Releasing formulas and drift theory

  • Thread starter GhostZ
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GhostZ

GhostZ

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The__Ghost__Z
This summer I will complete and release a comprehensive set of formulas and tuning methods that I've developed these last two years, some of which the community has followed and some of which has yet to be revealed. This is because I won't be drifting seriously anymore, I think I have exhausted GT5 and its community and I doubt I will be on GT6.

Ask any last minute questions you might have about my drifting theory that I would want to answer during the final release. After I have a good idea of how to organize it (there's a lot of information) I'll give it out in a friendly-to-use format. This will include a small booklet about drifting and tuning in general, a very large excel spreadsheet to calculate tuning values, and an explanation of the calculations.

Now, while these things won't be enough that any idiot can just plug numbers in and go, it will be enough that anyone who just spends a little bit of time should be able to learn from them, and a lot more accessible than my threads and writing has been so far. Since I'm not drifting anymore, I feel no reason to hold this back. I'm hoping that when I do this, the community will grow past vagueness and 'feel', and offer advice based around the actual numbers that create that 'feel'.

I planned to release this at the end of the summer or perhaps next year, but I don't think I will be continuing my tuning garage (though I did learn a bit of new stuff from it) and thus, it's better served as free to the community to share.

EDIT: See this post for the full data sheet, and I hope someone else completes it given what I started: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/releasing-formulas-and-drift-theory.283919/#post-8910963
 
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I don't know what to say, I'm happy you will share your research :) but at the same time, I am confused, why would you leave GT5 drifting ... GT6 should not be missed IMO, the new physics, tire, suspension and aero models should make your formulas easier to migrate :D
 
Yes but just because it's going to be easier to migrate doesn't mean that all of the formula sheets and such he made will be applicable to GT6, even then he will have to spend a considerable amount of time recalculating these formulas because of all these new changes implemented.

In the meantime it'll be interesting to see all the research that he's done for GT5.
 
I'm certainly going to enjoy reading this when it's released and running some of my cars through the method.

@GhostZ: I understand why you wanted to keep it private to begin with, since you've obviously put a lot of work into it (I'm guessing a couple of hundred hours?). In the long run though, I think releasing it is a good move. A lot of people were asking for "proof" of your method in your early threads - well here it is for people to try. (I'm not implying you've been pressured into releasing this or anything - it seems like quite the opposite case if you're basically finished with GT5!)

It's a shame you don't think you'll be on GT6. Are you moving to another sim like rFactor by chance?

Personally, and this is a general comment, I hope that a lot of people look at Ghost's tuning method, and it gathers some attention.

My main reason for saying this is not to see if people think it "works" or not, but because it will hopefully show that there are people who have an interest in the detail and underlying physics of tuning, for drift/grip/whatever purpose. In the (unlikely?) event that PD see a thread like this, perhaps it will advertise to them that people find this sort of thing important.

A point I have gone on about in several threads is GT5's lack of detailed telemetry. I'm sure that in developing this model, Ghost has done a fair amount of image analysis from replay mode to measure roll angles etc etc (I think one of his earlier threads actually described this method). It's a shame that people have to go to such lengths, rather than just consulting an in-game readout! Anyone that has been here a while will have seen the whole "is the suspension backwards?" debate on the tuning forum. Well, with decent telemetry, that whole debate may have been solved rather quickly, or might never have arisen in the first place.

Cheers,

Bread
 
Knight Spirit
Yeah this is great and all, but why have you made a thread telling us you're going to release it? Why not just release it?
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This is a place to ask questions and for me to gauge (based on responses) how I should organize the information. There's a lot of it.
 
I'm interested to see this. But why got to all the hassle of making formulas when you can just tune by feel like the rest of us. I'm not trying to disrespect you I'm just asking a question.
 
I'd like to see some major tips on tuning the premium Ford Mustang GT. I feel like I have to go through every single gear just to get a decent drift going on. And I feel like it lacks power to get it to slide out a bit.
 
CallmeDan
I'd like to see some major tips on tuning the premium Ford Mustang GT. And I feel like it lacks power to get it to slide out a bit.
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Lacks power, if you think the Mustang lacks power I'd suggest you go Top fuel drag racing as they might just be powerful enough for you. Mustang has more than enough power & a shed load of useable torque (which is more important for breaking traction). I dont like the Mustang but even stock its a car that can easily get sideways & stay there so with a good tune & driver would be a good drift car.
 
LERK84
Lacks power, if you think the Mustang lacks power I'd suggest you go Top fuel drag racing as they might just be powerful enough for you. Mustang has more than enough power & a shed load of useable torque (which is more important for breaking traction). I dont like the Mustang but even stock its a car that can easily get sideways & stay there so with a good tune & driver would be a good drift car.
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he should try the Option Stream Z if he wants more power
 
For the love of baby jebus!! Tune a chaser or a S14a and post settings. Or pm settings to say... Lerk hes impartial....

Ive only ever seen one car move like its perfect and thats streetos chaser two years ago!!
Mine was good but not like his so I asked him... Tune mine?? and you know what he did!!! Cost me £2489 Though :-/

So why do you find it so hard??
 
The Mustang GT has a live rear axle suspension. That's all you need to remember, and yes, GT5 does model that.

You have to remember that the brand, style, power, or weight of a car does not determine how it drives/drifts. It's how a number of factors (including weight and power, but with tens more unique parts of the car) all interact. And that's still assuming you're a perfect driver.

I've got some time this weekend to sit down and work on the excel sheet. I plan to make it a tutorial-esque spreadsheet that explains each equation, and shows you through an example car (which you can edit) how the formulas translate to the real game. I will release that first, and then build on it and hopefully, as I find time this summer, release a comprehensive written guide. The spreadsheet will let you enter any car you are comfortable with, take settings from another car, and show you similar/optional values to approach with your tuning that won't be difficult to drift given your setup before using the equations. Sort of a 'baby steps' way to get drifters to adapt their style to faster, more angle, and more controlled drifting. I won't include the Vector Theory however, that is still being finished.

This thread is just a gathering place for ideas and opinions about what people need more of. I also hope that others can build on this, especially going into GT6. ...as for me GT6, we will see. It will be a while before I make the switch, if I ever do. I've been through the GT5 team scene, competition scene, loner scene, I've taught many drifters and taken more than a few accounts over the few years. I just don't get the same thrill out of it, even when I use a very slow car. It's not challenging, but is still a large time commitment for me. I want to transition to more real-life racing in my life now.
 
Reddee
I'm interested to see this. But why got to all the hassle of making formulas when you can just tune by feel like the rest of us. I'm not trying to disrespect you I'm just asking a question.
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By making formulas, I think there is a better chance for more people to be welcomed in the community. Though tunes are usually separate's a person respectively aside from Drifting style. I don't see why he can't make one entire thread, reserve some post(s) and edit those post later. It would be easier to link and deletes the hassle of finding various threads.
 
The Mustang GT has a live rear axle suspension. That's all you need to remember, and yes, GT5 does model that.
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This bit interests me.... did you look at dynamic camber behaviour (or lack of!) to figure this out?

Also, some tuning guides e.g. MCH's say that spring rates behave the opposite of IRL i.e. typically stiffening rear springs produces understeer in GT5, when IRL oversteer would be expected. I've observed this mucking around with an Isuzu Piazza recently. Do you think the springs are programmed wrongly?

Your live axle comment got me thinking (the Piazza has one as far as I know)... I'm wondering if some of these "reverse spring rate effects" could be a manifestation of something else with the suspension geometry/dynamic camber, if different geometries are modelled as you say.

Cheers,

Bread
 
bread82
This bit interests me.... did you look at dynamic camber behaviour (or lack of!) to figure this out?

Also, some tuning guides e.g. MCH's say that spring rates behave the opposite of IRL i.e. typically stiffening rear springs produces understeer in GT5, when IRL oversteer would be expected. I've observed this mucking around with an Isuzu Piazza recently. Do you think the springs are programmed wrongly?

Your live axle comment got me thinking (the Piazza has one as far as I know)... I'm wondering if some of these "reverse spring rate effects" could be a manifestation of something else with the suspension geometry/dynamic camber, if different geometries are modelled as you say.

Cheers,

Bread
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he might think you're "not reading his comment"
 
Yeh Ghostz. Something like this would definitely help a rookie like me with better understanding of the finer details. But please bro. Don't leave, guys like me have a ton to learn from from guys like you... Be it tuning or technique. Dont go
 
Better post it soon... Not rushing, but I'm getting restless wiating for this to come out so I can read it. I don't formulate, I just do the driving and GT5-developed instincts do the rest. Haha.
 
LPTuner
Better post it soon... Not rushing, but I'm getting restless wiating for this to come out so I can read it. I don't formulate, I just do the driving and GT5-developed instincts do the rest. Haha.
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It's already out... and it's really not worth downloading.
 
Everyone has their own style though,i understand how it may help rookies but i believe everyone should adapt their own methods of style to drift.
 
While my original intention was to release a fully, completed, usable program at the end of summer, I have since completely stopped playing GT5 and focused on more important projects in my life. As such, the data is not finished for other people. Toe angles and LSD settings have not been put in, but I've released enough information on this site that someone should be able to derive them.

Toe angles are the easiest, take the weight distribution during cornering and overlay that over a vector of the tires individual angle and the angle of the car's desired path of travel. The best toe angle for peak drifting performance is the angle that has the least sum of the variation of the four wheels from their path of travel, times the four weights over each wheel during cornering. For maximum entry speed, do the same for cornering + braking, and for exit, do the same for cornering + accelerating. The overall average should be the ideal angle.

For the LSD, which tends to be largely a matter of taste, take the amount of grip each rear wheel has (from the weight, variation of the toe from path of travel, and variation of camber from body roll) and split the torque by that amount to make the wheels grip as one, and spin as one. That won't help you with entry or exit however, and even an ideal LSD setting assumes perfect throttle control, which is a point that is worth far more to improve. Obviously this means that the LSD setting that gets the most power to the ground evenly (resulting in both more smoke and less necessary power to spin the wheels) will have a higher initial torque as the weight and power goes up at the same rate, and a higher acceleration setting as the grip differential goes up (as influenced by poor camber and toe angles, high body roll, or high weight). Deceleration settings work the same, but that's only if you want to grip best while braking. For a braking entry, a low deceleration setting that gets the inside slowing down faster, will aid in the car's rotation. This means that to produce this entry rotation, you want a decel setting that is proportionally lower than the accel setting based on the width of the car and tire. The rest of the factors that affect the ideal setting for decel also affect accel, so it should follow the same pattern there.

That being said, all of the data is there, but you'll have to hunt and decipher it because I don't want to spend 30+ hours making it look any prettier. There's still some (my own personal Toe and LSD settings and my own personal sheet that I used) that I don't want to release because of its presentation, but very few of my equations are not in the file I've included with this post. I'll update the first post as well.

I encourage you guys to play around with what I started and try to make a working document for the full community, and hopefully carry it on to GT6.

Have fun drifting.
 

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