Rim Size : Performance

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Why not? It's claimed to be a "simulator" so why shouldn't we have things that reinforce that title?

Tire size/width is a big part of motorsport in real life. It almost seems stupid not to have such a feature implemented.
They obviously don't simulate everything.
 
I think the only reason is because it adds so many other variables. Much like why adding a carbon fiber hood, or a roll cage, isn't going to affect the cars weight distribution in the game. Would it be awesome? Yes. But only if done right which is why they haven't gone into all the little details since they have spent so much time just trying to get the basics right.

Which is why I don't think we'll also ever see the introduction of motor swaps or drivetrain swaps. In theory it would be great, but all the little things that need to be considered when performing those mods would take a lot of work, and I know PD would want to do it in the most realistic way possible.
 
Why not? It's claimed to be a "simulator" so why shouldn't we have things that reinforce that title?

Tire size/width is a big part of motorsport in real life. It almost seems stupid not to have such a feature implemented.

It is claimed to be a simulator, but PD have never simulated the motorsports experience accurately. The AI and sounds are extremely poor and have not changed significantly in 15 years, the break-in period and oil changes are utter nonsense, the weight reductions result in no visual changes to the car, and tyre pressure has never been modelled. And so on.

Since the tyre model allegedly hasn't been improved for GT6 I would rather not see it for now. If they have a significantly improved tyre model for GT7, sure, I would accept rims having an impact on performance. But as it is now, I would see rim weights being an awkward compromise, and another example of PD cherry-picking reality with seemingly little benefit to the players.
 
It is claimed to be a simulator, but PD have never simulated the motorsports experience accurately. The AI and sounds are extremely poor and have not changed significantly in 15 years, the break-in period and oil changes are utter nonsense, the weight reductions result in no visual changes to the car, and tyre pressure has never been modelled. And so on.

Since the tyre model allegedly hasn't been improved for GT6 I would rather not see it for now. If they have a significantly improved tyre model for GT7, sure, I would accept rims having an impact on performance. But as it is now, I would see rim weights being an awkward compromise, and another example of PD cherry-picking reality with seemingly little benefit to the players.
I could have sworn that it was said that PD had worked with Yokohama to develop new tire models...
Where did you see it said that was not the case?

Just wondering.
 
I could have sworn that it was said that PD had worked with Yokohama to develop new tire models...
Where did you see it said that was not the case?

Just wondering.

I have read nothing from numerous GTPlanet members who played the demo of the game suggesting that the tyre model has been improved. There has been significant advancements with the suspension modelling, but I have not heard that any changes have been made to the tyre model.
 
How does offset affect lateral grip? All you're doing is shifting your track.

Widening the overall trackwidth (using offset wheels) of a vehicle is a big deal, mate. -A substantial increase in grip.


(concerning rotational weight) Well when your car is made to be light (ie. a race car) that's true. When your car is made to a certain level of luxury (ie. a road car) it's not gonna make any difference.

I'm sorry man, but any unsprung rotational weight reduction is going to make a difference in performance. Accelleration, Braking, Cornering. It's good stuff!
 
Widening the overall trackwidth (using offset wheels) of a vehicle is a big deal, mate. -A substantial increase in grip.

I'm sorry man, but any unsprung rotational weight reduction is going to make a difference in performance. Accelleration, Braking, Cornering. It's good stuff!

How does a wider track now increase your lateral grip substantially though?

Hmm I may have misspoke with the rotational weight. I'm sure it'll make a difference on a race car but how do you define that difference? And when you're talking of a road car that has heavy corners how much of a difference are you talking before it's noticeable?
 
EDIT: Nevermind all of this has been covered already...



The width of rubber makes a big difference, this is the only point of contact your car has with the road. To say "I don't think it's going to make that much of a difference to be honest" & "something as small as this" you must be taking the mickey mate.

Exactly. All the suspension and brakes in the world don't do anything if you don't have sufficient ground contact.

Bigger rims = heavier wheels = lower straight-line performance. I hope this is well rendered.

Not neccessarily. There are MANY wheels out there that weigh less than rubber. Taller wheel + lower profile + increased width "may" end up equaling the same amount of rubber in the stock standard pizza cutters the car came with. Then add lightweight wheels and you're still ahead in shaving off pounds.

If PD want this to be THE REAL DRIVING SIM then they would be silly to overlook major factors like Profile, Diameter, pressure, Side Wall and even Tyre Rating ( R, W, Z ect). they all work together in one cohesive package to change the handling characteristic and the way the car behaves under different loads and circumstance. In GT5 they do have that indicator which shows you the stresses that the tyres are under to some degree but it was very crude to say the least. i hope the work with Yokohama bring some more true to life handling characteristics.

This.

KW would have a little something to do with this since unsprung weight and rotational mass also have an effect on suspension and handling. Then you have Yokohama which would definitely have an interest in making sure the tire model isn't totally jacked from changing wheels.

Maybe it will just be a multiplier but hopefully it'll be an actual model of unsprung weight, rotational mass, contact patch, pressure, side load, and vertical load etc...
 
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I'm sorry man, but any unsprung rotational weight reduction is going to make a difference in performance. Accelleration, Braking, Cornering. It's good stuff!
Indeed, any decrease in unsprung weight in general will make quite a difference. People don't realize just how much the suspension moves up and down and the forces on it.
 
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How does a wider track now increase your lateral grip substantially though?

Hmm I may have misspoke with the rotational weight. I'm sure it'll make a difference on a race car but how do you define that difference? And when you're talking of a road car that has heavy corners how much of a difference are you talking before it's noticeable?

A wider track is more resistant to roll changes (it rolls less for a given cornering force, all else being equal), helping to keep the dynamic weight shift closer to 50-50 laterally. This means you're using more of the tyre you have on the car, rather than relying heavily on one side in corners (also the reason for stiff springs, generally - now also aero downforce).

That "roll resistance" is further improved by lowering the centre of gravity, since it is the lateral lever moment from the centre of gravity (as projected along the centre-line of the car) to the wheel contact patches that induces the rolling motion. See here for the same thing illustrated in the longitudinal case (i.e. pitch; acceleration and braking).

It is easier to push over a narrow object than it is a wider one, ("width" measured in the direction of the force applied), when pushed at the same vertical height on the object, and with sufficient friction at its base, for much of the same reasons. (Try it).
 
I believe rim-size is just for appearance in GT6. Unless they include the various weights of the rims there is no way to calculate rotational mass and implement how it affects acceleration. The same could be said for tire width affecting how much traction the car will have. I doubt they developed a working physics engine to include those factors, but let's see on December 6th, shall we?

The game already has purely rotational mass and rotational inertia based upgrades (dual clutch, racing flywheels, and carbon driveshafts), so they should already be equipped to handle variations in rotational mass and inertia. I've never actually A/B tested those upgrades, so I don't know if GT actually does anything useful with them like it should.

A one pound gain in each wheel (driven or not) is like taking a racing flywheel mod and putting on the original flywheel. BIG loss in power!

Not even close. A lightweight flywheel can potentially cut out 10 to 15 lbs of mass, and it's pre gear reduction so it's rotating at higher speeds. It's a much bigger deal than a pound on each wheel.

Increasing rotating masses will increase the car's inertia, not cause the engine to lose power.

While that's true, in most cases, they have the same impact: the car accelerates more slowly (in the one case because the engine is putting out less power, in the other because more of that power is siphoned off to accelerate the rotational mass of the drivetrain vs. pushing against the road to accelerate the car). The difference only comes with the non-acceleration effects, i.e. greater rotational mass doesn't alter your top speed, it just alters how quickly you get there.
 
A wider track is more resistant to roll changes (it rolls less for a given cornering force, all else being equal), helping to keep the dynamic weight shift closer to 50-50 laterally. This means you're using more of the tyre you have on the car, rather than relying heavily on one side in corners (also the reason for stiff springs, generally - now also aero downforce).

That "roll resistance" is further improved by lowering the centre of gravity, since it is the lateral lever moment from the centre of gravity (as projected along the centre-line of the car) to the wheel contact patches that induces the rolling motion. See here for the same thing illustrated in the longitudinal case (i.e. pitch; acceleration and braking).

It is easier to push over a narrow object than it is a wider one, ("width" measured in the direction of the force applied), when pushed at the same vertical height on the object, and with sufficient friction at its base, for much of the same reasons. (Try it).

At the same time stability isn't the same as tyre friction, you could maybe use your tyres more effectively but what percentage increase in friction will you see? Your loads are lesser with the greater track but seriously if you're gonna try and say that increasing track width will gain you all this friction I don't buy. Your tyres all work on contact patch. So is shifting a contact patch from your centreline going to make the difference or is increasing your contact patch gonna make the change ;)

Having a laterally stable car is great but don't you think there are better ways to increase lateral stability than by increasing your track width? Like with an anti roll bar...

Indeed, any decrease in unsprung weight in general will make quite a difference. People don't realize just how much the suspension moves up and down and the forces on it.

Tell me the change in rotational energy to rotate a wheel assembly with a change in weight of 1lb then? Or tell me the lateral force change is in a 50kg corner with a track width of 1600mm and a CoG height of 300mm to a corner assembly that now weighs 42kg. Assuming it corners at a lateral acceleration of 0.8 (reasonable for street car) How difference do you see in the loadings then? What about in longitudinal forces? same deal with a wheelbase of 3000mm. It's not like you're not gonna see a change it's what the driver can perceive to change.

Lotus and I think Protean Electric or someone did a study about in wheel electric motors. Essentially they said yes you do have a change when you increased the corner weights however it wasn't noticeable to the drivers and in normal engineering practice they could be resolved (I guess by making everything lighter).

So yeah on a race car you might as well make everything light, on a road car where comfort > grip it's not as big as an issue perceived.

Pontiac marketing strikes again?

I don't get this reference.
 
Tell me the change in rotational energy to rotate a wheel assembly with a change in weight of 1lb then? Or tell me the lateral force change is in a 50kg corner with a track width of 1600mm and a CoG height of 300mm to a corner assembly that now weighs 42kg. Assuming it corners at a lateral acceleration of 0.8 (reasonable for street car) How difference do you see in the loadings then? What about in longitudinal forces? same deal with a wheelbase of 3000mm. It's not like you're not gonna see a change it's what the driver can perceive to change.
Erm... I was talking about unsprung weight affecting the movement response of the suspension.
 
At the same time stability isn't the same as tyre friction, you could maybe use your tyres more effectively but what percentage increase in friction will you see? Your loads are lesser with the greater track but seriously if you're gonna try and say that increasing track width will gain you all this friction I don't buy. Your tyres all work on contact patch. So is shifting a contact patch from your centreline going to make the difference or is increasing your contact patch gonna make the change ;)

I never said it increases friction, and tyres are not linear, so actually having less loading is exactly what you want in some cases, to get more out of them for longer (the exact "maximum" load depends on the tyre's design point, and what direction it's applied in).

What it does do is increase the useful lifespan of a set of tyres, and reduces the bias between sides of a car in corners, meaning you can push both tyres closer to maximum load rather than being limited (in terms of acceleration, i.e. cornering speed) by the outside tyre's (designed) maximum load.

I don't see the point in arguing a difference of degree on this issue when it obviously works in real life (racing cars are practically always up against the regulation limit in terms of track width). And increasing the tyre size, using your linear tyres, "should" make no difference either - see here. Obviously reality is subtly different from any simplified rule of thumb or superficial physical analysis.
Having a laterally stable car is great but don't you think there are better ways to increase lateral stability than by increasing your track width? Like with an anti roll bar...
...

Sort of, anti-roll bars are flawed as roll-control devices in that they attempt to pull up the inside wheel on its travel, effectively reducing the ride height on that side, giving the car a kind-of lop-sided stance, and physically moving the CoG lower - it takes effort to do this, too, which is effort that could be going into cornering (although it is likely a small drain that is largely returned on relaxation, depending on dampers).

Increasing your track width reduces the moment that causes the roll in the first place, meaning you need less anti-roll bar to start with. And it even says in GT's tuning help that anti-roll bars are not to be used to prevent roll, that's the springs' job! They're better for fine-tuning, especially for balancing front and rear "grip".
 
I think what would need to be addressed then is the way grip is employed. The grip is just a number that is applied to the specific tire selection, not the tire itself. The amount of grip is the same in forward motion and sideways motion, which is not the case in real life. Tires have completely different characteristics between going forward and going sideways, and there's something in the physics that I'm sure can't account for that
 
I never s
aid it increases friction, and tyres are not linear, so actually having less loading is exactly what you want in some cases, to get more out of them for longer (the exact "maximum" load depends on the tyre's design point, and what direction it's applied in).

What it does do is increase the useful lifespan of a set of tyres, and reduces the bias between sides of a car in corners, meaning you can push both tyres closer to maximum load rather than being limited (in terms of acceleration, i.e. cornering speed) by the outside tyre's (designed) maximum load.

I don't see the point in arguing a difference of degree on this issue when it obviously works in real life (racing cars are practically always up against the regulation limit in terms of track width). And increasing the tyre size, using your linear tyres, "should" make no difference either - see here. Obviously reality is subtly different from any simplified rule of thumb or superficial physical analysis.


Sort of, anti-roll bars are flawed as roll-control devices in that they attempt to pull up the inside wheel on its travel, effectively reducing the ride height on that side, giving the car a kind-of lop-sided stance, and physically moving the CoG lower - it takes effort to do this, too, which is effort that could be going into cornering (although it is likely a small drain that is largely returned on relaxation, depending on dampers).

Increasing your track width reduces the moment that causes the roll in the first place, meaning you need less anti-roll bar to start with. And it even says in GT's tuning help that anti-roll bars are not to be used to prevent roll, that's the springs' job! They're better for fine-tuning, especially for balancing front and rear "grip".


My whole point was that increasing/decreasing offset won't get you all this extra tyre friction! Something that you may have missed. There's another reason as to why you would run a wide track on a race car think of aerodynamic aids and what they're usually constrained to ;) Otherwise the deltawing gets away with running a narrow front track. Offset is usually a packaging and scrub radius issue. If you're chasing extra tyre grip and you're changing your offset everything else on the car must already be performing at 110%.

Yeah anti roll bars are flawed but they do their job though. You can fine tune your roll moment distribution front and rear with them. It just depends on whatever spring rate your set your roll bar to. Springs do their work in roll however they don't also only work in roll. Obviously if you're car has a roll gradient of 5 deg/g then something is obviously flawed with your spring rates. And to a certain point yes anti roll bars can be used for fine tuning or they could also be used in the design of the car for a high roll stiffness with low pitch stiffness.

Yeah you can use your anti roll bar to fine tune the Roll Moment Distribution Front and Rear (in which case it's almost just as effective to run a rear anti roll bar and no front).

Erm... I was talking about unsprung weight affecting the movement response of the suspension.

But you mentioned forces? So I ask you this, what are the forces acting on it? And how much do they change when you see a 10% decrease in weight at the corners? And then what are the velocity changes in your dampers when you have lighter corners?
 
But you mentioned forces? So I ask you this, what are the forces acting on it? And how much do they change when you see a 10% decrease in weight at the corners? And then what are the velocity changes in your dampers when you have lighter corners?[/quote]

Oh, the math involved in answering that! I'm sure it's out there, but it makes my head hurt thinking about learning it! No wonder outside companies helped with the model!
 
The Deltawing gets away with a narrow front track because there's no weight up front and the front end does little more than get the car pointed. The rear tires do the brunt of the work, even in cornering. That's why track width, tires and brakes matter back there, even if they don't, up front.
 
My whole point was that increasing/decreasing offset won't get you all this extra tyre friction! Something that you may have missed. ...


You're the one missing it here, man. No one has claimed a friction increase resulting from trackwidth change at any point. Maybe you mistook 'grip' as friction on it's own? We mean 'cornering performance' when we say grip. A car with even 1lb (per corner) lighter wheels, a slightly widened trackwidth, and larger contact patch (ALL of which can be had with one single purchase) will be called 'noticably grippier' than it's stock counterpart, and that is being conservative. I recently did this to my own vehicle and the difference in grip, or cornering performance, is astounding. I couldn't imagine the difference with even higher offsets and widebody fenders. It would be off the charts.

Grippier is a word. I looked it up. Big Book of Made-Up Racing Terms, pg. 419.
 
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You're the one missing it here, man. No one has claimed a friction increase resulting from trackwidth change at any point. Maybe you mistook 'grip' as friction on it's own? We mean 'cornering performance' when we say grip. A car with even 1lb (per corner) lighter wheels, a slightly widened trackwidth, and larger contact patch (ALL of which can be had with one single purchase) will be called 'noticably grippier' than it's stock counterpart, and that is being conservative. I recently did this to my own vehicle and the difference in grip, or cornering performance, is astounding. I couldn't imagine the difference with even higher offsets and widebody fenders. It would be off the charts.

Grippier is a word. I looked it up. Big Book of Made-Up Racing Terms, pg. 419.

So what does cornering performance include then? Besides friction obviously.

Edit: If you removed friction from the tyres and the track surface what else would get you grip?

And just curious but what did you change in your car? And what were the dependent and independent variables? I could say that I slapped some negative offset wheels on my car and run faster without telling you that I've also gone from road tyres to slick tyres and doing my tests on a cold track 2 years ago to a freshly paved track the minute it was finished.

I've worked on cars with different offset wheels left and right, different wheelbases left and right (don't even ask how). Not even people who have driven these cars for years could notice a major difference in long sweeping corners and by the time they entered the tight hairpins they were already gone out of it, maybe the yaw acceleration and gyro data would speak differently but talking to drivers they noticed more change in dampers... It just seems like there are better ways to increase your lateral acceleration besides changing offsets. Don't forget that offsets also serve purpose to set your scrub radius in the front and also to make way for packaging. Not very often have I heard car designers go mmmm I want the 17" x 8" -35 for dat grip.
 
The force generated at a contact patch is proportional to the load on it and the "friction coefficient", at least according to a simple friction model (friction is far from simple). That coefficient is not constant, it is dependent on load (dependent on weight shift), temperatures (dependent on tyre's history), deformation (dependent on load, temperatures), the relative rates of slip (dependent on load, temperatures and deformation - the nature of the load dependency may unearth a dependency on friction...) etc. Basically, it's all highly non-linear and inter-dependent - which is why it's very difficult to put in a game.

Obviously, to accelerate a given mass at a given rate (corner at a certain speed and radius) requires pretty much the same force regardless of the "weight transfer" from one side to the other - so the sum of forces generated between tyres on a given axle probably doesn't change much in such a controlled setting. But you're operating one tyre at high load and the other at low load, possibly straddling the optimum (over-working one, under working the other), or having only the loaded tyre at its optimum (friction coefficient). Track widths don't change what a tyre can do, certainly, only where on that tyre's operating curve particular cornering situations sit.

What seems to happen in real life is that when you reduce the dynamic weight shifting from side to side in the corners, the tyres just perform better overall - this is presumably due to the way they're designed, and all the inter-dependent non-linear stuff above. Additionally, in reality, you don't want to go around a corner at a given rate, you want to do it at the fastest you possibly can - you can logically only do that if you're using all the rubber you have on the car equally (and they're all operating optimally).

That's only for steady-state, there are other considerations for dynamic response, and there are indeed further complications that can begin to reduce the effectiveness of track increases beyond a certain limit (related to wheelbase and steering geometry). Still, a wider track generally seems to be preferable, with or without aero.
 
This car:

http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/photos/mormon-meteor-iii/3774/#item=87218

(The Mormon Meteor III)

Is the best argument I can think of for widening the track. It actually had the entire engine and body offset by 6 inches to distribute the weight evenly (The rear shot actually shows it FAR better, but I can't find one quickly) as it traveled around a 10 (or 12?) mile circle on its record setting runs.

Widening the track, yes, does NOTHING for the load bearing wheel, BUT it DOES change the center of gravity so that more weight is on the inside tires, and less is on the outside. (Admittedly, it's not always a huge difference, and I don't know the math, but it's easy enough to see this happening.)
 
We nee dto able to do this with old school ROAD cars as well as the RM's


That extra tyre width would definitely transform all the classic Japanese cars (Im talking to you 240ZG).
 
Off topic a bit here!

I was looking at the screenshot of the rims for any clues and noticed on the aero screenshot there is a flat floor option!

Anyway back to the rims.

I imagine that it will probably be more cosmetic than anything. However we have not seen any screenshots of buying tyres, that's maybe where the width will be changeable and the rims adjust according to the tyre width you buy?
 
The force generated at a contact patch is proportional to the load on it and the "friction coefficient", at least according to a simple friction model (friction is far from simple). That coefficient is not constant, it is dependent on load (dependent on weight shift), temperatures (dependent on tyre's history), deformation (dependent on load, temperatures), the relative rates of slip (dependent on load, temperatures and deformation - the nature of the load dependency may unearth a dependency on friction...) etc. Basically, it's all highly non-linear and inter-dependent - which is why it's very difficult to put in a game.

So knowing all that if you were at a race track and you were half a second slower than the fastest guy. Would you

A) Go look at the telemetry and look at what your tyre temperature sensors say?
B) Go look at the data and see that your driver is coasting around 80% of the track and tell them to man up and driver harder?
C) Change the offset wheels you have on?
D) Give up and go home?

On a 1600mm track width car an offset change from +25 to +0 is 50mm change overall. So lets say your 1600mm track width car goes to 1650. Your centre of gravity is 350mm from ground plane and your lateral acceleration is 0.8g. This is assuming 800kg front weight over axles (assuming 1500kg with 55/45 weight balance) The lateral load transfer goes from 1400N to 1358N. Or pretty much equivalent of you sitting in your road car to you sitting in your car slightly more towards the centre by a few centimeters. I've seen weight change of 2kg on a formula ford by a driver by rearranging himself down below..

So how great is 5kg difference in tyre grip? I don't know and I'm gonna guess most people wouldn't either. It just seems like you reducing 5kg of load transfer at the cost of having a higher scrub radius is not worth it but I'm not the one driving so I wouldn't care too much.

BTW great knowledge you have.
 
@azn_racer
Well I'd have taken the car with the maximum track width I could get away with on the suspension geometry available (factoring in scrub radius, if I knew how, which would be car-dependent), so I personally, probably, wouldn't change it. I might consider reducing track width via offsets, though, out of curiosity. I think tyre width, or just pressure, might be more fertile ground by that point, though (in terms of fine-tuning contact patch shape / size for a given tyre), and I just know you'd always look at any relevant telemetry, and especially at your tyres directly (and maybe listen to the driver whinge a bit). :P

For instance, you could probably infer from the tyres that your suspension geometry might benefit from a longer "sweep" in the stroke motion, maybe (perhaps to reduce excess camber variation, re-tweaking ride heights, spring rates etc. to suit, probably) - changing the offset can do that to a small degree. It would not ever be the sole consideration, and should be factored in to the rest of the package, I guess, however difficult that might actually be.

Of course, changing offsets on the wheels is minor compared to proper "racing-style" modifications / ground-up designs to suspension / sub-frames, though (where allowed), which I guess is what you were getting at from the start. :dopey:
Still, every little helps, and it's practically free!

Nice that you took the time to run the numbers, which represent a 3% difference (implying some balance between driving 3% faster or for 3% longer in corners). That's possibly not noticeable to your average driver mid-corner, but the change in dynamics might be, which is sort of the point of changing wheels anyway, I think, since you spend most of your cornering time in transitions of one form or another, rarely at constant radius.


I think the fact that we can have this discussion implies that it's a worthwhile addition, as long as the real-world performance aspects are reflected properly (which would depend a lot on the new suspension and tyre models). 👍
 
I've worked on cars with different offset wheels left and right, different wheelbases left and right (don't even ask how). Not even people who have driven these cars for years could notice a major difference in long sweeping corners and by the time they entered the tight hairpins they were already gone out of it

Are these race drivers on road courses? And are you changing offsets left and right on the same vehicle all these times?

.. talking to drivers they noticed more change in dampers...

Absolutely right. GT has damper upgrades, though. It's time to go in a little deeper. When I really started looking into the tuning world (around 9 years ago), I realized that Gran Turismo had not set me up as well as once thought- pertaining to correct useful knowledge. And as far as tuning the suspension, braking, and power- GT5 was hardly any different than GT2. Hell they removed the brake upgrades completely, for whatever that's worth.. ;)

Not very often have I heard car designers go mmmm I want the 17" x 8" -35 for dat grip.

lol, ok that was pretty good. But, if I'm designing a road racing car from a street car (which is what I think most of us are doing in this game), trackwidth is fairly high on my list after the big obvious things are settled (COG, tires, dampers/springs, wheel/brake system weight). Fully reconstructing the suspension geometry and extending the axles is not really an option, so.. offsets+wider wheels are how we get it.


And just curious but what did you change in your car? And what were the dependent and independent variables?
91 mr2 n/a on stock steel 14x6 front, 14x7 rear vs new MB weapon's (which are actually decent wheels forged in a reconverted Rays factory in Japan). 17x7, 17x8. I lost a good bit of flexy sidewall and also widened my contact patch by 1 inch at all four corners- which itself surely ranks a bit over trackwidth. Maybe. Depends on the amount of increase, which we need not argue over as the point in question is whether trackwidth can make a worthwhile difference..

wakmmr.png


^Now add 10mm to that front profile due to 10mm spacers (high-quality H&R with studs, don't worry), and we have a trackwidth increase of +50mm Front, +60mm Rear. Let's do some test runs with that increase alone, and cornering speed will make a jump worth hooting about. That is a nice increase.

In fact, you can see that I raised the whole car ~1 inch, and the new wheels/tires are a couple lb's heavier 👎 due to size increase + fitting the max amount of rubber/sidewall that I could cram in there. (super low-profile tires will NOT be working out in the mean streets of Dayton, Ohio :lol: ) -These are two big detractors to add to the equation and the handling of this car is still decidedly better by several orders. Several orders of dat grip. :mischievous:

.
 
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@Griffith500 Haha I wouldn't call changing offsets practically free, someone has to buy some wheels.

A lot of this is all wank though I mean it pretty much comes down to whatever the tyre wants to do (tyre force vs. slip angle vs. temperature vs. pressure) it and how it's set up. I guess I spoke a bit too definite and made a fool out of myself. And the fact that GT5 doesn't have tyre pressures is pretty disappointing, I'd rather that than changing my offsets.

@research Runs were done on an old asphalt car park that was dirty and cleaned up throughout the day, and a year old paved tarmac surface that had barely any running before.

Also did you change your tyres to a different brand/compound? How many days/months/years since the last time you ran on the track? It's not that I think your opinion is wrong it's just that unless you've gone out and kept everything the same except for your 1 change (in this case it would be offset/track) how do you know what change caused what effect?

You could say by the same token that going to 17" tyres would make the car handle better, or that wider tyres will make your car perform better if you wanted to disregard the change in track (3% for the front and rear approximately) due to the low percentage change. Maybe pull off the spacers (if you can do it safely without running into packaging issues) next time you go to the track and see what type of changes you get? Or if you have a smartphone try and get an accelerometer app so you can put a number to the changes.

Nice pictures too. Also nice car SW20's are awesome, the best looking mr2s by far.
 
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