put again the racing hard ones, and I do better lap times! How is this possible?

Possibly a bit too grippy? I had the same issue with the Porsche 911 GT3 (997). It was spinning out every time I approached a corner with RS tyres on, so I lowered the front aero downforce and it seemed to correct it.

GTPlanet also has some amazing setups for certain cars that I find helps.

 

[Stakado]

Could be that, but I fell the car don't turn correctly, and there is no grip in high speed turns. Not more grip than the racing hard at all

 

[EngieDiesel]

It could be a number of things. Softer tire compounds are not just a direct upgrade that automatically make the car take all corners at higher speeds, the car has to be set up to take advantage of that extra grip and depending on whether the engine has its power at the low or high end of the RPM range, it may make certain types of corners easier or more difficult to get around. It's also dependent of the track too, race cars are picky critters and the same kind of corner on two different tracks can feel completely different.

Another thing to consider is that the car you're using is a mid-engine car, so it's going to be more sensitive to weight shifts and when the back breaks loose, it's going to be much harder to get it back under control. You may need to adjust your driving style a bit to prevent the car from being thrown too hard into the corner entry, if that's where the problem is.

 

[RacingFan1]

Problem is not the tires but the suspension settings and overall tuning settings. In this game some cars are awfully tuned by default (stock) and you definitely need to make changes to make them work well.
Most specifically many MR cars with a lot of weight at the back, ridiculously easy for the tail to lose grip and spin. That needs to be addressed by changing the suspension and differential

 

[Stakado]

But the fact, is then with the same setup, racing hard seems to have almost same grip, and much better stability

 

[Nielsen]

Tires in GT7 aren’t very grippy compared to how they performed in GT Sport. It’s especially noticeable on cars with MR or RR layouts, because none of the tire compounds are grippy enough to counter such weight distributions.

One technique to combat this without resorting to tuning is throttle modulation. Essentially never lift off the throttle through turns, but instead opt for a partial throttle technique. Just apply enough throttle to keep forward momentum without accelerating. It can do wonders to manage the car’s balance.

It’s hardly ever an issue with FF and FR cars, because having the engine positioned up front acts like a natural counterweight to these forces.

 

[Sage Ages]

Harder tires are more forgiving to drive with.

 

[wheelhp]

I would try tyre swapping. Put the grippy ones on the front and the harder ones on the back, see what happens, if it turns better.
Many games especially with AWD cars, I'd have to use this strategy, just so the rear grip doesn't cancel out the front

 

[Voodoovaj]

But the fact, is then with the same setup, racing hard seems to have almost same grip, and much better stability

IMHO, I believe they have done a better job of making setups and tires more realistic. In the past, the best setup was always minimum weight and RS tires. Suspension and power were afterthoughts in comparison. Now, you have to consider that a car is faster with more weight and a little less grip. You may have too much grip up front, making the back get loose.

I think each car is going to require a more thoughtful approach to set up. I have noticed some cars are just not "RS" cars. A great example is the GR Supra. With mine (at least, I cannot speak for others) I had it at 650pp, full weight, and RS tires. When I dropped the weight one step (PP increase), and then put RM tires on it (PP decrease). I was 2 seconds a lap faster around the full Kyoto track.

It could be that you need to dial mechanical grip out of your setup. The chassis and suspension might over react to the extra grip.

 

[Confus]

But the fact, is then with the same setup, racing hard seems to have almost same grip, and much better stability

The car probably isn’t oversteering as much with the hard tires.

 

[Try_Rebooting]

I just found this forum today, after having experienced the same problems with my ‘81 911. I went from SS to RS tyres and my car spins out if I even think of braking.

I’m not a race engineer or a car mechanic. I know nothing about how how cars perform IRL and I don’t pretend to.

I don’t know what’s realistic and what’s PD just not knowing how to code.

 

[lbpomg95]

I just found this forum today, after having experienced the same problems with my ‘81 911. I went from SS to RS tyres and my car spins out if I even think of braking.

I’m not a race engineer or a car mechanic. I know nothing about how how cars perform IRL and I don’t pretend to.

I don’t know what’s realistic and what’s PD just not knowing how to code.

Have you modified the car in any other way, or does it just have the stock, soft suspension with slick tyres?

 

[Try_Rebooting]

Have you modified the car in any other way, or does it just have the stock, soft suspension with slick tyres?

The only upgrad was from CS to SS with racing brakes. Car seemed to run fine.

Then the handling when south with the additional RS tyres

 

[Famine]

The only upgrad was from CS to SS with racing brakes. Car seemed to run fine.

Then the handling when south with the additional RS tyres

Comfort and Sport tyres are both road tyres, designed to mix grip and durability with all-weather usefulness. They'll max out at about 1.2G before they start to slip. Racing tyres are slicks, they are designed for grip, grip, and more grip; depending on application a race tyre can run 5G+.

The additional grip - particularly under braking with weight transfer to the front axle, and particularly on a rear-engined car known for its tendency to wag the tail - is simply overwhelming the suspension's ability to cope with it.

 

[Try_Rebooting]

Comfort and Sport tyres are both road tyres, designed to mix grip and durability with all-weather usefulness. They'll max out at about 1.2G before they start to slip. Racing tyres are slicks, they are designed for grip, grip, and more grip; depending on application a race tyre can run 5G+.

The additional grip - particularly under braking with weight transfer to the front axle, and particularly on a rear-engined car known for its tendency to wag the tail - is simply overwhelming the suspension's ability to cope with it.

Ah good!

Like I said, I know next to nothing about this irl. So when something like this happens I don’t know if it’s me just driving wrong, or a problem with PD’s code or something else entirely.

Adding the opinions (some right, some wrong) of everyone here. It just gets a little overwhelming 😂

At least I know what direction to move in now! Cheers

 

[kilesa4568]

I haven't been on the game for a while but assuming the tyre model is the same, they're easy to cook with a few seconds of sliding and need a cooling off period to bring them back down. Keep pushing them and they turn to into a soggy mess.

 

[FOG-Smokebeer]

Ah good!

Like I said, I know next to nothing about this irl. So when something like this happens I don’t know if it’s me just driving wrong, or a problem with PD’s code or something else entirely.

Adding the opinions (some right, some wrong) of everyone here. It just gets a little overwhelming 😂

At least I know what direction to move in now! Cheers

Try the tunning section m8 Praiano's tunes are good after a while you start to notice a pattern for each drive train ff/awd/rwd i like to drive it stock and get a time then drive it tuned then start to tinker to suit my style (or lack of).

PRAIANO'S TUNES : SETTINGS FOR GT7

PRAIANO'S TUNES : SETTINGS FOR GT7 Thank you to everyone for your continued donations. I have 24 years experience of playing GT and 15 tuning cars to improve handling and be more competitive. For many years I have shared those settings with the community for free in the GTPlanet Forums...

www.gtplanet.net

 

[Boxster]

IMHO, I believe they have done a better job of making setups and tires more realistic. In the past, the best setup was always minimum weight and RS tires. Suspension and power were afterthoughts in comparison. Now, you have to consider that a car is faster with more weight and a little less grip. You may have too much grip up front, making the back get loose.

I think each car is going to require a more thoughtful approach to set up. I have noticed some cars are just not "RS" cars. A great example is the GR Supra. With mine (at least, I cannot speak for others) I had it at 650pp, full weight, and RS tires. When I dropped the weight one step (PP increase), and then put RM tires on it (PP decrease). I was 2 seconds a lap faster around the full Kyoto track.

It could be that you need to dial mechanical grip out of your setup. The chassis and suspension might over react to the extra grip.

Perhaps, I am not qualified to judge this as I haven't driven race cars irl. Also, I don't mind a bit of challenge. But the grip and behaviour does feel way off in some cars. I understand many older cars were quite a handful, or even outright dangerous. But I find some of the setups for modern cars rediculously bad. Why do the Gr4 Huracan and many other modern cars simply lose their back ends if you brake hard? You cannot even adjust the break distribution enough to dial that out. That's silly. Why do some modern cars have incurable understeer or oversteer? Maybe I am wrong, but it does not feel right.

Ah good!

Like I said, I know next to nothing about this irl. So when something like this happens I don’t know if it’s me just driving wrong, or a problem with PD’s code or something else entirely.

Adding the opinions (some right, some wrong) of everyone here. It just gets a little overwhelming 😂

At least I know what direction to move in now! Cheers

So if you switch from C or S tires to racing tires, you have to stiffen up the suspension considerably to cope with the extra grip.

 

[B80]

So if you switch from C or S tires to racing tires, you have to stiffen up the suspension considerably to cope with the extra grip.

It'd be interesting to know this mate. For clueless people like myself, you used to be able to just stick better tyres onto any car in GT, at least in older ones I used to play, and the car grip would simply get better and better as you moved up through the tyres. Now seems there may be more to it... more realistic? Not sure if its mentioned in beyond the apex (i've had a quick look and nothing around this beyond some tyre mgmt stuff, which most of cant even be monitored/analyzed in the game.... Imagine all the casual players who just stick better tyres on and the car doesn;t grip as well. How are they supposed to know this, is it assumed most players have some knowledge that they need to start playing around with the suspension... seems a bit odd, seeing the amount of casuals that'd play this game. I think its unreasonable and unrealistic to expect a large % of players to go away, source and read a load of technical stuff around tyres, physics. I usually look at some of the pages I find and find myself falling asleep almost immediately . Partciularly as theres question marks over how realistic some of the settings are anyway, such as ride hide. How do we know its even worth trawling through dry, technicalpages on the internet, and not some weird glitch in gt thats causing the behaviour.

 

[CodeRedR51]

It'd be interesting to know this mate. For clueless people like myself, you used to be able to just stick better tyres onto any car in GT, at least in older ones I used to play, and the car grip would simply get better and better as you moved up through the tyres. Now seems there may be more to it... more realistic? Not sure if its mentioned in beyond the apex (i've had a quick look and nothing around this beyond some tyre mgmt stuff, which most of cant even be monitored/analyzed in the game.... Imagine all the casual players who just stick better tyres on and the car doesn;t grip as well. How are they supposed to know this, is it assumed most players have some knowledge that they need to start playing around with the suspension... seems a bit odd, seeing the amount of casuals that'd play this game. I think its unreasonable and unrealistic to expect a large % of players to go away, source and read a load of technical stuff around tyres, physics. I usually look at some of the pages I find and find myself falling asleep almost immediately

It follows real life. You can't stick soft racing slicks on a normal car and expect it to behave properly.

 

[B80]

It follows real life. You can't stick soft racing slicks on a normal car and expect it to behave properly.

Cheers, well thats re-assuring at least. Like I say, not sure when they changed this, as previously on older GT's, you could just stick racing softs on whatever and guarantee it would get best grip possible without further changes , which I guess is ridiculous and too arcadey,

 

[CodeRedR51]

Cheers, well thats re-assuring at least. Like I say, not sure when they changed this, as previously on older GT's, you could just stick racing softs on whatever and guarantee it would get best grip possible without further changes , which I guess is ridiculous and too arcadey,

I once put slick tires on one of my personal cars to try them out at a track day and had to come back to the pits after only one lap because it was clear that the car couldn't handle them. It becomes immediately apparent that other things need to be upgraded to handle the extra grip.

I applaud PD for making changes like this in the game. Same goes with the tires rubbing on the fenders when you lower too much, effecting the turning radius.

 

[Boxster]

It'd be interesting to know this mate. For clueless people like myself, you used to be able to just stick better tyres onto any car in GT, at least in older ones I used to play, and the car grip would simply get better and better as you moved up through the tyres. Now seems there may be more to it... more realistic? Not sure if its mentioned in beyond the apex (i've had a quick look and nothing around this beyond some tyre mgmt stuff, which most of cant even be monitored/analyzed in the game.... Imagine all the casual players who just stick better tyres on and the car doesn;t grip as well. How are they supposed to know this, is it assumed most players have some knowledge that they need to start playing around with the suspension... seems a bit odd, seeing the amount of casuals that'd play this game. I think its unreasonable and unrealistic to expect a large % of players to go away, source and read a load of technical stuff around tyres, physics. I usually look at some of the pages I find and find myself falling asleep almost immediately . Partciularly as theres question marks over how realistic some of the settings are anyway, such as ride hide. How do we know its even worth trawling through dry, technicalpages on the internet, and not some weird glitch in gt thats causing the behaviour.

I have struggled with suspension setups myself too. But I am slowly learning. Three tips:

• read through the suspension chapters of the online manual and beyond the apex carefully (they are under GTMenu at the left top) for some basic understanding
• start tuning your suspension for your cars paying attention to the effect your changes have on pp. Higher pp mostly means a better setup. Not always, sometimes you need to accept slightly lower pp for a more stable setup
• very basically: comfort and sports tires usually require a spring natural frequency of about 1.5 - 2 Hertz, racing tires about 3.5 - 4.

You have to play a bit with the suspension setup, but after a bit you can get a feel for it. Looking at expert tuning setups such as Praiano and Exeter is also helpful.

 

[B80]

I have struggled with suspension setups myself too. But I am slowly learning. Three tips:

• read through the suspension chapters of the online manual and beyond the apex carefully (they are under GTMenu at the left top) for some basic understanding
• start tuning your suspension for your cars paying attention to the effect your changes have on pp. Higher pp mostly means a better setup. Not always, sometimes you need to accept slightly lower pp for a more stable setup
• very basically: comfort and sports tires usually require a spring natural frequency of about 1.5 - 2 Hertz, racing tires about 3.5 - 4.

You have to play a bit with the suspension setup, but after a bit you can get a feel for it. Looking at expert tuning setups such as Praiano and Exeter is also helpful.

appreciate you taking the time to do that. I tend to overthink things, reading fair bit online on this forum, then someone says its glitched, then I take car out to try tuning, then after a couple of laps just think sod it, I only have limited time, I'll stick to Praiano or Shaun (at the Exeter Tuning department) .

But do have curiosty to learn more and implement it, so will give it a proper go, when I get more time back in my life...

 

[Jeff Goji]

But the fact, is then with the same setup, racing hard seems to have almost same grip, and much better stability

I noticed this weird lack of stability with the racing soft tires as well, it's not that they don't have more grip, they do as I always end up faster with them installed compared to Racing Hard tires on an otherwise stock car on the same track.
I firmly believe it has to do with the weird way they are trying to model how the grippier tires allow more slip-angle before they let go, but when they let go it's a much sharper drop-off in grip and can be harder to catch and drive at the limit than the harder compound tires.

A good way to see this in Action is either the Ferrari Enzo or the Ferrari La'Ferrari (such a stupid name...). On regular street tires or Race Hard tires they tend to understeer more and don't rotate as easily when you lift off the gas. When they do start to rotate they will start sliding at either end much sooner but are easier to balance at and over the limit.
A set of Racing Soft tires allows the car to rotate when you lift off the throttle much more easily. They also grip when you begin to apply the gas out of a corner with that greater slip angle indicating they do have a greater overlap of steering/throttle/brake inputs like a real race tire would have.
You also have a greater overlap of turning and braking with the Race Soft tires which allows you to trail brake even more into a corner compared to a Race Hard tire.

Where GT7 is a little odd to me having come from driving many stock and modified cars on Hoosier A7s is the difficulty level in sliding the car on the Race Soft compound. A Hoosier equipped car either stock or modified is instantly faster in real life and is much easier to catch when you overstep the limits than a Race Soft tire equipped car in GT7, but I think part of that has to do with the real life seat of the pants feel versus only having a steering wheel and our eyes and ears to rely on in the video game.
GT Sport is actually a little more accurate to real life with how the car can slide and recover, but the latest updates to GT7 have improved the experience a little bit.

Some cars in the game will to do some tweaking to the suspension, aero, and LSD to make them drive decently on the Race Soft tires. Some cars like the La'Ferrari and Enzo are just naturally better driving cars on the stickier rubber without any further tweaks.

 

[ScottPuss20]

It'd be interesting to know this mate. For clueless people like myself, you used to be able to just stick better tyres onto any car in GT, at least in older ones I used to play, and the car grip would simply get better and better as you moved up through the tyres. Now seems there may be more to it... more realistic? Not sure if its mentioned in beyond the apex (i've had a quick look and nothing around this beyond some tyre mgmt stuff, which most of cant even be monitored/analyzed in the game.... Imagine all the casual players who just stick better tyres on and the car doesn;t grip as well. How are they supposed to know this, is it assumed most players have some knowledge that they need to start playing around with the suspension... seems a bit odd, seeing the amount of casuals that'd play this game. I think its unreasonable and unrealistic to expect a large % of players to go away, source and read a load of technical stuff around tyres, physics. I usually look at some of the pages I find and find myself falling asleep almost immediately . Partciularly as theres question marks over how realistic some of the settings are anyway, such as ride hide. How do we know its even worth trawling through dry, technicalpages on the internet, and not some weird glitch in gt thats causing the behaviour.

You don't need to be a genius to understand that grippier tyres need stiffer springs to work properly. Road car suspension is designed to handle road tyres, so they won't be able to exploit the full capability of a racing tyre.

 

[B80]

You don't need to be a genius to understand that grippier tyres need stiffer springs to work properly. Road cars are designed to handle road tyres, and race cars are designed to handle racing tyres, so the suspension settings will naturally be different.

Yeah, guess it shows up my ignorance more than anything else...

I've always had a thing for cars, but following motor sport career goes as far as watching f1 back in the 80's/90's with my dad. After that, just playing video games and buying the odd high performance car IRL. But never had appetite to get more technical beyond bhp, engine size, bhp. rwd/4wd etc.

So literally had zero idea around gripper tyres/slicks need stiffer springs!

 

[pedrocor]

Comfort and Sport tyres are both road tyres, designed to mix grip and durability with all-weather usefulness. They'll max out at about 1.2G before they start to slip. Racing tyres are slicks, they are designed for grip, grip, and more grip; depending on application a race tyre can run 5G+.

The additional grip - particularly under braking with weight transfer to the front axle, and particularly on a rear-engined car known for its tendency to wag the tail - is simply overwhelming the suspension's ability to cope with it.

Yes, that. As you said racing tires need stiffer suspension and anti roll bars to cope with the increase of weight transfer. Also very important is the camber angle, as slick racing tires have better contact patch area with significant negative (except on the inside tires on ovals, but that is whole another world and GT doesn't allow asymmetrical setups anyway) camber angle, while comfort or sport tires work better with almost no camber angle. Of course it depends the car, but usually you will need suspension adjustments transitioning from road tires to slick racing tires.

 

[wheelhp]

Really with even GT6 and GT Sport it was this way, if you optimally tuned a car on sports soft tyres then switched to racing softs, chance are the tune would not be comfortable but hack and slash at you. I think with GT7 this is even more the case. A good thing in terms of realism I suppose when you think about it. Real slicks have more high grip all around the tyre compared to your average sport tyre which has that stiffer sidewall rubber that aren't good for cornering on. They're very different tyre types and handle very differently even if you could somehow make them out of the same rubber.