Renault suspended from European Grand Prix

[peterjford]

They could have easily ordered Fernando to stop before the end of the pitlane at least or somewhere on the track, I think the sticking point is that they knowingly allowed the car to go around the track with a wheel that was just waiting to come off and fly into the path of another driver....(not to mention bits of carbon fibre flying about!).
Even if the mechanics didn't know it was loose (which is impossible seeing as they had trouble getting it on in the first place), they could have easily seen from the onboard footage that it was not a puncture, especially after the wheel cover came off. They had a long time to make a decision and they chose to let Alonso coast around the track to the pits - which was a rather dangerous and stupid decision.

I imagine the suspension will be ultimately lifted before Valencia but certainly the wheel covers will be banned now, it was already on the cards with FOTA - but they were unsure before, certainly won't be now.

The mechanics knew there was a problem with the wheel cover, but did they know the whole wheel was loose? I doubt they would have released him if they did. Then the onboard footage would have only confirmed what they thought was wrong. When the wheel cover came off it didn't look like the wheel was going to come off. Even if it did, by then it was too late. I would have expected any team to tell the driver to limp it back to the pits in that situation.

I think the penalty is excessive because it punishes the drivers too. The team should be excluded from getting team points for the race, but he drivers should be allowed to compete and earn points.

 

[Havok_]

Alonso was limping as soon as he left the pits. Right after turn 2 he keyed his mic and said that he had a flat tire. He let each car pass him and didn't even attempt to get the car to speed. As he was limping back to the pits, the wheel came completley off. Anyone who actually sae the race would actually know this.

A fine so harsh as exclusion from the next GP is absurd. How would a race team "knowingly" let their driver out knowing his car was crippled? He was in the lead for god's sake and he quite possibly could have finished well in the points, which was their goal.

It was a dangerous situation but the car was going fairly slow, Alonso did what he could. The penalty does not justify the action. I'm sure cooler heads will prevail.

 

[Ardius]

Alonso was limping as soon as he left the pits. Right after turn 2 he keyed his mic and said that he had a flat tire. He let each car pass him and didn't even attempt to get the car to speed. As he was limping back to the pits, the wheel came completley off. Anyone who actually sae the race would actually know this.

A fine so harsh as exclusion from the next GP is absurd. How would a race team "knowingly" let their driver out knowing his car was crippled? He was in the lead for god's sake and he quite possibly could have finished well in the points, which was their goal.

It was a dangerous situation but the car was going fairly slow, Alonso did what he could. The penalty does not justify the action. I'm sure cooler heads will prevail.

You misunderstand the reason why the FIA had a problem - it wasn't because of releasing him from the pits (though that was bad). It was because they had plenty of time to get on the radio and tell Alonso it wasn't a flat tyre and that he should pull over. Alonso was actually on the radio quite early saying he thought he had a puncture, but the team decided to tell him nothing - or tell him to cruise around back to the pits.

The exclusion is because the team attempted to try and fight for points in the race knowing to do so they had to let a damaged car limp around the track with a wheel that could come loose at any second. They basically endangered the lives of the other drivers in the race. They could have decided to take the safe option and tell Alonso to stop but they neglected to. Just because you were in a position to fight for a win is no good reason to take risks like that.

And even though the car was slow, the closing speed of another car to that wheel is enough to do serious damage. If you saw the Surtees crash, the wheel in that instance wasn't travelling at a high speed, but because Henry was it made the difference in the impact. Same goes for Massa and the spring.

Heavy handed penalty perhaps, but after those two accidents involving debris on track, its a very understandable one. Can you really argue that the team did everything they could to ensure the safety of other drivers?

The mechanics knew there was a problem with the wheel cover, but did they know the whole wheel was loose? I doubt they would have released him if they did. Then the onboard footage would have only confirmed what they thought was wrong. When the wheel cover came off it didn't look like the wheel was going to come off. Even if it did, by then it was too late. I would have expected any team to tell the driver to limp it back to the pits in that situation.

I think the penalty is excessive because it punishes the drivers too. The team should be excluded from getting team points for the race, but he drivers should be allowed to compete and earn points.

Even if they didn't think the wheel would come off - which is a rather stupid assumption if they knew the nut didn't go on properly - the debris from the wheel cover itself was bad enough! I don't think the team did enough to prevent it happening and I suspect the FIA heard something on the radio they didn't like.
That or Renault are the fall guys for the recent accidents or both.

 

[Tired Tyres]

No I can't but it is a knee-jerk reaction after the Massa incident and we should expect better from a governing body. But then again, it is the FIA so perhaps not.

 

[Famine]

The mechanics knew there was a problem with the wheel cover, but did they know the whole wheel was loose? I doubt they would have released him if they did.

The lollipop man released him before the front-right wheel mechanic was ready.

No I can't but it is a knee-jerk reaction after the Massa incident

More importantly, the Surtees incident - the guy was killed by a loose wheel bouncing across the track a week ago.

 

[ExigeEvan]

No I can't but it is a knee-jerk reaction after the Massa incident and we should expect better from a governing body. But then again, it is the FIA so perhaps not.

No, it's a knee jerk reaction after Henry Surtees died. Which was due to a tyre breaking free in an accident and colliding with him. In terms of racing safety the Massa incident is not relevant unless you think thatc losed cockpits are the answer. But many believe they'd actually have negative side effects.

The fact the commentators were quite sure that the wheel was loosely attached and Alonso cointinued to drive is a very clear sign that the team should have done better.

The wheel-man is at fault and the driver-controller are at fault for not telling him to pull over. But, as it's a team sport they are punished as a whole, which I believe is fair.

 

[mipuumal]

The lollipop man released him before the front-right wheel mechanic was ready.

Actually the wheelgun guy had his hand up signaling they were done, if you look at most pitstops, the guys have their hands up before they go to fasten the wheelnut.

 

[Famine]

And yet the guy wasn't done checking the weird plastic thingy they all have in their wheels these days. I didn't see the mechanic's hand raised...

 

[mipuumal]

And yet the guy wasn't done checking the weird plastic thingy they all have in their wheels these days. I didn't see the mechanic's hand raised...

Right, the secondary guy wasn't ready but I think the lollipop guy checks for the wheelgun guy's hand, which was up.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Right, the secondary guy wasn't ready but I think the lollipop guy checks for the wheelgun guy's hand, which was up.

No it wasn't go watch the highlights and renualt told alonzo NOT to stop on the track when they knew the wheel could come off when they should have told him to pull over to the side and park it alot of people seem to forget that.

edit he is pointing to the lollypop man not to release the car if you watch the highlights you will see him signalling to them to hold on as he didn't have the nut on but he release fonzie anyway.

 

[mipuumal]

edit he is pointing to the lollypop man not to release the car if you watch the highlights you will see him signalling to them to hold on as he didn't have the nut on but he release fonzie anyway.

The hand being held up in that picture is the wheelgun guy's hand, which is in the "ready" position.

When he came back to the pits on the next lap the guy put his hand up the same exact way.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

The hand being held up in that picture is the wheelgun guy's hand, which is in the "ready" position.

When he came back to the pits on the next lap the guy put his hand up the same exact way.

watch the highlights you will see he is pointing to the person holding the ramp not to drop the car then when he does the THREE wheel men on that wheel are pointing and telling the lollypop man NOT to release the car.

go and WATCH the highlights you will see this,also look at the wheelman on the left his hand is up in the air the wheelman on the right is POINTING to the lollypop man and why would his hand be raised if the 2nd wheelman is STILL touching the wheel trying to get it to go on he is trying to tell the lollypop man not to release the car.

second wheelmans hand still on the wheel when alonso pulls away.

 

[darkfinal]

OFF-TOPIC:

watch the highlights you will see he is pointing to the person holding the ramp not to drop the car then when he does the THREE wheel men on that wheel are pointing and telling the lollypop man NOT to release the car.

go and WATCH the highlights you will see this,also look at the wheelman on the left his hand is up in the air the wheelman on the right is POINTING to the lollypop man and why would his hand be raised if the 2nd wheelman is STILL touching the wheel trying to get it to go on he is trying to tell the lollypop man not to release the car.

second wheelmans hand still on the wheel when alonso pulls away.

Here, have some of those: ...... ,,,,,, ;;;;;

 

[LouTs337]

I think they were looking at his start - he looked as if he made a bit of a forceful move, but I didn't see him do anything wrong in the replay. Good decision to investigate the incident after the race though...


I've always disliked them - always looked like an accident waiting to happen, and in the light of what happened to Felipe Massa this weekend, the Renault incident today couldn't have come at a worse time.

Revised opinion:
After thinking and hearing more about the incident it seems hard but fair punishment since they knew they were sending out an dangerous car.

 

[m7ammed]

Different punishments for what is the same offence is not a good idea and make the FIA look silly.

When didn't they look silly

 

[Touring Mars]

The reverse is also true - they'd also look a bit silly if they handed out the same punishment for entirely different things. Kimi's move(s) at the start of the Hungarian GP were investigated and judged (correctly) to be nothing like Webber's deliberate smack into Barrichello in the previous race, hence different punishments...

 

[Enigma]

The reverse is also true - they'd also look a bit silly if they handed out the same punishment for entirely different things. Kimi's move(s) at the start of the Hungarian GP were investigated and judged (correctly) to be nothing like Webber's deliberate smack into Barrichello in the previous race, hence different punishments...

Yes but surely the incident should have been investigated during the
race the way Webbers was as they were both start line incidents.

Why is it when an incident involving a ferrari happens things always seem
to be done differently?

 

[Touring Mars]

The responsibility for that difference lies with the stewards in each race... i.e. the FIA had nothing to do with it (and hence any accusations of pro-Ferrari bias leveled at the FIA don't apply to this incident)...

 

[Hun200kmh]

Yes but surely the incident should have been investigated during the
race the way Webbers was as they were both start line incidents.

Why is it when an incident involving a ferrari happens things always seem
to be done differently?

Blame it on FIA inconsistency, unless you still think FIA means Ferrari International Assistance.

One other very good example of this inconsistency, and also from this last race, is Red Bull getting away with nothing more than a verbal warning for creating a potentially very dangerous situation in the pitlane (by releasing Webber when Kimi was passing by).

This happened last year with Massa, and Ferrari got a penalty for it

http://www.forumula1.net/2008/f1/f1-news/ferrari-fined-for-pit-stop-incident/

 

[Enigma]

I know they use different stewards for each race but do they not work from the same rulebook?

There is no reasonable explanation why it wasnt investigated during the race the way Webbers incident was and I have seen this inconsistant approach on many occasions

I would just like to know why as it never seems to be explained.

 

[m7ammed]

I know they use different stewards for each race but do they not work from the same rulebook?

I'm guessing that's the most probable reason. Different people will have different judgment on different situations. Also one thing I would like to note is that these stewards get to hear and know more about the incident than we do, because all we know is what we see on TV. On the other hand these stewards sometimes listen in to radio communications and question drivers ... etc to get to a conclusion.

But I still thing the stewards should be the same for each race gives better consistency.

 

[Enigma]

I'm guessing that's the most probable reason. Different people will have different judgment on different situations. Also one thing I would like to note is that these stewards get to hear and know more about the incident than we do, because all we know is what we see on TV. On the other hand these stewards sometimes listen in to radio communications and question drivers ... etc to get to a conclusion.

But I still thing the stewards should be the same for each race gives better consistency.

I understand different people will have different judgements but thats something that will happen during the investigation.

Im not talking about the outcome the point im making is why at one GP the investigation is done during the race and at the next GP its done after the race there is no logical explanation for this.

Surely they have a rulebook that tells them when startline/first lap incidents are to be investigated.

I agree with you that it should be the same stewards that go to every race it would be much more consistant 👍

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

I was bit ticked off about the penalty, but now I can see that it can be justified. Alonso's race was over pretty much when the tire start shredding itself. If someone came up to his tire quickly it could have been fatal.

 

[SUPER NUMBBER]

I don't disagree that they should be penalized, but I still think a fine with a grid penalty would've been more appropriate, not shutting out 2 drivers who had nothing to do with the infraction.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Perhaps a penalty... 'bout 1 or 2 million

 

[niky]

I don't disagree that they should be penalized, but I still think a fine with a grid penalty would've been more appropriate, not shutting out 2 drivers who had nothing to do with the infraction.

You know, Alonso and Piquet are not excluded from the race. Renault is... because it's Renault's blunder that caused the dangerous situation, and to show them how serious that blunder is, they're excluded so that they don't cause the same situation in the next race.

It's just the drivers' unfortunate circumstances that they don't have another team they can drive for.

I'm pissed, too... Alonso doesn't deserve this... but what can you do?

I vote that the lollipop man be excluded from the rest of the season.

 

[SUPER NUMBBER]

Well Alonso and Piquet are part of the team, so I assume if they banned Renault, all their personnel is banned, including their drivers (unless they specifically said otherwise). It's not like the FIA expect to have a car with empty seats at the ready in case they need to ban a team except for the driver. That's why it's so unfair.

 

[slidesquad#1]

This is purely conjecture, but I was rationalising it like this.

Red Bull got a pretty hefty fine in Melbourne for allowing Vettel to carry on with 3 wheels, even though that was the result of an on track incident they had no part of. Renault allowed Alonso to do the same, and this was a direct consequence of something the team did, so I really have no issues with a sterner punishment.

About it being unfair on Alonso and Piquet, tough luck. They are as much a part of the team as all the mechanics and technicians, so if it applies to the team, it applies to them.

 

[J-PaP]

Renault suspension overturned

Renault to race at Valencia after winning appeal
The Renault crawls back to the pits on three wheels, and Alonso eventually retires Drama for Alonso as the right-front wheel of his car falls off following the stop Nelson Piquet Jr. (BRA) Renault R29. Formula One World Championship, Rd 9, German Grand Prix, Practice Day, Nurburgring, Germany, Friday, 10 July 2009

Renault have had their suspension from this weekend’s European Grand Prix overturned after an FIA International Court of Appeal hearing in Paris on Monday. The team were handed the punishment at the last round in Hungary, where they were found at fault for allowing driver Fernando Alonso to leave the pits with a wheel that hadn’t been properly secured.

Though Renault admitted unsafe conduct, the Court decided that the penalty was too severe and replaced it with a reprimand and a US$50,000 fine. Alonso, whose front-right wheel eventually worked its way loose when he returned to the track, faced missing his home race in Valencia had the appeal failed.

Budapest stewards said they believed Renault had knowingly released Alonso without one of the retaining devices for the wheel-nuts being securely in position; that being aware of this, the team had failed to take any action to prevent the car from leaving the pit lane; and that they had then failed to inform the driver of this problem or to advise him to take appropriate action given the circumstances.

Renault’s lawyer argued that there had been no conscious wrongdoing on the team’s part and insisted that the misdemeanor warranted no more than a reprimand. According to Renault, the two mechanics who dealt with the errant wheel were unable to inform the pit wall or the driver prior to him leaving the pits.

Having won their appeal, Renault are now expected to announce a new driver to replace Nelson Piquet. Piquet revealed over the summer break that he is being dropped midway through his second race season with the French team. Renault tester and GP2 star Roman Grosjean has been widely tipped as his successor.

The International Court of Appeal’s decision in full:
Renault admitted to the Court that it breached the Sporting Regulations, in that it failed to ensure that car no. 7 complied with the conditions for safety throughout practice and the race, and that it released the car after a pit stop when it was unsafe to do so. However, it requested the Court to reconsider the severity of the sanction imposed by the Stewards.

Having heard the arguments of the parties, the Court has decided as follows:

1. to allow the appeal and overturn the sanction imposed by the Stewards in the Contested Decision;

2. to issue a reprimand and impose a fine of $50,000 upon Renault.

The reasons for this decision will be published in a full judgment in the coming days.

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2009/8/9748.html

 

[SUPER NUMBBER]

Now I agree that Renault shouldn't be suspended from Valencia, but this fine is the other extreme; I think it's too light. Is the McLaren spying incident somehow worse than endangering other drivers on the grid?

Why can't these people ever get anything right?