Redline and gear changes

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If you want a good 0-60 or 0-120 time is it better to go into the redline and then change gear or do like in GT4 and change just before redline?

A couple of vids ive seen on other sites, the cars go way into redline and then change but I cant really tell if its because of wheelspin or that the guys just cant change gear quick enough or that it helps improve their times...
 
Well, in real life , the perfect shift is where the car has the most hp. eg 100hp @4700rpm. Not in the redline
In gt4 , as i know, the perfect shift is in the redline(i realised that with the ghost).However I have not tried to shift at the highest hp area
 
You can't make a blanket statement about whether it's better or not, unfortunately. It depends on the gearing and power curves of the car in question.

For instance, on the old DOHC Neons, you want to shift at redline (7500). But for the SOHC version of the same engine, which is tuned to set the torque peak about 1000 rpm lower, you want to shift at 6100.

In general, think of it like this: you want the rev spread of your next gear to balance on the torque peak of your engine. Most amateur enthusiasts will tell you to shift at peak torque for best acceleration. This is usually wrong, because in the new gear, you will be much lower on the steep part of the power curve. If you go past the peak (even though it costs you a little acceleration in the lower gear) you will be much higher on the power curve in the next gear up, so you don't have to dig out from as deep a hole.

Make sense? Of course, sometimes doing that puts you at or near redline (see my DOHC Neon example above). But the mere act of redlining the car itself is not necessarily giving you the best acceleration.

[edit]
Well, in real life , the perfect shift is where the car has the most hp. eg 100hp @4700rpm.
Sorry, but this isn't really correct. See my explanation above.
 
i repped duke. thats a good explination. its a little hard to read for the person asking the question however. i will take a stab.

when you are changing your car settings in GT4 you will notice the power curve of your engine torque and horsepower in the upper right panel of your screen. the idea is to always keep the engine at its beefiest power point. in the case of a small displacement supercharged engine that starts to leak out of power at high revs, it is best to shift as you feel the power drop off. this may be as early as 700 rpm before the limiter is reached. these engines like to make the most torque at mid-rev range. in the application of a high boost turbo engine, the power keeps building as the engine turns faster. in this case you want to shift as late as possible. (a good suppliment to this motor would be to balance it for more revs) a naturaly aspirated motor will have a linear power dilivery and it should be easy to determine the best shift point will some investigation. if is is a bigger motor (>3.5l) the power is typically mid range. smaller engines tend to make more power at higher revs.

next time you are driving a car in turismo and need to know how best to drive it. test it by watching the rate of acceleration as you dash through your lower gears. things to consider again are engine size, method of induction, and gear ratios. cheak your ratios and make sure they suit the power band. adjust the ratios to begin at the begining of your most powerful rpms. keep matching the next gear to engage right at the begining of the torque to keep the car accelerating hard through all the gears.
 
So from reading the posts this is what I am thinking. Just say when you change gear you have to drop 1000rpm and peak power is at 6000rpm, and you have the same power at 5000 and 7000. If you shift at 6000, you will drop to 5000 which is outside the powerband? and it takes longer to get back up to 6000. If you shift at 6500 and then drop to 5500, you are inside the powerband and therefore don't have to wait to get back in and then change??? yes, no, maybe?
 
Exactly when the redline starts or...........
Dynamometer:)

The "redline starts" thing is very wrong. Very few cars--especially proper sports cars--have the redline or limiter exactly at the power peak for the reason Duke stated. Usually it's better to go past the power peak, so that when you shift the revs don't end up too low, before the power starts building.

My Del Sol has DOHC VTEC. The VTEC begins at 5500rpm. The torque peak is at 6800rpm and the power peak is at 7800rpm. The redline is 8000rpm. If I shifted out of second and into third at 7800rpm, I'd end up being a tad shy of 5500rpm because of the gear ratios. That means I wouldn't be able to use the power that I could have used it I'd shifted at 8000. My revs would end up between 5600 and 5800rpm f I'd shifted propwerly. For the majority of the rev range I'm running through the torque and power are building, but I do go past the peaks in order to stay in the exaggerated powerband created by VTEC when the revs drop again after a shift.

But even without VTEC, the priciple is pretty much the same. And not always necessary. It depends on your engine's characterstics and your gear ratios. You just have to experiment if there hasn't been tests done before.


So from reading the posts this is what I am thinking. Just say when you change gear you have to drop 1000rpm and peak power is at 6000rpm, and you have the same power at 5000 and 7000. If you shift at 6000, you will drop to 5000 which is outside the powerband? and it takes longer to get back up to 6000. If you shift at 6500 and then drop to 5500, you are inside the powerband and therefore don't have to wait to get back in and then change??? yes, no, maybe?
Makes sense to me. Sometimes you have to go above your power peak in order to stay inside the powerband when the revs drop after a shift. Therefore, it won't take as long to gain those rpms back.
 
slick rick:

thats a tricky one. i say extend your gear changes to 6500. but if this really applies to a vehicle you might be driving in GT4, you should run the 1/4 mile using both techniques and see which one is faster 👍
 
You basically want to shift into the power band of the next gear. Being in a higher rev range of the lower gear, will give you a good buffer to be in (or closer to) the sweet spot for the upshift.
 
You are getting the right idea, I believe. Your version of it is somewhat confusing to follow for me though.

Try this to see the difference between engines and shift points. Go take the Suzuki Cappuccino out, and do some 1000m acceleration runs, shifting at redline. Then try shifting at 7000 RPM. Then go take some Honda out there, like an S2000. And see where it likes to shift ;)

Also note their very different power curves.

In real life, my MR2 I shift around 8500 RPM. This is because its an engine that needs revs to make power, so peak power is around 7800-8000 RPM, and to stay in my power band, I need to shift right before the fuel cut. My Corolla on the other hand I shift a bit sooner when I am driving hard (no tach, so can't give exact numbers) But I can feel the Corolla move out of its powerband if I keep it in gear too long.

Another example is a guy I know with a US 240SX using the KA24DE. He shifts about 1000 RPMS before redline, because torque and power just die off rapidly beyond a certain point.

Basically, you have to fiddle with each car to find the best shift point. Generally though in import cars, closer to redline, if not BEYOND it, is better I have found, because of their high strung nature.
 


That's the graph produced by a rolling road at a show I went to in the summer. (Don't laugh at the tiny figures, it's a 14 year old standard (naturally aspirated) 1275cc Mini.) Peak torque is at 2600rpm, so the best place for me to shift up - assuming an approximate 1000rpm drop in between gear changes - is around 3500rpm (just shy of the peak hp output at 3750rpm). My car redlines at nearly 7000rpm, well away from the peak torque.

Hope that helps.
 
This one has been posted a number of times before (originally by Duke if I recall correctly), and is well worth a read.

It helps to clearly illustrate what is going on and how to determine the correct shift point for a particular car.

Horsepower vs Torque by Ed Lansinger


First, a clarification: torque is no more real than power. The DOHC puts out 133 ft-lb of ground-pounding torque, but I've seen some older Neons that are leaking torque and you have to avoid driving behind them because the torque, once leaked, is slippery. Don't bother picking it up and adding it to your engine as it degrades quickly and will take you out of Stock class. Consider torque and power as concepts used to describe how things interact to produce movement and how "energy" (another concept) is transferred.

Both torque and power can be observed "directly". Think of slowing a free-spinning tire with your hand. Feel the tug on your palm and the tension in your arm? That's a measure of torque, the torque the tire experiences as a result of your palm slowing it down. Feel the heat build up from friction? That's a measure of power.

Incidentally, water brake dynamometers get a direct measurement of power by measuring the increase in the temperature of water flowing past a propeller spun by the engine under test. You can solve for torque if you know engine RPM.


Maximum Acceleration vs Torque
I'd like to think that torque is an intuitively easier concept to understand. If that were true, though, then more people would understand the relationship between torque, horsepower, and vehicle acceleration. In reality, none of it is intuitive. If it were, Newton wouldn't be considered the Really Great Guy that he is.

The classic mistake is to conclude that the fastest way down, let's say, a 1/4 mile drag strip is to keep the engine RPM at the torque peak (or as close as possible). The technique is usually stated as "shift just after the torque peak", or "shift N RPM above the torque peak so you are N RPM below the torque peak in the next gear when you finish the shift".

Unfortunately, *engine* torque does not tell you the full story. What matters is the torque *delivered to the tires*, including the effects of the transmission. We all know a car does not accelerate as hard in second gear at peak torque RPM as it does in first gear. The transmission amplifies or multiplies the torque coming from the engine by a factor equal to the gear ratio. So to determine how much the car is accelerating at a particular instant, you have to know both the torque output of the engine as well as the gear ratio.

To figure out your shift points knowing only torque, generate tables of transmission output torque vs. RPM for each gear. To get transmission output torque, multiply the engine torque by the gear ratio. You are simply comparing gear to gear, so the final drive ratio can be ignored. You may also need to know the relationship between RPM in one gear and RPM in another gear (which is RPM * (gear2ratio/gear1ratio) at any particular vehicle speed.) Then it's easy to see what shift points to choose to maximize your transmission output torque at all times.

Here's an example for the 1999 Neon DOHC engine with a five-speed manual transmission. Before you flame, understand that I do not have an accurate torque curve for this motor. I'm estimating visually from the curve printed in the 1999 brochure, which is seriously flawed (it makes a lot more sense if the torque curve is shifted to the right 1000 RPM). I get:

Engine Transmission output torque (ft-lb):
Torque 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th
RPM (ft-lb) 3.54 2.13 1.36 1.03 0.72 <- gear ratio
---- ------- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
1000 50 177 107 68 52 36
1500 65 230 138 88 67 47
2000 80 283 170 109 82 58
2500 92 326 196 125 95 66
3000 104 368 222 141 107 75
3500 114 404 243 155 117 82
4000 120 425 256 163 124 86
4500 125 443 266 170 129 90
5000 130 460 277 177 134 94
5500* 133 471 283 181 137 96
6000 130 460 277 177 134 94
6500* 122 432 260 166 126 88
7000 110 389 234 150 113 79

(note: peak torque is at 5500 RPM, peak horsepower is at 6500 RPM)

Without graphing, there's something immediately apparent: in any gear, at 7000 RPM, the transmission torque output is always higher than at any RPM in the next gear up. What this means is, for this car:

* Shift at the redline, not at the torque peak!

Walk through an example. You're hammering down the track in 1st gear. Engine RPM is 6000, just past the engine's torque peak. Do you shift? Well, if you do, the engine will be pulled down to 3600 RPM, and 2nd gear will send 246 ft-lb of torque to the wheels (actually, to the differential first, which amplifies the torque by a constant factor and sends it to the wheels). Don't you think it would be better to hold it in first gear? Torque is dropping off, but it's still 389 ft-lb at 7000 RPM, right before the 7200 RPM redline. So, for this powertrain, first gear is *always* the best deal for acceleration, at any speed, except that you can't accelerate past the redline.

The 1-2 shift at 7200 RPM pulls the engine down to 4400 RPM, where 2nd will deliver 265 ft-lb of torque. Not only did you win by maintaining the high torque of 1st all the way to 7200 RPM, you are now better off in second gear.

Same thing goes for the 2-3 shift. 2nd gear output torque at the redline is still greater than 3rd gear output torque at any engine speed, so you wind her out as far as she'll go before you shift to 3rd. Same for the 3-4, same for the 4-5.

But, you ask, isn't your acceleration greatest at the torque peak? Yes, it is! But only within that gear. The next gear down will give you even greater acceleration at the same speed, unless the vehicle speed is too high for that gear.

To use engine torque to understand how your car performs, you MUST include the effects of the transmission.


Maximum Acceleration Vs. Power

OK, so what about power? As has been noted by a previous contributor, Power (hp) = Torque (ft-lb) * RPM / 5252. Note that power is also force * velocity, specifically:

Power (hp) = Force (lb) * Velocity (MPH) / 374

That's net horsepower, which is engine power minus losses like transmission and tire friction. The force is the sum of the longitudinal forces at the contact patches of the two driven tires.

Hmmm... P = F * V ...rearrange to get F = P / V ...

that means that you get the maximum force pushing the car if you maximize your *Power* at any given velocity. This gives us another useful rule:

* Shift to maximize engine POWER, not engine torque!

This is *exactly* the same as saying "shift to maximize transmission output torque". But it's a little easier to apply. Here's how.

Using the torque information above, I get the following power curve:

RPM HP
1000 10
1500 19
2000 30
2500 44
3000 59
3500 76
4000 91
4500 107
5000 124
5500 139 (peak torque)
6000 149
6500 151 (peak power)
7000 147

The tires don't see quite these numbers due to [friction and aerodynamic] losses, but I'm going to assume that the losses are comparable from gear to gear and that the overall shape of the power curve remains the same.

Applying the maximum power rule, we'd like to race down the 1/4 mile with the engine always as close to 6500 RPM as possible. If we had a continuously variable transmission, the lowest E.T. would be achieved by keeping the engine dead on 6500 RPM. 5500 is not the best; at any vehicle speed, the engine would put out more torque but the transmission will have a less advantageous gear ratio, so you get a net loss of force to the tires. Apply P = F * V or P = T * RPM to prove this.

Since the Neon doesn't have a CVT, we have to shift. The shift points are pretty easy to determine. In fact, you don't really need to know anything about the gear ratios of the different gears, which is why power is sometimes easier to understand than torque.

I'm going to assume that the DOHC puts out at least 145 horsepower at the redline (7200 RPM). Shifting at the redline in each gear should drag the engine down as follows:


shift RPM drop Horsepower change

- ----- ---------- ------------------
1->2 7200->4700 145->114
2->3 7200->4600 145->110
3->4 7200->5500 145->139
4->5 7200->5000 145->124

(I derived this, but all you really need to do is drive the car, shift, and find out where the motor lands)

Note - and this is important - the transmission does not amplify power.

Power in = power out, minus losses
(which are low for a manual transmission).

This is predicted by the law of conservation of energy.

Is 7200 the correct shift point? It would *not* be the correct shift point if the engine was making more power in the new gear than the old gear. That would mean that you should have shifted earlier. But in this case, the power output at redline is always greater than the power output after the shift. So it's the best performance you can get.

A more rigorous way of doing this is to graph horsepower vs. velocity in each of the gears. If power in one gear drops below the horsepower of the next gear at a particular MPH, then that MPH is where you should shift, otherwise shift at the redline.

I leave as an exercise for the reader the following: predicting shift points based on engine torque, RPM, and gear ratio gives the same results as predicting shift points based on power and vehicle velocity.
Exceptions
Source - http://www.allpar.com/eek/hp-vs-torque.html

Regards

Scaff
 
...In the case of my SOHC VW 2.0L 8V Jetta, I usually have to short-shift the car in most situations. The fuel tends to cut-off just before the posted redline of the tach, so normally I shift just over 6200 RPM (Redline at about 6800) if I'm running her hard. High RPMs on the old 2.0L are pretty much just noise, as most of the power (or, thats the way it feels to me) is all in the middle.
 
What about cars that like to rev as much as they like to turn (such as big-block muscle cars)? For example, not having driven anything with an engine larger than 345 cubic inches that isn't saddled to an automatic, in GT4 cars like the Chevelle SS454 like to be short-shifted around 2000 RPM short of the redline.
 
Most guys I know wont run a rat engine up to redline. A mighty-mouse 302, 327, or 350 will do it just fine... But anything bigger than a 396 wouldn't want to do it. Its not that it can't, but it just isn't made to spin that quickly.
 
You want to keep your motor making as much power as possible to get the best acceleration. You should shift either when it gets you more power, or when you get to redline, whichever comes first.

Typically the engineers have done all the work for you with the engine development and transmission gearing, such that you just want to shift at redline. Well, I guess I shouldn't say typically,most of my experience is with sportier cars/motorcycles.
 
My car's peak power is right at the redline, so that's where I shift if I'm going for the quick acceleration.

I can feel it, too, which is fun. As it goes from 4K to 6K, I can feel the extra power pushing me further back into the seat. Not very hard, though.. hehe. My little four-banger tops out at 150hp. :)
 
You want to keep your motor making as much power as possible to get the best acceleration. You should shift either when it gets you more power, or when you get to redline, whichever comes first.

Typically the engineers have done all the work for you with the engine development and transmission gearing, such that you just want to shift at redline. Well, I guess I shouldn't say typically,most of my experience is with sportier cars/motorcycles.

Exactly. Simple and to the point.

Even if you run an engine past its power peak, you aren't "losing" acceleration until the amount of power available drops below what you could get at the RPM you would start at in the next gear...if that makes any sense.
 
I had always thought the perfect shift was how duke explained it in the beginning, but I never really tried to see if it was true. It's kinda cool knowing that I thought of this before I knew about it.:)
 
Depends on your gearing as well. If you're purely going for a 0-60 time, and your 2nd gear tops out at 63mph, then it's probably better to run it all the way to the red line and pass the power peak, because you'll lose much more time with the extra gear change then you'll gain from shifting again.
 
Most guys I know wont run a rat engine up to redline. A mighty-mouse 302, 327, or 350 will do it just fine... But anything bigger than a 396 wouldn't want to do it. Its not that it can't, but it just isn't made to spin that quickly.

My dad's buddy has a 1969 COPO Camaro, with the 427. He had the limiter set at 7000rpm, and the damn thing loves it. He rarely runs it hard, but that time he did with me in it, the thing was still pulling like hell way up there. I don't know about a HEMI, but that 427 revs like a 'Busa. Yeah, you said "most guys", but it's still pretty rare to find and ol dengine that bg revving over 6K.

And Casio, you're right about that. So many magazine tests have been won or lost all because of annoying gear ratios. Solution? Huge torque and a monster 1st gear, a la Viper and GT. You could cruise th innercity highway in 1st the whole way. They shift to second at 61 or 62.
 
Even if you run an engine past its power peak, you aren't "losing" acceleration until the amount of power available drops below what you could get at the RPM you would start at in the next gear...if that makes any sense.

Yup. If you had the data, you can do a plot of engine power vs. road speed with a curve for each gear on it, which is nice because the points where the curves intersect is where you want to shift. Although the only time I've done this the curves didn't intersect, because the motor hit redline before the point where it made sense to shift power wise. But like I said I think you will find that is normally the case.
 
Scaff brought the perfect explanation. You can forget about (peak) power, cause hp is only a number calculated from torque and revs. What actually matters is the torque, because it says how much pulling power the engine actually provides. Take the torque and the gear ratios, and you can calculate how much power you actually get at the wheels for every gear and every rev number, which determines your acceleration. Make a chart, and then you can easily see where to shift in which gear: the point you get more torque at the wheels in next gear compared to the gear you're in - it's as simple as that.

Regards
the Interceptor
 
So from reading the posts this is what I am thinking. Just say when you change gear you have to drop 1000rpm and peak power is at 6000rpm, and you have the same power at 5000 and 7000. If you shift at 6000, you will drop to 5000 which is outside the powerband? and it takes longer to get back up to 6000. If you shift at 6500 and then drop to 5500, you are inside the powerband and therefore don't have to wait to get back in and then change??? yes, no, maybe?
YES! That's exactly what I'm saying. You're sacrificing a little power by going past the peak before shifting, but you're gaining it back at the bottom of the next gear up, because you are closer to the power peak. And, in fact, because the gearing is taller in the higher gear and so you'e not putting as much acceleration force to the wheels, you're actually doing better than breaking even because you are removing some of the disadvantage caused by the change up. So that makes it more complicated than simply saying "shift X rpm above the peak so that you are Y rpm below it after you shift."

What counts for acceleration is the torque that's reaching the wheels, not the engine output shaft torque. Engine torque times gear ratio equals wheel torque. Since final drive ratio is the same for all gears, we can ignore it as a variable, but it would be included in the GR number.

ET x GR = WT

Wheel torque is basically equivalent to the power of the engine - not horsepower, but the physics meaning of 'power': how much work the engine will do. To really determine optimum shift points, you need to know all the gear ratios and the engine power at different RPM intervals. Running the calculation above for each gear at, say, 500rpm intervals, will give you a chart of the wheel torque in each gear at each step in the rev range.

Code:
Engine     Transmission output torque (ft-lb):
       Torque      1st     2nd     3rd     4th     5th
 RPM  (ft-lb)     3.54    2.13    1.36    1.03    0.72  <- gear ratio
----    -----     ----    ----    ----    ----    ----
1000       50      177     107      68      52      36
1500       65      230     138      88      67      47
2000       80      283     170     109      82      58
2500       92      326     196     125      95      66
3000      104      368     222     141     107      75
3500      114      404     243     155     117      82
4000      120      425     256     163     124      86
4500      125      443     266     170     129      90
5000      130      460     277     177     134      94
5500      133      471     283     181     137      96  <- ENGINE TORQUE PEAK
6000      130      460     277     177     134      94
6500      122      432     260     166     126      88
7000      110      389     234     150     113      79

Then, it's a matter of making sure that you're maximizing power output (transmission torque output) by selecting the best combination of numbers from your chart for before and after each shift.

Look at the redline RPM - in this case (based on the engine power curve of a DOHC Neon), the wheel torque output is ALWAYS higher at redline than it is for any RPM in the next gear up. This means you want to hold the lower gear all the way up until the redline - until you are forced to shift up. For another car with a different engine/transmission combo, this might not be true. If the wheel torque at redline is lower than it would be at the entry RPM of the next gear up, you should have shifted earlier.

Hopefully this makes it more clear.
 
That chart is kinda what I was talking about doing, except a little harder to use. If you just take the power data you got off the dyno and plot it, changing engine rpms to road speed in each gear, you'll get a plot that clearly shows you where to shift in each gear.
 
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