Rally Comparison - WRC 5 vs SLRE vs DiRT Rally

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Scaff

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So we have GTS just around the corner and the news that it will include rally sections will almost certainly increase interest in the discipline. Some may start to look at titles that focus just on the rally itself.

As such I wanted to take a look at the three standalone titles that are currently out, as while most in this sub-forum may already know them well, others may be in need of some assistance and some may just want to take a look at the three side by side.

So we have WRC5, the only one of the three to carry the WRC licence; Seb Loeb Rally Evo developed in conjunction with the multiple WRC champion and DiRT Rally from the studio that brought the Rally stage to the wider gaming audience with the Colin McRae series.

To assist with the comparison I have put the following video together, which shows both in-car and replay footage from all three, the car used was the WRC Fiesta and Rally Wales used for the example gravel stage.


So how do they feel behind the wheel?

WRC5
Offers all the events from the 2015 season and teams and cars from the J-WRC, WRC2 and WRC classes. As far as Wales goes the stage itself looks good, however the actually resemblance to the real stage would require a huge amount of generosity to be described as even close. A situation which is not helped by a co-driver who seems incapable of completing a sentence without putting odd (and very loud) emphasis on random words.

Things soon however get far worse as soon as you actually drive the damn thing. The physics with a wheel are a mess, with feedback adjustable between far, far to mild to clipping like a manic (to the degree I feared for my wheel). Its difficult to build up any kind of flow with the car and it randomly seems to alternate between feeling like you are steering through syrup to then being overly twitchy!

Oh and it kept changing down an extra gear for me, which was not helpful when I changed from second to first and it goes 'nah you need to be in neutral for this corner'.

So overall it looks OK, its got all the official events and cars, but with a wheel it's simply rubbish, feeling like wheel set-up was tacked on just to say it had it.


Seb Loeb Rally Evo

OK so lets get the obvious out of the way. This is not a good looking title at all, not even close, in fact it looks bloody awful for a PS4 title. Its easy to see why so many people would dismiss it given the was it looks, I mean if the game looks that bad they can't have put any effort into it at all.

Not the case at all, the range of cars and stages are excellent and while ugly the stages are well mapped using GPS data and good and narrow (the car models however do contain quite a few iffy issues). In short the stages are a joy and the Hafren stage in the video is a serious challenge, but one that you can get into a good flow with.

It also has a massive single player mode, with two career modes (one of which allows you to recreate the events of Loeb's career) as well as the normal Single Stage, Championship and Time Trial mode. It also (along with DiRT) has Rallycross and Hill Climb events.

Behind the wheel is has truly excellent physics and feedback that is arguably the best of the three titles as well as comfortably the best damage model of the three. One highlight of the physics on gravel is how the car reacts to changes in surface and ruts, etc.

In summary is a hideous looking title that play excellently, has a huge amount to do and a great car list, and will never get any future love and attention as its developed by Milestone (who have a great track record of almost never updating titles post release for more than five minutes).


DiRT Rally

In total contrast to SLRE this is a stunning looking title, both in-car and in replay. The car models and stages are excellently designed, close to the real thing and good and long (SLRE stages are not quite as long - but its close). However it is the title with both the fewest events and stages of the three.

The range of cars is nice and varied and spans a wide range of classes and decades, with some classics as expected. Its not however as comprehensive as SLRE's car list.

Career mode is limited to say the least, but it does have an AI that once you reach the 'Elite' level will pose a serious challenge to beat, and the Daily, Weekly, Monthly and Special 'Challenges' that Codemasters push out to challenge players do help to bolster it. These also introduce the 'hardcore' approach of DiRT at its most extreme. While in career you don't have a rewind option, as both WRC5 and SLRE do, you can restart the stage up to five times (with a penalty on the amount you win for your final finish position). In these 'Challenges' you don't even get the restart option, if you mess up you live with it!

Now that is slightly tempered by the damage model, which if I am honest doesn't punish you as much as it could by a long way, and certainly not as much as SLRE does. With most of the damage being a visual effect rather than having any serious impact on car performance on a stage, and you have to effectively forget to repair between stages for its impact to make any serious difference (and it even reminds you to repair the car). The most you will have to realistically deal with is punctures and the loss of a tyre, and at times you may not even notice you have a flat until your co-driver tells you.

Physics wise it is excellent, with great feedback that allows you to build a relationship with the car and get a great 'flow' going in stages, all the while allowing you to focus on what the car is doing under you.


The Winner (sort of)?

So which one 'wins'? Well the one to throw in the bin is easy, WRC 5 simply isn't a good game and its a waste of the official licence. Note that I'm not dismissing it because its 'arcade', nothing wrong with a good arcade rally title (hi Sega Rally), its simply not a good title at all.

Now it gets tricky, as if you judge it on looks alone then DiRT rally would walk it. However once you take into account the larger career mode, greater number of events, larger car list and better damage model SLRE starts to show that looks alone are not everything.

Physics wise its a hard call to make between the two, and I personally prefer the FFB you get from SLRE and you will not go wrong on gravel with the physics model of either title.

If you have to pick one then it very much depends on how 'ugly' you are willing to go, and I can fully understand people who go for DiRT's 60fps loveliness, particularly as a title to show off exactly what can be done visually with a rally title. Doing so however would result in you missing out on what is a real diamond in the rough in SLRE, which once you push past the looks is a varied title with great physics and FFB.

Personally if you can I would strongly recommend getting both, I just know which one you will hide when your friends come around.

Gear Used: Playseat Challenge, Thrustmaster T150, T8SA (used for handbrake), TP3A. No driver aids were used and manual gears only.
 
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1,396
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Excellent synopsis. I haven't played WRC5 and wouldn't unless it's on sale for $5.

SLRE is a great game. Your points are true and valid. I deleted it after the platinum because it has no lasting value, which for me is online. The one-stage ghosting with one or two other players (if you can find them) just doesn't cut it for me. But it is a great title and I enjoyed it.

DiRT Rally always has me coming back for more. In addition to the challenging trophy list, I spend even more time in leagues. It's just a blast. It's so challenging and time-consuming that I haven't done a Daily, Weekly or Monthly since May!

I never liked rally in GT games. I'm actually disappointed that they are still wasting time with it.

BTW I use a G29 with shifter.
 
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Scaff

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New comparison video completed.

This one looks at the tighter gravel stages, so in the case of WRC5 and SLRE I have used Mexico and for DiRT I have used Greece.


As with the video in the opening post I have used the same rig, no driver aids and manual gears. All runs are 'first try' as well, so errors and mistakes are as they happened, as I didn't want to 'engineer' better runs for any title.
 
938
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For some of the classes, there is very clearly one best car, and if you don't use that car you basically have to turn the AI down considerably to win. For example, in the 70's class, on a long ~10km stage, there is probably a good 30s difference between the BMW 2002 and the Mini Cooper. For things like that, they probably should have split the classes up further. But at least in the 70's class, the BMW and the Lancia are pretty close. In Class 4, the Stratos is clearly the single best car by a wide margin. I usually play on Hard AI, and am occasionally competitive on Realistic, but if I play Class 4 rallies and don't want to use the Stratos, I basically have to turn it down to Easy. There is also a weird instance where the '99 Focus Rally Car is in a different class than the '99 Lancer Evolution 6 Rally Car, even though they directly competed against each other in the same year.

Agree with some, not agree with others. Stratos, Why do you think it won 3 consecutive times the WRC? All class 4 cars were, as it should be, in group 4.

About the rally stages, real ones are just like that. And Mexico is madness, as it is in real life. SLRE doesnt redesigned almost non a single piece of the stages: they are scaned by GPS. And I personally love it. When you finally finish the stage, after a lot of time wrestling with the car... that sensation is superb.


Almost forget. Force feedback in WRC demo is totally corrupted. Imposible to play, maybe BigBen Studios doesnt know the meaning of counterstearing.
 
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1,118
Canada
Vancouver, BC
Awong124
Agree with some, not agree with others. Stratos, Why do you think it won 3 consecutive times the WRC? All class 4 cars were, as it should be, in group 4.

About the rally stages, real ones are just like that. And Mexico is madness, as it is in real life. SLRE doesnt redesigned almost non a single piece of the stages: they are scaned by GPS. And I personally love it. When you finally finish the stage, after a lot of time wrestling with the car... that sensation is superb.

The classes were as such in real life, and the Stratos won those championships by a huge margin. My point is that unless you want to turn down the difficulty, there is no real point in using any of the other cars. You can't really progress in the game without winning, so you kind of have to win. I'm not saying the game is unrealistic in this regard, just that it doesn't really serve a purpose as such in the game. Like in the 70's class, there's really no point using the Mini when it easily gives up 15-30s per stage (depending on length) to the Lancia and BMW. If you like driving the uncompetitive cars, then you might as well just do time trials in them. Then there's the weird ocurrance of putting two cars that were in the same class in real life into two different classes in the game.

As for the stages, like I said, they could be realistic for all I know. I don't watch rallying very much anymore. To each their own I suppose. I find that one Mexico stage to be annoying more than enjoyable personally. But then again, I also hate the Nordschleife. I'd rather lap Nurburgring GP any day.

Also odd that you quoted my post from another thread. Why not just reply in that thread?
 
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@Scaff Awesome review. Congrats

Then there's the weird ocurrance of putting two cars that were in the same class in real life into two different classes in the game.

As for the stages, like I said, they could be realistic for all I know. I don't watch rallying very much anymore. To each their own I suppose. I find that one Mexico stage to be annoying more than enjoyable personally. But then again, I also hate the Nordschleife. I'd rather lap Nurburgring GP any day.

Also odd that you quoted my post from another thread. Why not just reply in that thread?

Agree with that.

Well, yes, they are difficult as hell. And sometimes frustrating. But when you stay cold and dont try to win the stage at first or first 10 attempts, trying just to enjoy the stage and to finish it without restarting; then you begin to enjoying that stage and becoming faster. And when the things are going well, not when you finish, but when you feel the stage is going well (and maybe you need another 3 4 5 attempts to really finish) at that time it is when the game reach its peak of awesomeness.

Here is a gameplay of mine with the 205 T15 and Ouninpohja, one of the most difficult cars and one of the most difficult stages. I began the attempt for the stage wrestling a lot with the car and when I understood I have to be not incredible fast (and crashing a lot) but reasonably fast and very consistent, the things began to flow. I find fascinating that sensation of doing something very difficult but also very enjoyble. Dirt Rally has that too in a lower level (my opinion).


I thought would be better to discuss that in this thread.
 

Scaff

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Monte Comparison is now up....




I've moved the following conversation here as its a better place to discuss WRC5 vs. SLRE (and we can add in DiRT as well).
I'd be more inclined to agree with you if the cars didn't also do that on dry tarmac, with or without brake assist on, and with brake bias cranked to the front. Cars don't do that with ABS off in PCARS, and I'm going to assume that PCARS physics is more realistic.

I actually don't think either game feels particularly good, honestly. Though, I've never driven fast in a rally type environment in real life before I can't really compare. I've only driven fast on circuits. These games could be very realistic for all I know. I know that the cars don't feel at all realistic on tarmac though.
Tarmac public roads and tarmac tracks are total and utter different environments, to try and compare the two misses those differences.

The grade of tarmac used on public roads is utterly different, using a much larger grade of 'chip' in the tarmac, which is cheaper to build and maintain, reduces the amount of standing water you get, is a lot more abrasive to tyres (without providing more grip) and suffers from weathering more dramatically and a lot faster (more surface holes for water to get in, freeze, expand and crack).

The profile of public roads is also totally different being as they are heavily crowned and cambered to encourage water run-off and to ensure you are more likely should you loose control or fall asleep to leave the road than cross the centre line.

Then we have the issues with the weathering and the patchwork of repairs that occur over time, providing a constant change of grip levels and imperfections that will constantly change the level of grip that each tyre has.

Add to that public roads do not 'rubber in' as a dedicated race track will, corners and braking zones on a rally stage do not get the constant laying down of rubber at each pass, some may only get one pass by each car (and the tyres are a lot harder on a rally car than a race car, as the surface is far more abrasive). As such the levels of grip are much lower and varied on a public tarmac road than on a track.

You are quite literally comparing apples to oranges here.

It does happen on dry tarmac roads, it just happens a lot less (as a wet or icy surface will exaggerate the issue). I've experienced it many times on closed 'B' roads at MIRA and the TRL in the UK and on tarmac farm roads in my youth (which was nearly the end of an old Escort of mine).

It's why guides to the 'ring have sections marked out with 'do not brake here' and public roads have enough imperfections that you don't always need to be braking for them to throw the car off balance which is why Mark Higgins nearly lost the car on the Isle of Man back in 2011 at Bray Hill.


As far as WRC5 goes, even the developers were quite clear when it came out that they were not making a sim, but rather they wanted to create a feel of the WRC that was accessible to everyone.


It's definitely better than WRC 5. Pace notes in WRC 5 are downright terrible.
On that we agree.


It's kind of like, what is the point in having classes when cars within classes aren't competitive with each other? I do like the variety of cars, just that the grouping of them could have been more competitive in some cases.
Its a trick one, as has been said these cars did compete in the same classes and as such they should go together. Some of it will be down to what you want out of the title, if its to always win then yes it's not ideal. If however its for the driving then the groups don't really make that much difference.



I didn't say I liked the stages in WRC 5 more. I just said I didn't like some stages in SLRE and think they're kind of ridiculous.
No more ridiculous than they are in reality.

As I said before rally events are not all about fast flowing events, but also about tight, technical, car breakers as well. If you dislike Mexico in SLRE you would utterly hate Greece in DiRT.

Personally I love both types, the tight technical stuff poses its own challenge and in many ways are harder than the faster events as the margin for error is much tighter and with the slower average stage times maintaining consistency is more important.


Are they really GPS recreations of entire stages? They seem too short for that. Do they just use a section of each stage?
They are GPS recreations of actual stages, I didn't say they were the full stages. Now in some cases they are, as rally stages do start from around the 7km mark. However if you take el Chocolate, that was run over 54 km this year, so its only going to be part of the full stage.

I don't really watch much rallying anymore. I just know that I find the Chocolate stage to be horrendous. I can't seem to find many decent videos of it on youtube for some reason. The only thing I found was this, and I'm not even sure if it's the same stage. It's tight and twisty, but he doesn't seem to be going over a crest or jump every 20m.

Totally different stage you have posted.

El Chocolate is full of blind jumps and crests and also has sections that are worse for it that the stage section they selected for SLRE (and much longer sections along the top of the narrow ridges).

On-boards for the stage are thin on the ground on you-tube, but plenty can be found at WRC.com, they are unfortunately behind the WRC+ paywall.

The trick with stages like this (be they in Mexico or in Greece) is to understand that not every crest or jump needs to be taken as a crest or jump flat out in the way you would a fast rally like Finland or Sweden.
 
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1,118
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Awong124
No more ridiculous than they are in reality.

As I said before rally events are not all about fast flowing events, but also about tight, technical, car breakers as well. If you dislike Mexico in SLRE you would utterly hate Greece in DiRT.

Personally I love both types, the tight technical stuff poses its own challenge and in many ways are harder than the faster events as the margin for error is much tighter and with the slower average stage times maintaining consistency is more important.



They are GPS recreations of actual stages, I didn't say they were the full stages. Now in some cases they are, as rally stages do start from around the 7km mark. However if you take el Chocolate, that was run over 54 km this year, so its only going to be part of the full stage.


Totally different stage you have posted.

El Chocolate is full of blind jumps and crests and also has sections that are worse for it that the stage section they selected for SLRE (and much longer sections along the top of the narrow ridges).

On-boards for the stage are thin on the ground on you-tube, but plenty can be found at WRC.com, they are unfortunately behind the WRC+ paywall.

The trick with stages like this (be they in Mexico or in Greece) is to understand that not every crest or jump needs to be taken as a crest or jump flat out in the way you would a fast rally like Finland or Sweden.

I don't actually have a problem with stages being tight and twisty, as I might have given the impression before. It's the tracks being tight and twisty, and having crests and jumps almost continuously that makes it annoying. That coupled with the physics model that I don't think has enough weight on the cars that makes them airborne at the most modest of speeds just compounds the issue. I have gotten air in the game going over a crest at 50 km/h. In real life, there is no way you'd be catching any sort of air at 50km/h unless you're pretty much driving off a cliff. The stage may be realistic, but to me not enjoyable. And that's fair enough. I don't expect to enjoy everything in any given game.

I am now on a mobile device, so it makes quoting difficult, so I'm not gonna bother with adding in more quotes. I understand what you're saying with the tarmac being public roads, and I agree to a certain extent. But Pikes Peak in real life should be a relatively smooth surface. I'm not even sure if the road is even a road open to public when they are not having events. Sure it may not rubber in, but it should be a good quality consistent surface. Don't forget, PCARS also has stages on supposed public roads. And Monaco in F1 is a public road. So I think the issues I mentioned I'm pretty sure are issues with their handling model. You are probably correct that those kinds of handling characteristics happen in real life, but I'm convinced that they are at the very least exaggerated in the game. That's actually what I kind of tended to notice with the physics and handling model of this game. Everything seems like an exaggerated version of real physics.

And that video you posted of Mark Higgins says that was at 150 mph. In SLRE the cars barely get above 150 km/h most of the time and they do things like that. Which goes back to what I said about things in SLRE being somewhat exaggerated.

I also noticed that the co-driver in your videos is different than mine, even though they both speak English, but they have different accents. That's a nice touch.


@Scaff Awesome review. Congrats



Agree with that.

Well, yes, they are difficult as hell. And sometimes frustrating. But when you stay cold and dont try to win the stage at first or first 10 attempts, trying just to enjoy the stage and to finish it without restarting; then you begin to enjoying that stage and becoming faster. And when the things are going well, not when you finish, but when you feel the stage is going well (and maybe you need another 3 4 5 attempts to really finish) at that time it is when the game reach its peak of awesomeness.

Here is a gameplay of mine with the 205 T15 and Ouninpohja, one of the most difficult cars and one of the most difficult stages. I began the attempt for the stage wrestling a lot with the car and when I understood I have to be not incredible fast (and crashing a lot) but reasonably fast and very consistent, the things began to flow. I find fascinating that sensation of doing something very difficult but also very enjoyble. Dirt Rally has that too in a lower level (my opinion).


I thought would be better to discuss that in this thread.

I have come to the understanding that you don't have to drive it particularly hard to be fast. Like in the Chocolate stage, I drive like a granny as I mentioned before and by the end of the first sector I'd be something like 8 seconds ahead in Hard AI. So I know that sometimes slow is actually fast. But I must say I don't get that feeling of accomplishment you describe at the end though. It's more like, I got that over with. I get the feeling of enjoyment after completing stages like Bellingen Australia, or San Romolo in San Remo.

I just did Los Mexicanos in a Ford RS200 and it was fantastic. That kind of stage is pretty much my definition of what rallying is about.
 
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938
Spain
Spain
I have come to the understanding that you don't have to drive it particularly hard to be fast. Like in the Chocolate stage, I drive like a granny as I mentioned before and by the end of the first sector I'd be something like 8 seconds ahead in Hard AI. So I know that sometimes slow is actually fast. But I must say I don't get that feeling of accomplishment you describe at the end though. It's more like, I got that over with. I get the feeling of enjoyment after completing stages like Bellingen Australia, or San Romolo in San Remo.

I just did Los Mexicanos in a Ford RS200 and it was fantastic. That kind of stage is pretty much my definition of what rallying is about.

Yes sometimes they are frustrating but... I dont know, i like that every single metre is challenging. Some stages are more enjoyble than others. That happens with cars too. But for me, even the most difficult and frustrating combinations, are fantastic. Because at the end you will learn a lot, that is satifying. I will not negate that there is a bit of "get over it already"... but I just think it isnt the reigning feeling at all (for my).

If i have to tell the most hardcore stages and cars would be Group B, Stratos, GT86 and BMW 2002 (there are many cars i havent driven). The stages would be Torsby, Ouninpuoja, El chocolate, Valle de munster and Paso del Maro.

The most enjoyble (not the easiest)? R5 cars, FWD cars and WRC (group A, old WRC and modern) cars. The stages i just cant choose. They are all too good.

To compare stages with Dirt, I have too say that even Greece (which is the most difficult by far) doesnt come close to the level os difficulty of the easiest stages in SLRE (Australia for example).
 
1,118
Canada
Vancouver, BC
Awong124
Yes sometimes they are frustrating but... I dont know, i like that every single metre is challenging. Some stages are more enjoyble than others. That happens with cars too. But for me, even the most difficult and frustrating combinations, are fantastic. Because at the end you will learn a lot, that is satifying. I will not negate that there is a bit of "get over it already"... but I just think it isnt the reigning feeling at all (for my).

If i have to tell the most hardcore stages and cars would be Group B, Stratos, GT86 and BMW 2002 (there are many cars i havent driven). The stages would be Torsby, Ouninpuoja, El chocolate, Valle de munster and Paso del Maro.

The most enjoyble (not the easiest)? R5 cars, FWD cars and WRC (group A, old WRC and modern) cars. The stages i just cant choose. They are all too good.

To compare stages with Dirt, I have too say that even Greece (which is the most difficult by far) doesnt come close to the level os difficulty of the easiest stages in SLRE (Australia for example).

I haven't even gotten to any of the R5 or Modern Rally Cars yet. I have the GT86, but I don't like it. I wanted to like it, since I plan to buy one in the near future in real life, but it's just not that good. It doesn't feel very sharp. I could forgive it not handling that nicely if it was actually quick, but it's even slower than the Saxo Kit Car despite the performance rating suggesting otherwise. The BMW 2002 is the fastest in that class, but I prefer the Fulvia because I think it handles much better and doesn't really give up much in terms of stage times.

I'll get Dirt Rally when I see it on sale. I pretty much never buy games full price anymore. The last game I got full price was PCARS over a year ago. But if the stages in Dirt Rally are less bumpy, then I'll probably like it.
 

Scaff

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New video. Wet tarmac time, with Germany used for WRC5 and DiRT, while Alsace was used for SLRE.


This one really does highlight the issues with WRC 5's physics model, as the car is yawing wildly around a fixed central point right in the middle of the car, while travelling down the road in a direction that is utterly uninfluenced by the wild yawing.

Swedish comparison is on its way and that may be the last for a while as tomorrow will see me start with Assetto Corsa.

Edited to add - Here is the Swedish comparison, and with that I'm off to sleep as its 2am here.


I don't actually have a problem with stages being tight and twisty, as I might have given the impression before. It's the tracks being tight and twisty, and having crests and jumps almost continuously that makes it annoying. That coupled with the physics model that I don't think has enough weight on the cars that makes them airborne at the most modest of speeds just compounds the issue. I have gotten air in the game going over a crest at 50 km/h. In real life, there is no way you'd be catching any sort of air at 50km/h unless you're pretty much driving off a cliff. The stage may be realistic, but to me not enjoyable. And that's fair enough. I don't expect to enjoy everything in any given game.
I've not found what you are claiming about cars taking off over cresets at 50 kmh / 30 mph at all, none of the videos I have posted shows this to be happening either.

In some of the more extreme crests you may get quite a bit of suspension droop and the front wheels just coming off the group, but certainly not a full take off, and not in an unrealistic manner at all.


I am now on a mobile device, so it makes quoting difficult, so I'm not gonna bother with adding in more quotes. I understand what you're saying with the tarmac being public roads, and I agree to a certain extent. But Pikes Peak in real life should be a relatively smooth surface. I'm not even sure if the road is even a road open to public when they are not having events. Sure it may not rubber in, but it should be a good quality consistent surface. Don't forget, PCARS also has stages on supposed public roads. And Monaco in F1 is a public road. So I think the issues I mentioned I'm pretty sure are issues with their handling model. You are probably correct that those kinds of handling characteristics happen in real life, but I'm convinced that they are at the very least exaggerated in the game. That's actually what I kind of tended to notice with the physics and handling model of this game. Everything seems like an exaggerated version of real physics.
Why would Pikes Peak be a relatively smooth surface? Its a public road that is part of a national park and was paved because of the wear to the dirt surface from the amount of traffic on it! Its also due to its location and altitude going to suffer some very harsh weathering.

You also seem to be implying that this is a common occurrence in SLRE and its simply not, in the Alsace video above it doesn't happen once and that's a wet tarmac surface, you have to be locking your brakes up for it too occur and certainly I don't find in overdone or exaggerated at all in comparison to reality.

You also seem to be forgetting why this discussion came up in the first place, and it certainly wasn't because I've claimed that SLRE is the last word in simulation. Rather its your claim that the physics of SLRE were at best a match to WRC 5 and actually may be worse than WRC 5!

Quite frankly I don't see how you can claim that its impossible to find a balance between oversteer and understeer in SLRE, or any of the other issues that you have mentioned while not seeming to find any issue with WRC5. A title that has cars yawing around a fixed central axis while traveling down the road in a direction that is not remotely affected by the yawing motion.

Not a single thing in the videos above supports the assertions that SLRE's physics are worse, or at best a match to WRC 5. It's as if you have desided that WRC 5 has a solid physics engine (despite all evidence to the contrary) and are using that as a benchmark.


And that video you posted of Mark Higgins says that was at 150 mph. In SLRE the cars barely get above 150 km/h most of the time and they do things like that. Which goes back to what I said about things in SLRE being somewhat exaggerated.
As I also pointed out (and you have either missed or ignored) is that was without him braking at all. If a lift can do it at 150 mph then heavy braking that locks the wheels will do it at a lower speed.


I also noticed that the co-driver in your videos is different than mine, even though they both speak English, but they have different accents. That's a nice touch.
It is indeed.
 
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1,118
Canada
Vancouver, BC
Awong124
I've not found what you are claiming about cars taking off over cresets at 50 kmh / 30 mph at all, none of the videos I have posted shows this to be happening either.

In some of the more extreme crests you may get quite a bit of suspension droop and the front wheels just coming off the group, but certainly not a full take off, and not in an unrealistic manner at all.

I actually just experienced that today. I kind of forgot which stage though. It was a pretty large crest, but not one where it should have gotten airborne at that speed. But since I can't remember which stage it was, you can believe me or not.


Why would Pikes Peak be a relatively smooth surface? Its a public road that is part of a national park and was paved because of the wear to the dirt surface from the amount of traffic on it! Its also due to its location and altitude going to suffer some very harsh weathering.

You also seem to be implying that this is a common occurrence in SLRE and its simply not, in the Alsace video above it doesn't happen once and that's a wet tarmac surface, you have to be locking your brakes up for it too occur and certainly I don't find in overdone or exaggerated at all in comparison to reality.

I would assume that it receives less traffic than roads in San Remo, or the streets of Monaco. And it's more noticeable in certain cars. The Abarth 131 is particularly bad, but a lot of the cars do that to some extent or another. And for some odd reason, I notice it happen more on dry tarmac than anywhere else. Such as Pike's Peak, or tarmac sections of rallycross courses.


You also seem to be forgetting why this discussion came up in the first place, and it certainly wasn't because I've claimed that SLRE is the last word in simulation. Rather its your claim that the physics of SLRE were at best a match to WRC 5 and actually may be worse than WRC 5!

Quite frankly I don't see how you can claim that its impossible to find a balance between oversteer and understeer in SLRE, or any of the other issues that you have mentioned while not seeming to find any issue with WRC5. A title that has cars yawing around a fixed central axis while traveling down the road in a direction that is not remotely affected by the yawing motion.

Not a single thing in the videos above supports the assertions that SLRE's physics are worse, or at best a match to WRC 5. It's as if you have desided that WRC 5 has a solid physics engine (despite all evidence to the contrary) and are using that as a benchmark.

I actually think that they're both not particularly good. I only give the edge to WRC 5 because it doesn't seem to exhibit some of the weirdness that I mentioned in SLRE. And the cars seem more weighted down and don't get airborne as easily, but I guess that could also be deceptive due to their stages not having as many crests. I guess it does that weird yaw thing too, but that doesn't bother me as much.


As I also pointed out (and you have either missed or ignored) is that was without him braking at all. If a lift can do it at 150 mph then heavy braking that locks the wheels will do it at a lower speed.

If I have the bias cranked forward, then front wheels should lock first. There's no reason why the car should behave like the handbrake was pulled and the front wheels still have grip. That happened to Higgins when he was lifting due to weight transfer, not anything locking. I can understand the rear coming around under braking when no wheels are locking up, or just the rear locking up, but not when the front wheels should be locking first.
 
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I haven't even gotten to any of the R5 or Modern Rally Cars yet. I have the GT86, but I don't like it. I wanted to like it, since I plan to buy one in the near future in real life, but it's just not that good. It doesn't feel very sharp. I could forgive it not handling that nicely if it was actually quick, but it's even slower than the Saxo Kit Car despite the performance rating suggesting otherwise. The BMW 2002 is the fastest in that class, but I prefer the Fulvia because I think it handles much better and doesn't really give up much in terms of stage times.

I'll get Dirt Rally when I see it on sale. I pretty much never buy games full price anymore. The last game I got full price was PCARS over a year ago. But if the stages in Dirt Rally are less bumpy, then I'll probably like it.

With the GT86 I recomend you (because is what I did) to adjust the car to have less oversteer. It really helps.

Look here Chris Harris driving it. It begins drifting at 10 miles an hour :lol: The car is to much tail happy.


About Dirt Rally, have to say the expierence with wheel in places like Greece or Scotland (the stages are just as dificult as SLRE) is better than in SLRE because in that places the force feedback and the phisics (in asphal dont otherwise) keeps up with SLRE force feedback and the sound and graphics are better.
 

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I actually just experienced that today. I kind of forgot which stage though. It was a pretty large crest, but not one where it should have gotten airborne at that speed. But since I can't remember which stage it was, you can believe me or not.
One of the great things about the age we live in is that it doesn't matter if I believe you or not, you can simply grab a share video of it happening and show us.

Now as far as it being a case that shouldn't have happened in reality, what are you basing that on? I've lost contact with the ground over humpback bridges and large crests at circa 30mph so I'm not sure why you are so sure its impossible.

I would assume that it receives less traffic than roads in San Remo, or the streets of Monaco. And it's more noticeable in certain cars. The Abarth 131 is particularly bad, but a lot of the cars do that to some extent or another. And for some odd reason, I notice it happen more on dry tarmac than anywhere else. Such as Pike's Peak, or tarmac sections of rallycross courses.
It almost certainly will, but a lot of that traffic will be far heavier and you are also forgetting that the closing speeds at Pikes Peak are far higher, so the total momentum to stop is much greater and as a result the weight transfer is far greater.

Rallycross is easy to answer, they run radial tyres in rallycross, you will find it no different in DiRT rally.


I actually think that they're both not particularly good. I only give the edge to WRC 5 because it doesn't seem to exhibit some of the weirdness that I mentioned in SLRE. And the cars seem more weighted down and don't get airborne as easily, but I guess that could also be deceptive due to their stages not having as many crests. I guess it does that weird yaw thing too, but that doesn't bother me as much.
So something things that video evidence in this thread along shows is not going to happen on every corner at all, and when you are not comparing like for like cars is a major issue in SLRE; but a flaw that exists at the core of the physics engine and occurs every time you turn the wheel and bears no resemblance at all to reality gets a pass in WRC 5?

I get that you might prefer WRC5, but objectively it most certainly doesn't have a better physics engine that SLRE, which shouldn't actually be a surprise given that the devs were not aiming to make a sim in the first place.



If I have the bias cranked forward, then front wheels should lock first. There's no reason why the car should behave like the handbrake was pulled and the front wheels still have grip. That happened to Higgins when he was lifting due to weight transfer, not anything locking. I can understand the rear coming around under braking when no wheels are locking up, or just the rear locking up, but not when the front wheels should be locking first.
No. The front wheels are more likely to lock first, but its not a certainty at all and the reason why is in your own post.

Load transfer.

A heavy load transfer to the front will increase the available grip (as available grip is load on a tyre x the mU factor of the tyre/road interface - mU increases with load as well, but only up to a point after which it reduces - unless its aero load). As such its perfectly possible for a massive front bias to be able to manage a large load transfer, while the reduced load at the rear still be overcome by the large amount of load coming off and the reduction in grip. Have you ever ridden a motorbike hard? As this is exactly what happens with motorbikes, to the degree that on track rear brakes are used very, very little.


I would also once again have to ask why when this issue can be explained by real world physics and isn't happening all the time is such a major issue and yet something that has no parallel in reality (the fixed centre yaw which has no influence over the direction of travel) and actually breaks the laws of physics gets a pass?

I have to be honest if you hold WRC 5 as having a better physics engine then I don't think you are going to like DiRT either, as the physics engine in DiRT and SLRE are not a million miles apart at all, while the difference between WRC 5 and the two of them is huge.
 

PzR Slim

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Fully agree with your comparison @Scaff. I actually fired up SLRE for the first time in a while the other day and was immediately struck by how 'right' it felt. I feel it has a slightly more nuanced physics model compared to Dirt Rally so is better in terms of physics and ffb. It's obviously not as pretty as Dirt Rally but that's easy to look past when the driving is so much fun. Fully agree that people should have both games in their collection.
 
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Good write-up and not to complain or anything but why doesn't GTP make some nice news articles out of stuff like this? It would be a welcome change 👍
 

Scaff

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Good write-up and not to complain or anything but why doesn't GTP make some nice news articles out of stuff like this? It would be a welcome change 👍
Thanks. I have no problem with it being used as site news, that call would be down to @SlipZtrEm
 
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With the GT86 I recomend you (because is what I did) to adjust the car to have less oversteer. It really helps.

Look here Chris Harris driving it. It begins drifting at 10 miles an hour :lol: The car is to much tail happy.


About Dirt Rally, have to say the expierence with wheel in places like Greece or Scotland (the stages are just as dificult as SLRE) is better than in SLRE because in that places the force feedback and the phisics (in asphal dont otherwise) keeps up with SLRE force feedback and the sound and graphics are better.

I actually did set the suspension to have less oversteer. But the car just isn't as responsive as the FWD cars in its class. Like it just doesn't turn in as quickly, and it isn't quite as stable.



One of the great things about the age we live in is that it doesn't matter if I believe you or not, you can simply grab a share video of it happening and show us.

Now as far as it being a case that shouldn't have happened in reality, what are you basing that on? I've lost contact with the ground over humpback bridges and large crests at circa 30mph so I'm not sure why you are so sure its impossible.

It didn't cross my mind at the time to grab a video. I'll do it next time it happens. It would be easier if I remembered where it was. I think it was in Alsace somewhere. I actually specifically looked at the speedometer when it happened and it was around 60 km/h. I'm pretty sure it would be impossible because regular street traffic would actually have a chance of catching air if that was the case. Even over the biggest crest I have ever encountered on a public road (a hill kind of crest, not bridge) I had to go twice that speed to even come close to catching air. It didn't even quite happen either. Not saying the crest I saw was as severe as the one I saw in the stage, but it doesn't seem likely to happen in real life at city speed limit speeds.


It almost certainly will, but a lot of that traffic will be far heavier and you are also forgetting that the closing speeds at Pikes Peak are far higher, so the total momentum to stop is much greater and as a result the weight transfer is far greater.

Rallycross is easy to answer, they run radial tyres in rallycross, you will find it no different in DiRT rally.

I'm going to disagree with you here. When I was playing on Pike's Peak, I never adjusted any of the gearing, so I topped out at ~180 km/h. Speeds don't have anything to do it in this case. As for the tires. I don't see how the tires by themselves will make the car suddenly snap oversteer on braking. I also don't understand what you mean by they run radial tires. Cars on the street run radial tires.



So something things that video evidence in this thread along shows is not going to happen on every corner at all, and when you are not comparing like for like cars is a major issue in SLRE; but a flaw that exists at the core of the physics engine and occurs every time you turn the wheel and bears no resemblance at all to reality gets a pass in WRC 5?

I get that you might prefer WRC5, but objectively it most certainly doesn't have a better physics engine that SLRE, which shouldn't actually be a surprise given that the devs were not aiming to make a sim in the first place.

I don't think I ever said I thought WRC 5 physics were more realistic. I rated it above SLRE because it felt less weird. SLRE is probably more realistic in the sense that the techniques used to drive the cars are more realistic. But as I said before, I think certain aspects are too exaggerated so I ranked it lower in terms of feel. Everything I've stated about the cars getting airborne too easily, oversteer under braking too easily, rolling over too easily, etc. I have no doubt those are realistic behaviors in cars, but I just think they happen too easily and readily in SLRE. WRC 5 is definitely not more realistic, but I rate the physics higher than SLRE because SLRE to me in some aspects seems like a caricature of real life.


No. The front wheels are more likely to lock first, but its not a certainty at all and the reason why is in your own post.

Load transfer.

A heavy load transfer to the front will increase the available grip (as available grip is load on a tyre x the mU factor of the tyre/road interface - mU increases with load as well, but only up to a point after which it reduces - unless its aero load). As such its perfectly possible for a massive front bias to be able to manage a large load transfer, while the reduced load at the rear still be overcome by the large amount of load coming off and the reduction in grip. Have you ever ridden a motorbike hard? As this is exactly what happens with motorbikes, to the degree that on track rear brakes are used very, very little.

I understand load transfer and that it will give the front wheels more grip, but it will not compensate for full front brake bias. If it happens when I have 50:50 bias, then fine. But if it happens when I have 90:10 bias, something is wrong. This is something not possible in PCARS for example. You'd just plow straight forward. I have a car with no ABS in real life, and I've locked up the brakes and never has it even come close to swapping ends. I've spun my car with ABS on track when trail braking due to weight transfer, but not because of lock up. In SLRE, cars threaten to do this even when braking in a straight line. It happens pretty much every time on that autocross track with the two hairpins. You mentioned something about the tires they use, but I don't see how it would cause this kind of behavior.


I would also once again have to ask why when this issue can be explained by real world physics and isn't happening all the time is such a major issue and yet something that has no parallel in reality (the fixed centre yaw which has no influence over the direction of travel) and actually breaks the laws of physics gets a pass?

Neither of them get a pass. WRC 5's flaws just happen to annoy me less so I rate the physics higher. Like I said before, I didn't rate it higher due to realism. I'd rate SLRE higher if those certain aspects weren't as exaggerated.

The issues with SLRE can be explained with physics if you use the concepts loosely sure. But I'm saying that they shouldn't happen under those conditions. In theory, of course cars can get airborne over a crest, or oversteer under braking. But does it happen at such low a speed, or with such forward bias? I'm saying it shouldn't.


I have to be honest if you hold WRC 5 as having a better physics engine then I don't think you are going to like DiRT either, as the physics engine in DiRT and SLRE are not a million miles apart at all, while the difference between WRC 5 and the two of them is huge.

This might be tricky. Because the problems I have with SLRE are very subtle. A little more weight on the cars, and more stability under braking and it would be golden in my eyes. It just so happens that those particular issues irritate me quite a bit because they have an effect on a large portion of every stage. If the cars in Dirt Rally even just has less tendency to get airborne I would be very happy with it. Even the brake thing doesn't really happen very much on regular rally stages now that I've played the game more. It really happens mostly on rally cross, which I don't like anyway.
 
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Scaff

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It didn't cross my mind at the time to grab a video. I'll do it next time it happens. It would be easier if I remembered where it was. I think it was in Alsace somewhere. I actually specifically looked at the speedometer when it happened and it was around 60 km/h. I'm pretty sure it would be impossible because regular street traffic would actually have a chance of catching air if that was the case. Even over the biggest crest I have ever encountered on a public road (a hill kind of crest, not bridge) I had to go twice that speed to even come close to catching air. It didn't even quite happen either. Not saying the crest I saw was as severe as the one I saw in the stage, but it doesn't seem likely to happen in real life at city speed limit speeds.
Please do, or at the very least a screen shot.

I've got a lot of hours logged on SLRE and have not found what you have described at all, in fact I would say that the cars in WRC 5 have less of a sense of weight about them by quite a degree.


I'm going to disagree with you here. When I was playing on Pike's Peak, I never adjusted any of the gearing, so I topped out at ~180 km/h. Speeds don't have anything to do it in this case. As for the tires. I don't see how the tires by themselves will make the car suddenly snap oversteer on braking. I also don't understand what you mean by they run radial tires. Cars on the street run radial tires.
My mistake I meant to say Cross-ply tyres, have you ever driven on cross plys?

I don't think I ever said I thought WRC 5 physics were more realistic. I rated it above SLRE because it felt less weird. SLRE is probably more realistic in the sense that the techniques used to drive the cars are more realistic. But as I said before, I think certain aspects are too exaggerated so I ranked it lower in terms of feel. Everything I've stated about the cars getting airborne too easily, oversteer under braking too easily, rolling over too easily, etc. I have no doubt those are realistic behaviors in cars, but I just think they happen too easily and readily in SLRE. WRC 5 is definitely not more realistic, but I rate the physics higher than SLRE because SLRE to me in some aspects seems like a caricature of real life.
So the physics in WRC 5 are better because they are fundamentally flawed and exhibit behaviour that defies the laws of physics?

I would have to disagree, but then again I'm not getting the over exaggerated sense that you are claiming to find with SLRE at all.

I understand load transfer and that it will give the front wheels more grip, but it will not compensate for full front brake bias. If it happens when I have 50:50 bias, then fine. But if it happens when I have 90:10 bias, something is wrong. This is something not possible in PCARS for example. You'd just plow straight forward. I have a car with no ABS in real life, and I've locked up the brakes and never has it even come close to swapping ends. I've spun my car with ABS on track when trail braking due to weight transfer, but not because of lock up. In SLRE, cars threaten to do this even when braking in a straight line. It happens pretty much every time on that autocross track with the two hairpins. You mentioned something about the tires they use, but I don't see how it would cause this kind of behavior.
You can't separate load transfer and locked-up. The former doesn't stop because the later suddenly happens.

However cross-plys are much less stable under extreme load than radials, so that factor does also come into it (they are however far more durable particularly in the sidewall, but they do make cars interesting under heavy braking.

However I can assure you that its perfectly possible to get a vehicle oversteering with the fronts locked, as I said its more likely to happen with a motorbike, but the same laws of physics apply to both.

Neither of them get a pass. WRC 5's flaws just happen to annoy me less so I rate the physics higher. Like I said before, I didn't rate it higher due to realism. I'd rate SLRE higher if those certain aspects weren't as exaggerated.

The issues with SLRE can be explained with physics if you use the concepts loosely sure. But I'm saying that they shouldn't happen under those conditions. In theory, of course cars can get airborne over a crest, or oversteer under braking. But does it happen at such low a speed, or with such forward bias? I'm saying it shouldn't.
Get a steep enough crest and it can happen at road legal speeds, but I'm not finding it happen at 30mph on any of the above videos, so you are going to have to provide an example. Its the same with the braking, I'm not finding it an issue at all in comparison to the seeming constant problem you have implied it is.

This might be tricky. Because the problems I have with SLRE are very subtle. A little more weight on the cars, and more stability under braking and it would be golden in my eyes. It just so happens that those particular issues irritate me quite a bit because they have an effect on a large portion of every stage. If the cars in Dirt Rally even just has less tendency to get airborne I would be very happy with it. Even the brake thing doesn't really happen very much on regular rally stages now that I've played the game more. It really happens mostly on rally cross, which I don't like anyway.
Now I must admit to being very confused.

It seems that problems that are a caricature of real world physics and almost constant have now become minor issues now that you have played it some more?

I take it that you are comparing like for like between WRC5 and SLRE, and not a modern WRC car with 4WD and modern brakes and tyres weighing in at 1230kgs as a minimum with FWD rally car from the '80s with smaller tyres, brakes and weighing in at under 800kgs (or worse still a Mini Cooper coming in at around 600kgs)?
 
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Awong124
Please do, or at the very least a screen shot.

I couldn't find that exact one I was referring to. But I just tried El Chocolate again, and I don't think a screen shot is necessary because it is recreateable pretty much 100%. You can actually catch air several times over the stage at speeds between 50-60 km/h. Not much air mind you, but it gets airborne nonetheless. The first one is just a few corners into the stage. I mean, if you really insist on a screenshot I can get it, but I can tell you one exact spot that it happens.


I've got a lot of hours logged on SLRE and have not found what you have described at all, in fact I would say that the cars in WRC 5 have less of a sense of weight about them by quite a degree.

To be quite honest with you, it could just be a memory thing, because I haven't played WRC 5 in a while. But I just don't recall being as irritated at certain things in WRC 5. If the thing that really bothers you is that I think SLRE physics is not as good as WRC 5, then we can just disregard it. Pretend I never said it, because my memory on the issue might be spotty. And to me, how one game compares to the other is not really important. That has never been an important point for me, I just said it off-hand but you happened to pick up on it. But my issues with the other things still stand.


My mistake I meant to say Cross-ply tyres, have you ever driven on cross plys?

No, I have not driven on bias plys.


So the physics in WRC 5 are better because they are fundamentally flawed and exhibit behaviour that defies the laws of physics?

I would have to disagree, but then again I'm not getting the over exaggerated sense that you are claiming to find with SLRE at all.


You can't separate load transfer and locked-up. The former doesn't stop because the later suddenly happens.

But it becomes a lot less likely for the rear to break loose when the fronts are locked up because the car is no longer slowing down as quickly, therefore less weight transfer. Just because it can happen doesn't mean it's likely to happen, and definitely not nearly every time.


However cross-plys are much less stable under extreme load than radials, so that factor does also come into it (they are however far more durable particularly in the sidewall, but they do make cars interesting under heavy braking.

That could factor in I guess, but I'll have to take your word for it. But it also happens on Pikes Peak, so I'm not sure what's going on there.


However I can assure you that its perfectly possible to get a vehicle oversteering with the fronts locked, as I said its more likely to happen with a motorbike, but the same laws of physics apply to both.

That hasn't been my experience, at least not when initiating braking in a straight line, but anyway.


Get a steep enough crest and it can happen at road legal speeds, but I'm not finding it happen at 30mph on any of the above videos, so you are going to have to provide an example. Its the same with the braking, I'm not finding it an issue at all in comparison to the seeming constant problem you have implied it is.

Again, you can try El Chocolate. If it doesn't happen for you I'll get a screenshot.


Now I must admit to being very confused.

It seems that problems that are a caricature of real world physics and almost constant have now become minor issues now that you have played it some more?

It just happens that the more I play SLRE, the more I just drive around the issues. Doesn't mean the issues went away. Like the brake issue, I just pretty much not brake hard at all, even for hairpins, and just start braking ridiculously early, then make up for it in other sections of the stage. But it's an issue in rally cross because I can't do that when other cars are braking late as well.


I take it that you are comparing like for like between WRC5 and SLRE, and not a modern WRC car with 4WD and modern brakes and tyres weighing in at 1230kgs as a minimum with FWD rally car from the '80s with smaller tyres, brakes and weighing in at under 800kgs (or worse still a Mini Cooper coming in at around 600kgs)?

The brake issue I've tried with numerous different cars, from 70s to A8s, and they all exhibit this kind of behavior from one extent to another. Again, it's most prominent on rally cross, but you put that down to bias ply tires. It also happens braking for the hairpin on Pikes Peak Short though, but I have no idea why it would do that when I brake more or less in a straight line without much if any steering input. I have never experienced a car doing that either in real life, or in PCARS or F1 games, etc.

[EDIT] I had the game open anyway, so I got you the screenshot. It's not much air, but the front wheels are very clearly off the ground. This is actually not even the car at the zenith of its jump. It's just very difficult to time the screen capture because the button on the PS4 has a delay before taking the screenshot. I took a dozen previous screenshots that weren't timed quite right before settling on this one.

Sébastien Loeb Rally EVO_20160825104550.jpg



And I just remembered. PCARS also have old race cars with bias ply tires, and they also don't behave like the cars in SLRE. I would imagine PCARS has a much more sophisticated tire model than SLRE.
 
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Scaff

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[EDIT] I had the game open anyway, so I got you the screenshot. It's not much air, but the front wheels are very clearly off the ground. This is actually not even the car at the zenith of its jump. It's just very difficult to time the screen capture because the button on the PS4 has a delay before taking the screenshot. I took a dozen previous screenshots that weren't timed quite right before settling on this one.

View attachment 579654

That's it!

Just for reference that what you described as:

The cars don't have enough sense of weight. Going over every crest the car always wants to go flying, even at modest speeds.

A car that weights sub 800kgs on one of the roughest rally events in the world has its front tyre off the ground and you are surprised.

I'm sorry but that neither unrealistic, nor is it surprising and its certainly wanting to go flying. Nor will you end up..
spearing off the road
...as a result of it.

I have to be honest its starting to sound as if your original claims have not been replicated by anyone as they are a result of exageration.

I've done worse that that on a closed b-road at road legal speeds in a car weight twice that.

And I just remembered. PCARS also have old race cars with bias ply tires, and they also don't behave like the cars in SLRE. I would imagine PCARS has a much more sophisticated tire model than SLRE.
Yep because a car set-up for the track and one set up for rally cross and rally stages are going to behave in the exact same way.

That's aside I have come across the exact same thing in PCars, particulrlry with the Mk 1 Escort.
 
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Awong124
That's it!

Just for reference that what you described as:



A car that weights sub 800kgs on one of the roughest rally events in the world has its front tyre off the ground and you are surprised.

I'm sorry but that neither unrealistic, nor is it surprising and its certainly wanting to go flying. Nor will you end up..

...as a result of it.

I have to be honest its starting to sound as if your original claims have not been replicated by anyone as they are a result of exageration.

I've done worse that that on a closed b-road at road legal speeds in a car weight twice that.


Yep because a car set-up for the track and one set up for rally cross and rally stages are going to behave in the exact same way.

That's aside I have come across the exact same thing in PCars, particulrlry with the Mk 1 Escort.

Lol, I show you a screenshot of what I described and of course you'd find something wrong with it. I knew it. Go figure.

Also, you don't seem to understand basic physics. It doesn't matter how much the car weighs. I could have done it with any car and it would do the same thing. If it doesn't then it would be something wrong with the game's physics. Gravity acts on objects of any mass the same. It's the whole dropping a bowling ball and feather in a vacuum thing. The only factors that matter are the car's speed and the shape and size of the crest.

And of course, I give you an example of something else using bias ply tires, and you go "no no, it's not the same". Whatever man. I give you examples, and all you give me is "no, it definitely does that in real life." Ok, whatever you say.

I have used the Mk I Escort extensively, and that behavior can be tuned out. And even on default settings, it doesn't happen nearly as easily as in SLRE. Like I said before, not inaccurate, just exaggerated.

In any case, I'm done with this. You clearly have no interest in the provided evidence, and don't seem to be interested in providing any of your own. Your videos don't really show anything conclusive really. My screenshot showed exactly what I was talking about.
 
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Scaff

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Lol, I show you a screenshot of what I described and of course you'd find something wrong with it. I knew it. Go figure.
You honestly think that screen shot shows a car about to go flying and spear off the road (your words)?


Also, you don't seem to understand basic physics. It doesn't matter how much the car weighs. I could have done it with any car and it would do the same thing. If it doesn't then it would be something wrong with the game's physics. Gravity acts on objects of any mass the same. It's the whole dropping a bowling ball and feather in a vacuum thing. The only factors that matter are the car's speed and the shape and size of the crest.
So mass has no affect on the energy required to defeat gravity?

You seem to be mixing up dropping something with defeating gravity (which you need to do to get off the ground). By your logic it takes no more force to lift a feather off the ground than it does an elephant, which means NASA have been getting a lot wrong over the years.

http://arachnoid.com/gravitation_equations/power_energy_gravity.html


And of course, I give you an example of something else using bias ply tires, and you go "no no, it's not the same". Whatever man. I give you examples, and all you give me is "no, it definitely does that in real life." Ok, whatever you say.

I have used the Mk I Escort extensively, and that behavior can be tuned out. And even on default settings, it doesn't happen nearly as easily as in SLRE. Like I said before, not inaccurate, just exaggerated.

In any case, I'm done with this. You clearly have no interest in the provided evidence, and don't seem to be interested in providing any of your own. Your videos don't really show anything conclusive really. My screenshot showed exactly what I was talking about.
Really?

You have provided one screen shot and none specific examples which don't compare like for like. I've provided half a dozen videos that show clear comparisons both in and out of car for all three titles across a wide range of surfaces, all of which anyone else can use to recreate any of this.
 
1,118
Canada
Vancouver, BC
Awong124
You honestly think that screen shot shows a car about to go flying and spear off the road (your words)?



So mass has no affect on the energy required to defeat gravity?

You seem to be mixing up dropping something with defeating gravity (which you need to do to get off the ground). By your logic it takes no more force to lift a feather off the ground than it does an elephant, which means NASA have been getting a lot wrong over the years.

http://arachnoid.com/gravitation_equations/power_energy_gravity.html



Really?

You have provided one screen shot and none specific examples which don't compare like for like. I've provided half a dozen videos that show clear comparisons both in and out of car for all three titles across a wide range of surfaces, all of which anyone else can use to recreate any of this.

Ok, last thing. And only to explain the gravity thing because you seem to be confused. An object traveling along a trajectory gets affected by gravity the same way regardless of mass. Power to lift an object off the ground has no relevance in this case, because nothing is directly working against the force of gravity. In order for energy working against gravity to be relevant, there has to be acceleration upward once it has already left the ground, and that is not the case. The reason the car lifts off the ground is not because something is powering it off the ground. The car is only lifting off the ground simply because that is the trajectory of any object traveling at that speed and angle. If you somehow launch a ping pong ball at 50 km/h off that crest, it would travel along the same path as the car (assuming no drag).

It's basically the same concept as a falling object, not lifting an object. Because at the speed the object is traveling when it launches off the crest it is basically falling back to the ground. The only thing that lifts it off the ground is its horizontal speed and the angle of the ramp leading up to the crest. The object will travel in a parabolic trajectory without any energy required to work against gravity, other than what is needed to go up the ramp. Then when it reaches the end of the ramp, the only thing that matters is its speed. The energy to power it up the ramp is irrelevant to the falling object.

I'm trying to make this as clear as possible, so I'm explaining it in a few different ways. So we could be looking at a tank or a ping pong ball, it doesn't matter. The energy getting the tank up the ramp at 50 km/h would be a lot more than it would be for the ping pong ball, true. But once it reaches the end of the ramp, as long as both objects are traveling at the same speed, and there is no drag, they would have the same trajectory.

I can explain it using equations and formulas, but if you don't understand the above I doubt you'd understand an explanation with formulas.
 
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Scaff

Moderator
26,037
United Kingdom
He/Him
ScaffUK
ScaffGTP
Ok, last thing. And only to explain the gravity thing because you seem to be confused. An object traveling along a trajectory gets affected by gravity the same way regardless of mass. Power to lift an object off the ground has no relevance in this case, because nothing is directly working against the force of gravity. In order for energy working against gravity to be relevant, there has to be acceleration upward once it has already left the ground, and that is not the case. The reason the car lifts off the ground is not because something is powering it off the ground. The car is only lifting off the ground simply because that is the trajectory of any object traveling at that speed and angle. If you somehow launch a ping pong ball at 50 km/h off that crest, it would travel along the same path as the car (assuming no drag).

It's basically the same concept as a falling object, not lifting an object. Because at the speed the object is traveling when it launches off the crest it is basically falling back to the ground. The only thing that lifts it off the ground is its horizontal speed and the angle of the ramp leading up to the crest. The object will travel in a parabolic trajectory without any energy required to work against gravity, other than what is needed to go up the ramp. Then when it reaches the end of the ramp, the only thing that matters is its speed. The energy to power it up the ramp is irrelevant to the falling object.

I'm trying to make this as clear as possible, so I'm explaining it in a few different ways. So we could be looking at a tank or a ping pong ball, it doesn't matter. The energy getting the tank up the ramp at 50 km/h would be a lot more than it would be for the ping pong ball, true. But once it reaches the end of the ramp, as long as both objects are traveling at the same speed, and there is no drag, they would have the same trajectory.

I can explain it using equations and formulas, but if you don't understand the above I doubt you'd understand an explanation with formulas.
My mistake and I'm happy to acknowledge it as such, and no I don't need the formula I understand it perfectly well.

It doesn't however change the point that your screenshot doesn't match what you described.
 
2,300
Dirt Rally < SLRE < WRC 5.

In terms of gameplay and simulation, Dirt Rally is the clear winner, although SLRE comes a lot closer than I would have expected. SLRE wins hands down in terms of content, and if it weren't for Dirt Rally, it would have been somewhat of a revelation in the rally segment.

WRC 5 is a clear 3rd place in terms of gameplay, content, graphics and sound. Not even close to the other two games
 
240
Poland
Poland
PiotrGT
Dirt Rally < SLRE < WRC 5.

In terms of gameplay and simulation, Dirt Rally is the clear winner, although SLRE comes a lot closer than I would have expected. SLRE wins hands down in terms of content, and if it weren't for Dirt Rally, it would have been somewhat of a revelation in the rally segment.

WRC 5 is a clear 3rd place in terms of gameplay, content, graphics and sound. Not even close to the other two games

I agree with you, I own only Dirt Rally but I like the car list of SLRE. I don't want to be nitpicky though but it looks like you mixed up the symbols, it makes Dirt Rally seem like the worst of the three and WRC the best one.
 
2,300
I agree with you, I own only Dirt Rally but I like the car list of SLRE. I don't want to be nitpicky though but it looks like you mixed up the symbols, it makes Dirt Rally seem like the worst of the three and WRC the best one.

Right you are! I got my arrows back to front. Should be Dirt Rally > SLRE > WRC 5 👍

PS looks like GT Sport has been delayed... What a surprise. I still hold no hope that the rally component will be anything more than a gimmicky addon (as it has been with all GT games to date), with half baked physics and the same pathetic engine sounds.

Bring on Dirt Rally 2!
 
2,300


In summary is a hideous looking title that play excellently, has a huge amount to do and a great car list, and will never get any future love and attention as its developed by Milestone (who have a great track record of almost never updating titles post release for more than five minutes).

That's a bit harsh. I wasn't expecting much graphics-wise from SLRE but was pleasantly surprised by the end result. Much nicer than WRC 5 in my opinion. The biggest issue was frame rate...