Racing softs in the wet.....

T

theeggroaster

10
England
England
theeggroaster
PD desperately need to fix this issue as in makes the 24 minute races easy. They degrade slower than hards in the dry and have more grip than the intermediates/wets. Further more the A.I change tyres on the first laps as they always seem to start with hards.
 
Race Softs degrade slower than Hards in the dry? That's interesting, I didn't use them so I didn't notice. I just ran all the S races and Mediums wore out faster than Hards for sure. It also seemed like some of the races had different wear settings, as Hards didn't last as long in some races as others but I didn't really pay attention to which. Fuel seemed to always go at the same rate so maybe not. Sports Hards didn't seem to last as long as Race Hards either which was surprising, but again it was different races and cars. Race Hards didn't wear at all when it was wet, and even with a dry track most of the time they were only worn down to 7 or 8 at worst when I pitted with them(if I even needed to pit).

The Wet tires being usless thing is clearly something they've done by design as it is part of the low grip reduction setting they always use for career races. It was the same way in GT5. Use wets if you want more challenge or to be "fair," stay on drys if you want it to be a little easier or to not look like a moron pitting every lap. Of course since the GT6 "enduros" are just silly 15-30 minute sprints with rapidly changing weather, the track almost never stays wet long enough for taking extra pit stops to make any sense at all.

Maybe if we're lucky they'll add proper options to Arcade races like they did in GT5 and we can run something that resembles proper enduros there where the AI is a bit better anyway.

The AI starts on a variety of tires in those races, by the way. Some are on all three compounds usually, and I almost think I saw one that started on Intermediates.

What I found odd was that I seemed to always start gaining lots of time on all of them the instant it began raining, no matter the condition of the track.
 
Morgoth_666
Race Softs degrade slower than Hards in the dry? That's interesting, I didn't use them so I didn't notice. I just ran all the S races and Mediums wore out faster than Hards for sure. It also seemed like some of the races had different wear settings, as Hards didn't last as long in some races as others but I didn't really pay attention to which. Fuel seemed to always go at the same rate so maybe not. Sports Hards didn't seem to last as long as Race Hards either which was surprising, but again it was different races and cars. Race Hards didn't wear at all when it was wet, and even with a dry track most of the time they were only worn down to 7 or 8 at worst when I pitted with them(if I even needed to pit).

The Wet tires being usless thing is clearly something they've done by design as it is part of the low grip reduction setting they always use for career races. It was the same way in GT5. Use wets if you want more challenge or to be "fair," stay on drys if you want it to be a little easier or to not look like a moron pitting every lap. Of course since the GT6 "enduros" are just silly 15-30 minute sprints with rapidly changing weather, the track almost never stays wet long enough for taking extra pit stops to make any sense at all.

Maybe if we're lucky they'll add proper options to Arcade races like they did in GT5 and we can run something that resembles proper enduros there where the AI is a bit better anyway.

The AI starts on a variety of tires in those races, by the way. Some are on all three compounds usually, and I almost think I saw one that started on Intermediates.

What I found odd was that I seemed to always start gaining lots of time on all of them the instant it began raining, no matter the condition of the track.
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I agree, the 24 minute races are pretty pointless - u still remember doing the Suzuka 9hr in GT5 and you just don't get that satisfaction on completion in GT6.

Also, I'm only speculating about the plethora of tyres used by the A.I. I think I'm trying to convince myself about the tyres as the A.I are plain terrible in the wet
 
That's the first thing I noticed when I played the 24 minutes races. It seemed odd that dry condition tires, especially RS tires had better grip in wet conditions than Intermidiate/wet tires.
 
LightningLord
So buying Intermediate/Wet tires for my Zonda was pointless then?
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If you were hoping that they would give you better grip in the rain, then yes. For some reason, while driving in the rain, Racing Soft tires actually provide better grip than the Intermediate/Wet tires. So strange.

Morgoth_666
Maybe if we're lucky they'll add proper options to Arcade races like they did in GT5 and we can run something that resembles proper enduros there where the AI is a bit better anyway.
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What differences were there in Arcade races in GT5?
 
It has been that way in previous GT games as well. I remember running that Tsukuba wet race in GT4 using softs and the grip was good, of course there were no wet tires in GT4. GT5 also the softs worked better than the wets.

It seems like when the road is totally wet that the tires do not wear at all.

Would be nice if they fixed it to where you actually need wet tires on a wet track. IRL a slick no matter how soft the compound would not do well on even a tiny amount of standing water. Would be some serious hydroplaning going on there.
 
i didn't do the 24h/min race since i won them
but from what i remmeber, it's wet, yes , but not at the point that you need wet tires
for online lobbies with real surface grip we did test and you cannot drive with slick tires above 65% of wet
above 25% it's better to put int rain tires and above 75% full wet rain tires
i only speak about slick tires, if you use sport or comfort tires, it's an other story
 
Le_Manuz
i didn't do the 24h/min race since i won them
but from what i remmeber, it's wet, yes , but not at the point that you need wet tires
for online lobbies with real surface grip we did test and you cannot drive with slick tires above 65% of wet
above 25% it's better to put int rain tires and above 75% full wet rain tires
i only speak about slick tires, if you use sport or comfort tires, it's an other story
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That is very informative. Thanks for sharing your research. I had wondered about that; does the length of time/intensity of rain eventually have an effect on using slicks, like Racing Soft, versus the Intermediate or Wet tire. Thank you!
 
the % of wetness shown on the hud is informative but can make you think wrongly
from what i understood,
it's the % of wetness of the best driving line (the one you use when the track is dry) on the portion of the track you are on
maybe at the level of your car or for the next 100m, there is nothing to really know that
if you follow the rule that
in between 25% and 60% you can still drive (with care) on racing soft
in between 50% adn 75% on Rain Int
above 70 % on Full Rain
it will be fine

yes i have overlapping rules ;) i depends of your car, temperature and track surface grip

but as i said you can missjudge the wetness as rain goes more intensive or tracks dries up
because it's the % of wetness of the best dry driving line
let's case that the tracks is drying, if you're not on the best line, even at 0% , you will see water spray behind the car
same if it starts to rain, on the best line you see no water spray at 0%, move a bit left or right and you can see some starting to appear

that's also where it become dull, on some track you don't even notice that the surface is covered by water
that system makes you use the best "dry" driving line on wet surface, something that real racers will laugh loud about
even if every one drive on the left side and the best dry driving line is on the right, it will not starts to dry on the left but on the right ..

GT is not the real rain simulator at all :lol:
 
Just to clear up some confusion, because the same issue happens in GT5 and it absolutely grinds my gears when people say PD can't simulate wet road right. The problem is because they're catering to the casual gamer by forcing Grip Reduction to LOW (just like forcing SRF ON in TTs and Licences).

In career mode Grip Reduction is set to LOW. This means that rain DOES NOT reduce the road grip as much as it should, even at 100% wetness. It's closer to a dry road grip than wet road. Since racing softs have more grip than rain tires on dry road, racing softs are faster. Normal racing lines are also faster.

In arcade mode you can select Grip Reduction. When you set it to REAL, the rain DOES reduce road grip progressively from 0-100%. Racing softs are still faster up to a point, then inters come to their own, then full wets near 100%. Normal racing lines become slippier and you do go faster using wet lines.

I'd urge you all who don't believe me to try it out in arcade mode. Get a car you're familiar with on a familiar track (high HP cars illustrate the difference best). Run 100% wetness with low grip reduction, first with slicks then rain tyres. Then put grip reduction to real and run with slicks. I bet you couldn't even keep the car going straight.

Someone already did an experiment to prove it https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/a-graph-of-tire-grip-on-different-surfaces.305454/

I cannot comment on the difference in degradation rate. I did my enduros just post launch and I remember the tyre deg was pretty wonky back then. I haven't tried it with recent updates so if someone else can chip in it would be appreciated.
 
LeGeNd-1
Just to clear up some confusion, because the same issue happens in GT5 and it absolutely grinds my gears when people say PD can't simulate wet road right. The problem is because they're catering to the casual gamer by forcing Grip Reduction to LOW (just like forcing SRF ON in TTs and Licences).

In career mode Grip Reduction is set to LOW. This means that rain DOES NOT reduce the road grip as much as it should, even at 100% wetness. It's closer to a dry road grip than wet road. Since racing softs have more grip than rain tires on dry road, racing softs are faster. Normal racing lines are also faster.

In arcade mode you can select Grip Reduction. When you set it to REAL, the rain DOES reduce road grip progressively from 0-100%. Racing softs are still faster up to a point, then inters come to their own, then full wets near 100%. Normal racing lines become slippier and you do go faster using wet lines.

I'd urge you all who don't believe me to try it out in arcade mode. Get a car you're familiar with on a familiar track (high HP cars illustrate the difference best). Run 100% wetness with low grip reduction, first with slicks then rain tyres. Then put grip reduction to real and run with slicks. I bet you couldn't even keep the car going straight.

Someone already did an experiment to prove it https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/a-graph-of-tire-grip-on-different-surfaces.305454/

I cannot comment on the difference in degradation rate. I did my enduros just post launch and I remember the tyre deg was pretty wonky back then. I haven't tried it with recent updates so if someone else can chip in it would be appreciated.
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Well said :)
 
ALB123
...

What differences were there in Arcade races in GT5?
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I was actually referring to the fact that in one of the updates they added more options to arcade races to help us customize them the way we wanted -- although we never did get to use the weaker slipstream options. GT6 is in serious need of such an update.

As it stands you still cannot enable fuel and tire usage in GT6 Arcade mode which rather limits its value. And of course the awful GT6 rubberbanding is still present in that mode, although it seems to work a bit differently than in Career mode. Adding the option to run races to a time limit would be nice as well... we couldn't do that in GT5 either.

Le_Manuz
the % of wetness shown on the hud is informative but can make you think wrongly
from what i understood,
it's the % of wetness of the best driving line (the one you use when the track is dry) on the portion of the track you are on
maybe at the level of your car or for the next 100m, there is nothing to really know that
if you follow the rule that
in between 25% and 60% you can still drive (with care) on racing soft
in between 50% adn 75% on Rain Int
above 70 % on Full Rain
it will be fine

yes i have overlapping rules ;) i depends of your car, temperature and track surface grip

but as i said you can missjudge the wetness as rain goes more intensive or tracks dries up
because it's the % of wetness of the best dry driving line
let's case that the tracks is drying, if you're not on the best line, even at 0% , you will see water spray behind the car
same if it starts to rain, on the best line you see no water spray at 0%, move a bit left or right and you can see some starting to appear

that's also where it become dull, on some track you don't even notice that the surface is covered by water
that system makes you use the best "dry" driving line on wet surface, something that real racers will laugh loud about
even if every one drive on the left side and the best dry driving line is on the right, it will not starts to dry on the left but on the right ..

GT is not the real rain simulator at all :lol:
Click to expand...

You are right, it is showing the condition of the driving line itself which is something that GT6 actually does fairly well. Even with low grip reduction you can clearly notice the difference between driving on the dry part and on the wet part of the road. It is of course much more pronounced with real grip reduction. While the road does fail to look shiny and wet, you can pretty clearly tell which part is the dry line and it does look different than both the way it looks when fully dry and the way it looks when fully wet. You just have to remember that the funny-colored part of the road is wet lol. They have a lot of issues to improve with how this all works, but it does at least do a number of things right.

I'm not sure we can really expect PD to dynamically calculate which part of the road is getting the most use(although with the bots it would usually be the standard driving line anyway) and then have that part dry faster than the rest. That's pretty advanced stuff, right along with(if not more so than) figuring in what parts of track receive the most sun or have bumps that create puddles or have better drainage or have off-track water coming on to the track or where water flows into rivers across the track.

It might be plausible to create an intermediate drying line based upon where they think people would drive in the wet but I'm still not sure they would be willing to go that far(or if they'd put it in the right spot). And of course they'd also have to teach the AI to shift to that line as well. They haven't even bothered to fix the normal line the AI takes between Flugplatz and Schwedenkreuz at the Nürburgring yet, or even to fix the silly line they take through the sweeper after the hairpin on Apricot Hill, an error that remains from the PS2 versions of a track that wasn't even in GT5. So I wouldn't expect them to want to go that far anytime soon.
 
Gran turismo is about beautiful cars/tracks/graphics, and not about beautiful racing.
Winning on heavy rain on slicks WTF??
 
LeGeNd-1
Just to clear up some confusion, because the same issue happens in GT5 and it absolutely grinds my gears when people say PD can't simulate wet road right. The problem is because they're catering to the casual gamer by forcing Grip Reduction to LOW (just like forcing SRF ON in TTs and Licences).

In career mode Grip Reduction is set to LOW. This means that rain DOES NOT reduce the road grip as much as it should, even at 100% wetness. It's closer to a dry road grip than wet road. Since racing softs have more grip than rain tires on dry road, racing softs are faster. Normal racing lines are also faster.

In arcade mode you can select Grip Reduction. When you set it to REAL, the rain DOES reduce road grip progressively from 0-100%. Racing softs are still faster up to a point, then inters come to their own, then full wets near 100%. Normal racing lines become slippier and you do go faster using wet lines.

I'd urge you all who don't believe me to try it out in arcade mode. Get a car you're familiar with on a familiar track (high HP cars illustrate the difference best). Run 100% wetness with low grip reduction, first with slicks then rain tyres. Then put grip reduction to real and run with slicks. I bet you couldn't even keep the car going straight.

Someone already did an experiment to prove it https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/a-graph-of-tire-grip-on-different-surfaces.305454/

I cannot comment on the difference in degradation rate. I did my enduros just post launch and I remember the tyre deg was pretty wonky back then. I haven't tried it with recent updates so if someone else can chip in it would be appreciated.
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I found this huge difference when I did an online race in the wet. The Racing softs were only good from 0% to around 20%. Once it reached 30% and up, the softs were completely useless. I remember this because I barely got away with staying on Softs when the rain came (while everyone else pitted for wet tires) and only on the last lap in the final few corners did conditions reach 30% and suddenly, I had to crawl to the finish line.
 
alex1369
Gran turismo is about beautiful cars/tracks/graphics, and not about beautiful racing.
Winning on heavy rain on slicks WTF??
Click to expand...
As LeGeNd-1 said literally two posts before yours, it's because grip reduction is set to "Low" in career mode. You go into arcade, set the track and weather to fully wet and grip reduction to "Real" or whatever and then report back. I'd be gobsmacked if you could run competitively on slick tyres with the settings like that (that's not intended as a slur against your driving skill; merely saying that with proper grip reduction, driving in the wet becomes a thousand times trickier.)
 
I'm astounded about how much people that look for realism are still unknown of the Grip Reduction settings in the game, these were available since GT5...
 
ALB123
What differences were there in Arcade races in GT5?
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You could choose fuel and tire consumption and you could slightly manipulate the game so it gave you the A.I cars you wanted.

GT5's Arcade is what kept the game alive for me. They killed it in GT6 and since I don't play online, it's really hard for me to find reasons to play anymore.
 
HuskyGT
You could choose fuel and tire consumption and you could slightly manipulate the game so it gave you the A.I cars you wanted.

GT5's Arcade is what kept the game alive for me. They killed it in GT6 and since I don't play online, it's really hard for me to find reasons to play anymore.
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Are you kidding me?! That's exactly what I want to be able to do. Why would they get rid of that ability? You should be able to turn on tire wear and fuel consumption even in Time Trial practice mode. Why the heck would they axe that option? Foolish!
 
HuskyGT
You could choose fuel and tire consumption and you could slightly manipulate the game so it gave you the A.I cars you wanted.

GT5's Arcade is what kept the game alive for me. They killed it in GT6 and since I don't play online, it's really hard for me to find reasons to play anymore.
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I agree. GT6's Arcade is still much better than the career races, it's just not quite enough better to keep me playing the way GT5's was. Same thing for GT6's "endurance" races vs GT5's endurance races.

Why they had to make Arcade worse by removing options and adding rubber-band AI instead of just making the couple tweaks to improve it that people were begging for is just PD logic as usual. Like removing shuffle racing from online.
 
ALB123
Are you kidding me?! That's exactly what I want to be able to do. Why would they get rid of that ability? You should be able to turn on tire wear and fuel consumption even in Time Trial practice mode. Why the heck would they axe that option? Foolish!
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Morgoth_666
I agree. GT6's Arcade is still much better than the career races, it's just not quite enough better to keep me playing the way GT5's was. Same thing for GT6's "endurance" races vs GT5's endurance races.

Why they had to make Arcade worse by removing options and adding rubber-band AI instead of just making the couple tweaks to improve it that people were begging for is just PD logic as usual. Like removing shuffle racing from online.
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Yesterday I had a blast racing at the Nurburgring in a Ferrari GTO. 5 laps, time and weather on. The A.I was being very aggressive and it even avoided braking on corners like they usually do. It was me an a Gallardo stuck just hundreds of a second from each other through almost the entire race, exchanging position almost in every corner... It's the most fun I've had. Then I remember it could've been much more fun if the game had tire/fuel consumption like it did in GT5.

So yeah, who knows why they took it away. Probably to push people to play online. It's PD's loss though since that's not going to force me to go online; that's going to force me to play the game even less.
 
HuskyGT
Yesterday I had a blast racing at the Nurburgring in a Ferrari GTO. 5 laps, time and weather on. The A.I was being very aggressive and it even avoided braking on corners like they usually do. It was me an a Gallardo stuck just hundreds of a second from each other through almost the entire race, exchanging position almost in every corner... It's the most fun I've had. Then I remember it could've been much more fun if the game had tire/fuel consumption like it did in GT5.

So yeah, who knows why they took it away. Probably to push people to play online. It's PD's loss though since that's not going to force me to go online; that's going to force me to play the game even less.
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Online can be really fun when you find the right rooms. I frequenlty had a great time in GT5 and rarely got stuck in the crashfest rooms people complain about. I am a little bit more tolerant of what seem to be honest mistakes than most people are, but generally I didn't find more than maybe 1 out of 10 people to be real problems and they usually don't last long. However, it can sometimes be tough to find the right room for your style, particularly if your style isn't "ZOMG FAST CARS SOFT TIRES." I haven't played GT6 online much but it seemed improved in a lot of ways despite a couple issues and I've had fun when I have... if I can find a good room. My biggest problem is that I don't have many tuned cars and stock cars don't compete well.

But for just playing offline... GT5 wasn't too great(all I enjoyed were the arcades and enduros and hotlapping) and GT6 has even less fun to be had(same stuff but less enjoyable). I'm not sure why PD is having so much trouble injecting fun into the series, but GT's always been a bit of a mixed bag.
 
Morgoth_666
Online can be really fun when you find the right rooms. I frequenlty had a great time in GT5 and rarely got stuck in the crashfest rooms people complain about. I am a little bit more tolerant of what seem to be honest mistakes than most people are, but generally I didn't find more than maybe 1 out of 10 people to be real problems and they usually don't last long. However, it can sometimes be tough to find the right room for your style, particularly if your style isn't "ZOMG FAST CARS SOFT TIRES." I haven't played GT6 online much but it seemed improved in a lot of ways despite a couple issues and I've had fun when I have... if I can find a good room. My biggest problem is that I don't have many tuned cars and stock cars don't compete well.

But for just playing offline... GT5 wasn't too great(all I enjoyed were the arcades and enduros and hotlapping) and GT6 has even less fun to be had(same stuff but less enjoyable). I'm not sure why PD is having so much trouble injecting fun into the series, but GT's always been a bit of a mixed bag.
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I avoid online because although there are rooms were people actually play for real, clean and fun, it's really hard to find them. I remember in the GT5 days, I only found these rooms a couple of times and most of the time it took me almost half an hour to find them. It was certainly easier in GT5 though thanks to shuffle races, which PD thought it was a good idea to eliminate from GT6. I'm one of those who don't really play that much, so I rather just enjoy my hour of gaming doing something else.
 

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