Remove all Invisible Walls, including Rally and Course Creator Tracks

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vspectra06
vspectra06
Invisible walls are really immersion breaking in the racing genre. Gran Turismo is still the only modern racing game forcing these limitations on fans and players and it's not realistic at all, especially on rally courses. Most other games allow freedom of movement in the environment, and sets penalties or force reset the car back to the track if it goes out too far from the road. Real life doesn't have invisible walls, neither should Gran Turismo.

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Willow Springs is the only track in Gran Turismo 6 without invisible walls, and it's great to play on. All GT tracks with an open driving path should have this level of freedom in practice race, and during competitive races just set penalties and force reset the car back to the track.

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All games have some sort of wall stopping you from leaving the track. If you go off the track on any DiRT game, you get reset. GT & Forza (and most other racing games) have solid walls. Why would you even want to leave the track anyway in a track based racing game? If you want to explore why not buy The Crew or Forza Horizon 2
 
The reason why invisible walls exist in games is because they're just video games. They're not and will never be equal to real life. Because it's obviously impossible to render the whole world for a video game, it would take up so much memory and so much disk space that it's aan absolute waste. I fail to see your point. One of the main reasons why invisible walls are put up in because is to allow developers to focus on the more important aspects of the video game. Your "suggestion" has the words "didn't think this through" all over it.
 
I'm 100% for invisible walls being removed. Having them makes a mockery of the game as it's supposed to be a sim, & slamming into an invisible wall doesn't simulate anything in reality that I'm aware of! Good point about Willow Springs, goes to show that it can be done, even on a PS3.

However, I disagree about reset to track or any other fantasy penalties, they shouldn't be in a sim either. If you go off track & can't find your way back, tough, learn the track & try again. The time you'll waste is penalty enough, & is realistic to boot.
 
VBR
However, I disagree about reset to track or any other fantasy penalties, they shouldn't be in a sim either. If you go off track & can't find your way back, tough, learn the track & try again. The time you'll waste is penalty enough, & is realistic to boot.

But then that would encourage annoying pricks to abuse cheating by cutting corners and such, because there are no more "fantasy penalties" imposed. The only way to counter this is to, for example make the sand pits like those in real life; once you dived into them, you can't get it. But then that would annoy a lot of people.
 
But then that would encourage annoying pricks to abuse cheating by cutting corners and such, because there are no more "fantasy penalties" imposed. The only way to counter this is to, for example make the sand pits like those in real life; once you dived into them, you can't get it. But then that would annoy a lot of people.
There could be an option to enable/disable the 'reset to track' penalty. That way, everyone will be happy.
 
There could be an option to enable/disable the 'reset to track' penalty. That way, everyone will be happy.

Not so. Some people will complain that it really shouldn't be there at all. They keep forgetting that there is an "ignore" option to things that could be made optional/turned on or off. People who think they know more than what the devs do.
 
@=drifting24/7= I've run many online lobbies for the past 6 years in Gran Turismo, & after asking people to drive clean, 99.999% of them do in my experience. The removal of all invsible walls will therefore not cause any problems. On tracks where there are none, like Willow Sprngs, I've never seen anyone taking advantage of them, & I always run with penalties off.
 
I support the suggestion.

It is not about realism as much as the feeling that you're not driving inside enclosed space, but on open circuit. If I'm not mistaken, newly introduced scenario in Track Maker known as Death Valley doesn't allow you to go away from tarmac sections, which I find disturbing. The same applies for Genki's TXR2 game, if anyone remembers. Some point-to-point tracks would have an open surroundings around the course, on which you couldn't drive because guardrails (invisible if not metal) would enclose the entire track. That made me feel as I'm 'trapped' inside the course.

I wouldn't ask for miles of open, unused area; few meters from driving section is more than enough to cause illusion of freedom. Besides, if you place invisible walls on tracks where open surroundings is present, what separates such tracks from usual city tracks?

Another argument: when you know you can accidentally touch nearby grass, sand or gravel, you tend to drive more carefully. On city courses such feelings become suppressed because deep inside you know you can wall-ride in case of emergency, without causing any damage to your lap times.
 
All games have some sort of wall stopping you from leaving the track. If you go off the track on any DiRT game, you get reset. GT & Forza (and most other racing games) have solid walls. Why would you even want to leave the track anyway in a track based racing game? If you want to explore why not buy The Crew or Forza Horizon 2

Being reset to the track isn't an invisible wall. No other racing game has invisible walls right next to the tarmac like Gran Turismo does. And why would I want to play arcade games that don't have GT's physics? I'm saying if I accidentally overshoot a turn, I don't want the car to ram into an invisible wall as if I'm driving in an invisible tunnel. It's incredibly immersion breaking.

Dirt Rally
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Gran Turismo 6
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The reason why invisible walls exist in games is because they're just video games. They're not and will never be equal to real life. Because it's obviously impossible to render the whole world for a video game, it would take up so much memory and so much disk space that it's aan absolute waste. I fail to see your point. One of the main reasons why invisible walls are put up in because is to allow developers to focus on the more important aspects of the video game. Your "suggestion" has the words "didn't think this through" all over it.

Bro you should play more racing games and actually read the OP, I'm not asking for an open world Gran Turismo. After that then maybe you can go back to being an armchair analyst, but news flash - invisible walls aren't put up to "focus on more important aspects;" it's put up to prevent players from going out of the boundaries the developers set up; in GT's case, they're still clinging on to Playstation 1 limitations and gameplay design.
 
VBR
However, I disagree about reset to track or any other fantasy penalties, they shouldn't be in a sim either. If you go off track & can't find your way back, tough, learn the track & try again. The time you'll waste is penalty enough, & is realistic to boot.

So if I fell into the ravine in, say, GT4 version of Grand Canyon, "permanent death" applies? :confused:
 
Being reset to the track isn't an invisible wall. No other racing game has invisible walls right next to the tarmac like Gran Turismo does. And why would I want to play arcade games that don't have GT's physics? I'm saying if I accidentally overshoot a turn, I don't want the car to ram into an invisible wall as if I'm driving in an invisible tunnel. It's incredibly immersion breaking.

Bro you should play more racing games and actually read the OP, I'm not asking for an open world Gran Turismo. After that then maybe you can go back to being an armchair analyst, but news flash - invisible walls aren't put up to "focus on more important aspects;" it's put up to prevent players from going out of the boundaries the developers set up; in GT's case, they're still clinging on to Playstation 1 limitations and gameplay design.

I think you're missing the point mate. They can't just delete the invisible walls and let you drive anywhere, as they haven't modeled any collision detection outside of those walls, you'd just fall through the level. Adding the collision and making sure it all works would be a waste of system memory that could be used elsewhere. This is why other games that don't use invisible walls use the force reset to track method, so you can literally never get far enough away from the track to fall through the environment.

I wouldn't care if PD switched from the invisible wall method of imposing boundaries, or the force reset method, but I don't see how you can say a car magically appearing back on the track is any more realistic, or breaks the immersion any less, than having invisible walls. They are both unrealistic, and artificial ways of imposing limits on where you can go.
 
There should at least be enough runoff to put 2 wheels into the dirt... and not bounce off the invisible wall. Use the actual barriers, Armco or even the mile markers in the Death Valley theme.
 
Bro you should play more racing games and actually read the OP, I'm not asking for an open world Gran Turismo. After that then maybe you can go back to being an armchair analyst, but news flash - invisible walls aren't put up to "focus on more important aspects;" it's put up to prevent players from going out of the boundaries the developers set up; in GT's case, they're still clinging on to Playstation 1 limitations and gameplay design.

I think you're missing the point mate. They can't just delete the invisible walls and let you drive anywhere, as they haven't modeled any collision detection outside of those walls, you'd just fall through the level. Adding the collision and making sure it all works would be a waste of system memory that could be used elsewhere. This is why other games that don't use invisible walls use the force reset to track method, so you can literally never get far enough away from the track to fall through the environment.

I wouldn't care if PD switched from the invisible wall method of imposing boundaries, or the force reset method, but I don't see how you can say a car magically appearing back on the track is any more realistic, or breaks the immersion any less, than having invisible walls. They are both unrealistic, and artificial ways of imposing limits on where you can go.

^^ This is what I meant by "focus on more important aspects". That's the other purpose of invisible walls, in case your mind hasn't realized that already. You already said it yourself, this is to prevent people from going off the rendered track and falling through the level (pointed out in underline). Because developers don't like to waste time and effort on things that aren't really the focus of what they're doing. Gran Turismo is a, news flash - a TRACK-BASED RACING GAME. And thus, the people playing it are supposed to drive ON THE TRACK THE DEVS MADE, not off of them. They only program and render what they need to, nothing else. Bro, you should stay off of these forums for a while and actually spend some time watching videos about how games like these are actually made. Then maybe you could do us all a favor and be rid of your ignorance.

I'm sorry mate, "still clinging on to Playstation 1 limitations and game design"? What did you expect the PS3 to be, a computing machine that's all-powerful and has no limits? Any machine or gaming console that comes out will always have limits. Whatever game comes out of any console will always have limitations. Devs can only do so much with the tools they have. You're like those spoiled brats who complains that PS3 graphics are crap, because, news flash again - it's an 8-year-old hardware. Which is obviously outdated by today's standards. You seriously can't expect a PS3 to shell out graphics and game engine design that would be on par with games that are using the latest tech.

I have played some other racing games in the past, and I don't need to play any more of them just to see your point, because you just don't get it. And also, what @Mike_grpA said (pointed out in bold), adding the extra collision is a complete waste of time because it requires hell of a lot more work, which is unnecessary. The work and time that would be put into the extraneous collision detection could be used elsewhere, like, say, refining physics or modeling more cars and tracks.

VBR
@=drifting24/7= I've run many online lobbies for the past 6 years in Gran Turismo, & after asking people to drive clean, 99.999% of them do in my experience. The removal of all invsible walls will therefore not cause any problems. On tracks where there are none, like Willow Sprngs, I've never seen anyone taking advantage of them, & I always run with penalties off.

I don't mean to be rude, but I'll be frank. I honestly don't care when people say they [most of the time] experience clean and fair racing, because let's face it, that's now what everyone does. My experiences are different from yours. Take for example, the Quick Race events. I remember that 500PP S:S race at Trial Mountain, wherein most players cut the last chicane just before the start/finish line. How about it, then? Can you ask those players to drive clean every time? Of course not.
 
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I think you're missing the point mate. They can't just delete the invisible walls and let you drive anywhere, as they haven't modeled any collision detection outside of those walls, you'd just fall through the level. Adding the collision and making sure it all works would be a waste of system memory that could be used elsewhere. This is why other games that don't use invisible walls use the force reset to track method, so you can literally never get far enough away from the track to fall through the environment.

Environment collision detection really isn't resource intensive. As long as there's actual track geometry, which there is, it'd be easy just to have the car model drive over it. The force reset in other games isn't to prevent the car from falling into the environment, it's a gameplay design to help you get back on track and not lose the race because you ventured too far off and have no way of getting back on track without resetting.

I wouldn't care if PD switched from the invisible wall method of imposing boundaries, or the force reset method, but I don't see how you can say a car magically appearing back on the track is any more realistic, or breaks the immersion any less, than having invisible walls. They are both unrealistic, and artificial ways of imposing limits on where you can go.

There's a big difference between hitting an invisible barrier right next to the road, versus being reset because you traveled literally hundreds of metres off road. You don't get reset in most other games just because you ventured some metres away from the tarmac.
 
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The reason why invisible walls exist in games is because they're just video games. They're not and will never be equal to real life.
Might as well not bother simulating anything then.

Because it's obviously impossible to render the whole world for a video game, it would take up so much memory and so much disk space that it's aan absolute waste.
The work and time that would be put into the extraneous collision detection could be used elsewhere, like, say, refining physics or modeling more cars and tracks.
How much "disk space" does collision data and ground textures take up for a section of track that (as part of the area already generated for the track editor even when it isn't used) already has collision data and textures? How many track graphic artists work on the physics engine? How many car modelers work on the collision data for tracks?

Please, rid us of our ignorance on these matters.
 
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Please, rid us of our ignorance on these matters.

With pleasure.

Might as well not bother simulating anything then.

Please tell me you're trolling.

That's like saying flight simulators should have actual passengers in them as well, and that everytime you crash, you should hear the yells and screams of horror that go along with it.

If the current state and technology of "simulators" disappoints you in every single way, then forget about them and do the real thing instead. Drive a car. Fly an airplane. Crash and burn in blazing glory on both as you see fit.

How much "disk space" does collision data and ground textures take up for a section of track that (as part of the area already generated for the track editor even when it isn't used) already has collision data and textures?

First of all, you combined two completely separate arguments. I was talking about disk space when rendering the open world (including textures), not the collision detection. And with regards to collision detection, that one is more memory-intensive than disk space-intensive. The memory that would be used for extraneous collision detection when going off some 50 meters off of the track could be used to render more cars in the field instead, which a lot of people prefer. And if we're talking about Course Maker and its poorly-implemented invisible walls and collision detection, I can only suspect that PD has not programmed it yet or not programmed it properly yet for reason we can only speculate.

How many track graphic artists work on the physics engine? How many car modelers work on the collision data for tracks?

Not much, apparently. Which is why PD was on a hiring spree last month, and which could also be the reason why Kaz passed on this year's 24H Nurburgring race. The most likely reason for this is that PD is working around the clock (not that it's news or anything) on GT7.
 
Please tell me you're trolling.
Any trolling you see is simply a reflection of the logic you've already used in this thread to try to shut down the OP's feature request.

If the current state and technology of "simulators" disappoints you in every single way, then forget about them and do the real thing instead.
"The current state of technology of 'simulators'" already has something like what the OP is talking about in this exact game; and it was fairly widely publicized by PD in the leadup to the release date of this exact game. This only leads me to further believe that you're simply trying to continue moving the goalposts to hit an argument that might work after you blatantly misread what the OP was saying with your first post.


I was talking about disk space when rendering the open world (including textures), not the collision detection.
So you're referring to the disk space that is:
1: Already used for the most obvious use of the thing the OP talked about, because the track creator generates the track overlaid over an environment that is already in the game and most of the rest of the tracks are fully enclosed.
2: Is in huge abundance, because GT6 came nowhere near filling up the Blu-Ray disk it shipped on just like GT5 didn't before and GT7 will ship on a system with at minimum a 500GB hard drive.
3: Is treated as superfluous by PD in pretty much every other context, since up to this point they have been perfectly content loading the player up with hundreds of megabytes worth of "more important aspects" like intro videos of cars for cars that are also in that patch anyway. There isn't a track in the game that would "waste" as much disk space as the 100 second 1080p tribute video they originally shoved into the 980 MB Ayrton Senna patch.


And with regards to collision detection, that one is more memory-intensive than disk space-intensive. The memory that would be used for extraneous collision detection when going off some 50 meters off of the track could be used to render more cars in the field instead, which a lot of people prefer.
That's strange:

I would think an area on a track behind an invisible wall would be the definition of "extraneous collision detection," and yet there it is. Not only is it fully driveable and mapped to the track environment a good hundred yards outside of the track boundary before the collision flattens, but it also has the offroad properties applied to it in correct areas. Someone should have told the track asset creators to not do that, so they could have had 16 car races at that track...



Oh.


And I have to ask, how much more do you think needs to be kept in memory as far as collision data goes for a 6.2 mile long course maker track (as, again, the most obvious example) to have 50 meters of runoff space that isn't exceeded in memory used when GT6 is running the 15.7 mile long Nurburgring 24 hour course?

Not much, apparently.
The correct answer is "none". Graphic designers, who are the ones who would be making the tracks, have little to do with the people who program the physic engines. So, no, someone spending time adding textures to a runoff area of a track is not someone who could have gone on to make the physics engine better. And someone who would normally be tasked with modelling cars likely also isn't someone who would be working on the track collision areas or even be the one who worked on the tracks. No matter how many more physics engine programmers or car modelers they hire, that will remain the case because modern game development studios don't hire people to do everything.



Perhaps you should try watching those videos you advise others to see.
 
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You can go off track for a bit in gt games if you glitch outside the walls, but then you fal through the level, and while you are able to drive, your car glitches through the ground, and through everything else like trees and buildings. There is rudimentary collision with the ground extending out from the invisible walls, but it's very basic in most cases.

I also disagree that games that force reset don't do it to prevent the player getting to where there's less/no collision detail. If there was no limit to what had properly modeled collision, they would allow you to drive on it, and you would reset your own car if you wanted/needed to get back to track. Games like the DiRT games have a button assigned to reset your car, and also force reset when you go about 20 - 30 metres off track.

In any case, my original point was that there's no point wasting time and resources on making it possible for you to drive where ever you wanted beyond the track limits in a track racing sim. I see from those course maker vids that the invisible walls are ridiculously close to the tarmac, and I see the point that they should at least render some off track parts to the ribbon in course maker tracks, but that's not the same as "we should be able to drive anywhere off road". Should PD fully render the town of Bathurst outside of the Mt. Panorama circuit so we can go for a drive down to the shops?
 
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You can go off track for a bit in gt games if you glitch outside the walls, but then you fal through the level, and while you are able to drive, your car glitches through the ground, and through everything else like trees and buildings. There is rudimentary collision with the ground extending out from the invisible walls, but it's very basic in most cases.
The track collision extending out from the invisible walls in the video above is very clearly extensively modeled, to the point of having different road surfaces for different areas, and the collision stops from the track at a distance long beyond any racing game I've played with an automatic reset.


Should PD fully render the town of Bathurst outside of the Mt. Panorama circuit so we can go for a drive down to the shops?
I believe Bathurst falls under a "fully enclosed track", so your sarcasm (while a laugh riot) doesn't mean anything as a piece of satire.
 
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I believe Bathurst falls under a "fully enclosed track", so your sarcasm (while a laugh riot) doesn't mean anything as a piece of satire.

Enclosed because PD modeled some tyres in the access roads. So you'd be fine with replacing all invisible walls with barriers? I quite clearly said I wouldn't care if PD replaced invisible walls with a force reset, but claiming they should just allow the player to drive anywhere beyond track limits is silly. I'd rather they focus more on the actual racing on track than continuing to focus on everything else. Proper collision detection with trackside objects and other vehicles would be a start. There are already tons of open world games that allow you to drive anywhere.
 
Enclosed because PD modeled some tyres in the access roads
No, enclosed because almost the entire track is surrounded by concrete walls (as is true for most of the tracks PD has in the game), which is pretty much the opposite of anything anyone in this thread has been talking about for opening up track boundaries. If you have to use an example that extreme as an attempted witticism you've already sunk your argument.
 
No, enclosed because almost the entire track is surrounded by concrete walls (as is true for most of the tracks PD has in the game), which is pretty much the opposite of anything anyone in this thread has been talking about for opening up track boundaries. If you have to use an example that extreme as an attempted witticism you've already sunk your argument.

No, it wouldn't be enclosed if there were no tyre barriers, there would be ways to exit the track, I was merely asking where the line is? If you want to be able to drive away from the track limits as far as you wants to, then why not be able to leave the track via the access roads? How many Kms of open space would you like to be modelled in each track?

Edit: Also in the ascari video, you can quite clearly see them clipping through trees, people, and the ground itself. It's a bigger area than some other tracks for sure, but it'd take a lot of work to enable those areas to be fully driveable without glitches.
 
If you're going to fabricate sentiments to argue against, you might want to try a bit harder at being less transparent about it.


It's a bigger area than some other tracks for sure, but it'd take a lot of work to enable those areas to be fully driveable without glitches.

*whoosh*
 
If you're going to fabricate sentiments to argue against, you might want to try a bit harder at being less transparent about it.

Wow that's quite ironic. I didn't fabricate anything to argue against.


The track collision extending out from the invisible walls in the video above is very clearly extensively modeled, to the point of having different road surfaces for different areas, and the collision stops from the track at a distance long beyond any racing game I've played with an automatic reset.

Here you stated the collision was extensively modeled, but in the video it shows the car clipping through everything except the ground, even right next to the barriers the car clips through the people and trees, and another car clips right through the ground only a few metres out past that.

So when I said the video clearly showed the damage modeling wasn't extensive, I'm not fabricating anything, as that's what you claimed.

As far as Bathurst not being a fully enclosed track, I said it wouldn't be if the access roads weren't blocked by tyres that PD put there. They could have put invisible walls there, but chose to put tyres instead. I was asking where you draw the line when it comes to being able to explore outside the track limits? The Mt. Panorama circuit is mostly public roads, so it's a legitimate example.

When it comes to force reset vs invisible walls, I couldn't care less which they went for, as neither is realistic, and both do the same job. My point was that it would be a waste of time and resources to model colision for everything outside of the track boundaries for miles in each direction, for those saying there should be nothing to stop you going out of bounds at all. Again, I'd prefer they put that effort into parts of the game that are actually within the game's focus as a racing sim.

Obviously you're just looking for something to argue against.
 
Let's take a look at the options:

A. Keep the invisible walls, or
B. Replace the invisible walls with visible walls.

The C option: "Remove the walls and let us drive anywhere", does not exist, because most of the tracks aren't built that way, and "converting" them to make it possible to drive anywhere would probably require so much work that it would take years to complete.

So the question is: are realistic* walls so important that you'd much rather hide the surrounding scenery behind barriers? I wouldn't. I prefer Death Valley over Andalusia, because Death Valley doesn't have these barriers hiding all the scenery away.

(* realistic in function, not in appearance. Most rally tracks does not have barriers on both sides of the road. Visually, the most realistic option would be to keep those walls invisible.)

It's another thing when building new tracks though, and in many of the new tracks in GT6 the driveable areas have increased. Ascari, Willow Springs, Bathurst, Brands Hatch, Suzuka 2014 all have plenty of areas outside of the track where you can go.

So I'd say that it's a change that is already happening.
 
I don't mean to be rude, but I'll be frank. I honestly don't care when people say they [most of the time] experience clean and fair racing, because let's face it, that's now what everyone does. My experiences are different from yours. Take for example, the Quick Race events. I remember that 500PP S:S race at Trial Mountain, wherein most players cut the last chicane just before the start/finish line. How about it, then? Can you ask those players to drive clean every time? Of course not.

Forcing invisible walls is not the only way to deal with those kind of issues, nor is using slow down penalties etc. I would simply prefer a more realistic way of dealing with situations like that, something more like what I see in real world motorsport. A real time stewards AI program could hand out warnings then drive throughs to drivers who cut, & if they keep doing it they'd get a DSQ & maybe eventually a track or event ban. The point is, there's more than one way to skin a cat.


:)
 
I agree with this idea. I want to be able to explore some places outside of the track.

In GT4, you can break out of the Trial Mountain very easily with the Ford Model T '15, so, that's why I support this idea.
 
Let's take a look at the options:

A. Keep the invisible walls, or
B. Replace the invisible walls with visible walls.

The C option: "Remove the walls and let us drive anywhere", does not exist, because most of the tracks aren't built that way, and "converting" them to make it possible to drive anywhere would probably require so much work that it would take years to complete.

There is a third option.

Remove the invisible barriers to a distance at which the player is highly unlikely to actually encounter them in normal gameplay.

There needs to be something to stop the player simply driving off into the sunset, but the player absolutely shouldn't be hitting an invisible wall when they've got two wheels still on the track. And they probably shouldn't be hitting an invisible wall even if they have a decent spin off. It should really take a concerted effort to hit the arbitrary track limits.

Invisible walls are what was done a long time ago because it was easy. Nowadays there are better ways, like making sure that there's twenty plus metres of drivable terrain on each side of the road to accommodate racing incidents. Being stopped by a plastic tape, or worse, absolutely nothing at all, is just unprofessional and somewhat spoils the "realism" aspect of the game. Gran Turismo can do better.
 
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