Red Bull RB6

[Peter]

Adrian Newey, you clever bastard

 

[prisonermonkeys]

It's been reported that Ferrari, Mercedes, McLaren and possibly Renault have entered into an arrangement where they share their data for the sake of building cars that can catch the RB6.

 

[Peter]

Wow, Red Bull really isn't THAT far ahead.

 

[Seismica]

It's been reported that Ferrari, Mercedes, McLaren and possibly Renault have entered into an arrangement where they share their data for the sake of building cars that can catch the RB6.

Not going to happen.

 

[Open Addict]

Wow, Red Bull really isn't THAT far ahead.

Isn't half a second considered to be basically yesterday in F1 times? I think the main thing that helps RBR during the race is their fuel efficency, which allows them to run with less fuel in the car. And the fact that the car is itself fast.

The only thing that has kept RBR from storming away in the points battle is their reliability.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Not going to happen.

Why not? They're not sharing intimate details of their cars, they're simply trying to work out what Red Bull have that they don't. Three or four teams working together can cover a hell of a lot more ground than three or four teams working individually. Once they've figured out where Red Bull get their speed from, the deal is off and they're free to come up with their own interpretations.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

It's been reported that Ferrari, Mercedes, McLaren and possibly Renault have entered into an arrangement where they share their data for the sake of building cars that can catch the RB6.

That's not surprising. I thought something like this could possibly be happening due to certain things said in Barcelona.

 

[Ardius]

I tend to think this is a bit of a story for the sake of a story, sure well directed exhaust will help tidy the air leaving the car, this is known as...drag yer. It doesn't do to much though, both RBR cars are always in the lower part of the speed trap times, sometimes 10 kph off McLaren who lead almost every session.
As for creating down force, that's only going to work if your on the power, right. So no aid under braking in the corner, no aid at the apex, and some on the exit, mostly on the straights....? under full power hmmm [sarcasm]that seems useful..[/sarcasm].
When Vettel's exhaust broke in Bahrain, Button could do nothing that even looked like passing. The broken pipe could not have aided in tidying the air or creating downforce, infact it would have done quite the opposite, it would have hindered. If the potential of the exhaust was damaged it would be obvious, Button would have blown past, Vettel was down on power too. So I conclude that the mechanical grip, diffuser and the all the other aero parts have far more effect than an exhaust.

But hey.. what would I know... the BBC's F1 reporter Ted Kravtiz, has been in the game longer than me and on the playing field, well sidelines anyway.

Its not the exhaust itself per se, if you read Kravitz's blog its the overall design of the whole car resulting from that exhaust position as well. It means the rear of the car is very tightly packaged and it alters the design of the rest of the car too. If you make any change to any part of an F1 car, it can affect the entire design. A change like this may mean they can run more effecient aero parts at the front of the car because they require less air manipulation to make the rear more effective. (at a guess).

Anyway, I was just floating the idea around, because people seemed to have forgotten this different design.

Why not? They're not sharing intimate details of their cars, they're simply trying to work out what Red Bull have that they don't. Three or four teams working together can cover a hell of a lot more ground than three or four teams working individually. Once they've figured out where Red Bull get their speed from, the deal is off and they're free to come up with their own interpretations.

You don't understand the nature of competition do you?
Like hell the other teams are going to tell each other how to gain an advantage, what a daft idea. If Ferrari work out the advantage they are going to use it for themselves so they gain an advantage. If everyone just tells each other the solution, there is no advantage gained, which obviously is very stupid.

I can't believe someone actually even suggested that? Really? Its like if Red Bull went "hey guys, Adrian designed this awesome aero design but we didn't want to ruin the competition, so here you go".

 

[waggles]

Isn't half a second considered to be basically yesterday in F1 times? I think the main thing that helps RBR during the race is their fuel efficency, which allows them to run with less fuel in the car. And the fact that the car is itself fast.

The only thing that has kept RBR from storming away in the points battle is their reliability.

Ferrari believe that it is due to the way that it maximises the soft tyre in qualifying-which is why the advantage is so huge in quali, but not so much in race mode.

 

[Louie_Schumii]

...As for creating down force, that's only going to work if your on the power, right. So no aid under braking in the corner, no aid at the apex, and some on the exit, mostly on the straights....?

Exhaust gasses don't stop flowing under braking no? Might as well use that waste heated airflow (regardless of how much or little there is) to speed up the air around the diffuser for that extra bit of downforce if they can manage it.

 

[Dijital Majik]

As for creating down force, that's only going to work if your on the power, right. So no aid under braking in the corner, no aid at the apex, and some on the exit, mostly on the straights....? under full power hmmm [sarcasm]that seems useful..[/sarcasm].

During practice today, the 5-live guys said the car gains a lot of time in high-speed corners (hence why it may not be great at Monaco).

 

[Seismica]

Exhaust gasses don't stop flowing under braking no? Might as well use that waste heated airflow (regardless of how much or little there is) to speed up the air around the diffuser for that extra bit of downforce if they can manage it.

With the banning of double diffusers next season, won't the exhaust gases be more useful on the lower part of the rear wing? Will the lower exhaust exit still be more effective than a higher one when the diffusers are greatly reduced in size and downforce output.

 

[Louie_Schumii]

With the banning of double diffusers next season, won't the exhaust gases be more useful on the lower part of the rear wing? Will the lower exhaust exit still be more effective than a higher one when the diffusers are greatly reduced in size and downforce output.

I'm not an F1 engineer for a reason lol. But if I had to give an answer:

The Red Bulls since last year had a design philosophy of packaging the rear of the car as tight and as low as possible (because Adrian Newey's really crafty in using a pull-rod rear suspension) so they will probably still keep the exhausts where they are.

Plus there's that bit about cleaning up the airflow on the rear tyres. And lower CoG. I'd say most likely than not they'll stick with it but I'm not an F1 engineer remember

 

[Seismica]

I'm not an F1 engineer for a reason lol. But if I had to give an answer:

The Red Bulls since last year had a design philosophy of packaging the rear of the car as tight and as low as possible (because Adrian Newey's really crafty in using a pull-rod rear suspension) so they will probably still keep the exhausts where they are.

Plus there's that bit about cleaning up the airflow on the rear tyres. And lower CoG. I'd say most likely than not they'll stick with it but I'm not an F1 engineer remember

Hopefully some day I will be. I need to be educated first (Going to uni to study Mechanical Engineering in September hopefully), because I know pretty much nothing I don't know what a pull-rod suspension is

 

[PeterJB]

Probably suspension with no springs, just a piston like on a bicycle pump, cause I haven't seen an F1 car with suspension springs in years.

 

[Dijital Majik]

Probably suspension with no springs, just a piston like on a bicycle pump, cause I haven't seen an F1 car with suspension springs in years.

What hit Massa last year then?

 

[Ardius]

Heres an explanation of pull-rod for you:
http://www.formula1.com/news/technical/2009/0/626.html

And its benefits:
http://www.f1technical.net/development/225

As the F1 technical article says, the last car before 2009 to use pull-rod suspension was the Arrows A21 in 2000.

 

[Seismica]

Heres an explanation of pull-rod for you:
http://www.formula1.com/news/technical/2009/0/626.html

So that is difference between push-rod and pull-rod suspension?

💡

So in other words, it's like taking a toilet roll holder and putting it on the other way. Right, gotcha.

(Well, not quite...)

 

[Louie_Schumii]

Way to point out my not being a Formula 1 engineer .

That toilet roll holder analogy is actually quite a clever by the way! 👍

 

[Alex.]

Been debating with Only In F1 as to whether the car has a trick as to why it's so damn fast. I think it's just an almost perfect design for the regulations, Mike thinks there is something going on.

What does GTP think?

 

[astrosdude91]

Well, I can tell you this: Adrian Newey is a hell of car designer! And coupled with the fact that two of the best drivers in Formula One today are in the seat of an RB6. So I'm not surprised that the car is as quick as it is.

But, I am a dedicated Red Bull Racing fan, so maybe that's just the fanboyism talking.

 

[NapoleonMikey]

I think Newey just happens to be able to pull the most out of the car. Just look at last season, even with out the double diffuser they where the only team that could keep up with the DD teams at the beginning of the season. They have been at the front of the new technology this season with the exhaust and the front wing. I think they just happen to have built the better car this season.

 

[Jim Prower]

We call that kinda suspension "Cantilever" in the offroad world. Useful for hiding shocks, though the offroad guys use it to get away with using short shocks for long travel.

I had some idle wondering on exhaust...What if some effort were made to cool the exhaust gases before they were let out of the pipes? Theoretically would reduce backpressure...not that there's all that much, anyway, since an F1 car basically runs open headers, exhausting at the collector...

 

[PeterJB]

I was watching practice last Friday and Anthony Davidson said that if you put the Red Bull wing on the McLaren it would hinder it (McLaren) because the car is designed around the wing. The RB6 could just be a perfect combination of everything, or their is something they're not telling us about. Christian Horner was quite happy to reveal their exhaust design because he new that it isn't where most of their speed is coming from, maybe their is something they're still keeping a secret.

 

[Matti_Dude]

Yeah I was watching that as well. But I think Anthony was talking about how the front wing changes all of the airflow over the rest of the car. So if you took the front wing off one car and put it on a different one, it would not help that car as the airflow effecting the rest of the aerodynamics would be different.

 

[waggles]

Completely off the previous discussion, but is there any advantage to having the dash off the steering wheel and mounted on the car, rather than integrated into the steering wheel? They and STR are the only teams that do it now, McLaren used to do it.

 

[Only_in_f1]

I think theres a trick. Remember the McLaren '3rd pedal'?

He is one hell of a designer and what is mentioned earlier the Pullrod suspension is part of the package.

 

[Ardius]

Red Bull and Newey stated at the start of the year "there is no one aspect that makes our car fast, there's lots of small things".
Now think about how many "tricks" have been revealed so far, blown diffusers, flexing wings....

Newey has always been a fantastic designer, its not at all surprising he has done it once again.
I don't see any evidence that there is a single trick system which makes the car fast but of course its always plausible. But Newey has always been capable of designing cars that much faster, especially with bigger regulation changes.

Shame Red Bull are making mistakes all over the place, they could have dominated this season without the reliability woes, strategy errors and poor driver management.

I think theres a trick. Remember the McLaren '3rd pedal'?

He is one hell of a designer and what is mentioned earlier the Pullrod suspension is part of the package.

Of course there are always little tricks. But 1 trick doesn't make the car so much faster, its the tricks combined with a great aero package. Usually the tricks come into play for gaining in mechanical characteristics (though obviously there are aero tricks too).
I think the RB6 has fantastic aerodynamics from a baseline plus neat tricks like blown diffusers etc.

 

[astrosdude91]

Well, it's official. The FIA have ruled that the RB6 front wing is completely legal! Good news for me!👍👍

 

[Ardius]

The FIA have increased the weight test for the front wings for Belgium. They haven't ruled it legal just yet, just that it passes their current checks.