Road cars are so difficult to drive.

[RikkiGT-R]

This past few days I've decided to switch off all driving aids entirely (plus simulation steering, damage, no rewind etc). As hardcore as the game gets basically.
I use a G920 and want to experience the game at it's purest form, and until now I've always used at least stability control.

Anyway, cars like the Pagani Zonda Cinque Roadster, Nissan R91CP, Porsche 918 and many other hyper/super/race cars I've tried are an absolute joy to drive (much to my surprise). But when it comes to standard road cars, the kind that are well within the reach of most of us in the real world, I can barely finish a lap on any track. The cars are just so... skittish and fragile. I drive a 2012 Audi S4 (remapped to 440bhp) in real life, the closest to it in FM7 is probably the 2013 RS4 Avant, but the difference in driving in-game is just absurd. For example - just trying to navigate Brooklands and Luffield at Silverstone is honestly a total comedy - even at low speeds the car is all over the place and is clearly desperate to spin out. It's the same for virtually all road cars on any track, and especially on tight corners.

Now you might argue I'm trying to go too fast, but I've tried going a lot slower and the result is lap times miles away from even remotely reasonable. I'm driving a lot slower just to finish laps, go any faster and the lap is ruined so I just can't see how I can speed up. Is there a technique to it? Is there something I'm missing?
I've been playing racing games since GT1, but only used a steering wheel for the last 4 years or so. From memory I've never been able to drive road cars in Forza without stability control (although I really want to keep it off).

I don't really know where I'm going with this thread. It's kind of a rant but looking for advice.

And just for comparison between different car types:
Last night I topped the "hardcore" leaderboard for Hyper Cars around the Old Le Mans circuit.
Today I struggled to a just about sub-3 minute lap around Silverstone in the RS4. I didn't even look at the leaderboard out of embarrassment.

 

[UnshavenYapper]

Simulation steering is for people who want razorsharp steering on the Controller, not wheelusers.

Set it to normal and im sure you will enjoy those cars alot more.

 

[RikkiGT-R]

Simulation steering is for people who want razorsharp steering on the Controller, not wheelusers.

Set it to normal and im sure you will enjoy those cars alot more.

For real? If this is true and normal steering makes things better I will be overjoyed. Can't try it out until tonight though but I will report back as soon as I find out...

 

[UnshavenYapper]

Cant REALLY promise you its the fix.

But being a wheeluser myself i tryed it in Forza 6, and was struggeling with random spinouts and cars behaving plain weird, changed to normal and never looked back.

 

[JeffKill]

What DOR are you using with sim steering. I find that anything other than 900 is just to twitchy.

 

[RikkiGT-R]

What DOR are you using with sim steering. I find that anything other than 900 is just to twitchy.

It’s been set at 540 from the start, that must be the default as I didn’t select it. It was only yesterday I even noticed it but I didn’t change it as I was “used” to 540 (granted, this thread says otherwise).
I’ll try 900 later as well.

 

[PJTierney]

Simulation steering is for people who want razorsharp steering on the Controller, not wheelusers.

I'd say it's for hotlappers who want extra "snappiness".

If you use Simulation Steering in Multiplayer you will die a quick and fiery death as you need to rapidly countersteer so often in order to react to potential crashes.

 

[RikkiGT-R]

I'd say it's for hotlappers who want extra "snappiness".

If you use Simulation Steering in Multiplayer you will die a quick and fiery death as you need to rapidly countersteer so often in order to react to potential crashes.

I’ve been thinking the past few days that there is simply no WAY I would use my current settings even in career mode, the cars are all so fragile that even a slight touch would guarantee a spin out. And with the Drivatars being so idiotic it would be a fruitless venture.

I’m gonna have to try out normal steering as well as 900 DOR.

 

[UnshavenYapper]

I'd say it's for hotlappers who want extra "snappiness".

If you use Simulation Steering in Multiplayer you will die a quick and fiery death as you need to rapidly countersteer so often in order to react to potential crashes.

Wont argue what it is, can only tell what its not. Its not for me and my wheel

BTW i use 540 DOR as well.

 

[prousonhairy]

Wont argue what it is, can only tell what its not. Its not for me and my wheel

BTW i use 540 DOR as well.

You have some extremely fast times, I was surprised when you said you use a wheel. 👍

I wish they would do it like GT, where it would tell you on the leaderboards who uses a controller or a wheel. It’s not really necessary, just would be cool to see who uses what. I’m sure most of the top times are still controller, but maybe there will be more wheel users up there.

I noticed with traction control off, it’s a bit easier than in FM6 to not spin the tires like crazy on some of the cars. The Mercury Cougar Whistler is one of them, you had to be really cautious with it in FM6, and it’s not nearly like that in Fm7.

 

[skazz]

On the ISR review they suggested actually turning on stability control for a feeling which is closer to how road cars drive across most (PC) sims. You can always try that. But normal steering is definitely the first thing to try.

 

[RikkiGT-R]

Ok, I got to do some testing.

Simply by switching steering to “normal” I shaved 30 seconds off my Silverstone lap time with the RS4

Definitely feels so much more controlled. I even had a few moments where the back stepped out but I was able to apply power and bring it back in line. That was a guaranteed spin out earlier.
Gonna keep DOR set at 540 as it feels perfectly natural now as it is.

I’m also still going to be able to make it on to the hardcore leaderboards with my current settings so I’m very happy.

Thanks for the input guys, really appreciated

 

[CSLACR]

It’s been set at 540 from the start, that must be the default as I didn’t select it. It was only yesterday I even noticed it but I didn’t change it as I was “used” to 540 (granted, this thread says otherwise).
I’ll try 900 later as well.

I moved steering settings as follows:
Steering deadzone: 0-95
Steering rotation: 810
Steering linearity: 40

Gas/brake deadzones are 0-100
Clutch deadzone 5-80

I don't use normal steering, I can't stand the delay. (All "normal steering" is, is an input buffer)

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

I don't use normal steering, I can't stand the delay. (All "normal steering" is, is an input buffer)

Actually according to Turn10 there is supposed to be 0 difference between Normal and Sim for wheel users. There is a bug in the sim steering that causes the cars to behave very unrealistically when using a wheel. Normal is the way to go.

 

[UnshavenYapper]

You have some extremely fast times, I was surprised when you said you use a wheel. 👍
.

Well i been using a wheel for gaming the last 12-13 years so its the normal thing for me, i would be pretty bad if i had to be playing on the controller

But for some reason your comment reminded me of this guy.


Just skip to 13min, my car is all handling btw

 

[ImaRobot]

Well i been using a wheel for gaming the last 12-13 years so its the normal thing for me, i would be pretty bad if i had to be playing on the controller

Interesting to know that, as you're my usual go to rival on the boards! I'd be equally bad if I transition to a wheel

 

[prousonhairy]

Well i been using a wheel for gaming the last 12-13 years so its the normal thing for me, i would be pretty bad if i had to be playing on the controller

But for some reason your comment reminded me of this guy.


Just skip to 13min, my car is all handling btw

I was watching that video for a few minutes, and I started thinking to myself “This guy is annoying as 🤬, I wish he would shut the 🤬 up.”. Only then did I look at his gamertag, and realize who he was. I’ve never watched any of his videos before, but it all makes sense now, what I’ve read from others.

 

[UnshavenYapper]

hahah its funny, back when i first saw that video, my thoughts were something like, Yeah if you just shut up and focus'd on racing u might be able to keep up lol

 

[RikkiGT-R]

Just thought I'd point out that since changing to normal steering I haven't looked back. Currently top a few hardcore leaderboards as well, really happy with the control system now.

 

[CSLACR]

Actually according to Turn10 there is supposed to be 0 difference between Normal and Sim for wheel users. There is a bug in the sim steering that causes the cars to behave very unrealistically when using a wheel. Normal is the way to go.

So there's supposed to be a mandatory delay on steering wheels that smooths input?
That sucks.
If they "fix" it, I might stop playing, I really can't stand normal steering. It's great in every way except for the input lag.(mainly on left-right transitions)

 

[ApparitionLOD]

So there's supposed to be a mandatory delay on steering wheels that smooths input?
That sucks.
If they "fix" it, I might stop playing, I really can't stand normal steering. It's great in every way except for the input lag.(mainly on left-right transitions)

I agree. The only thing I see wrong with sim steering is the FFB delay when the Ackermann angle changes. I'll go back to using a controller if an input buffer is to be mandated when using a steering wheel.

 

[Blue028]

Actually according to Turn10 there is supposed to be 0 difference between Normal and Sim for wheel users. There is a bug in the sim steering that causes the cars to behave very unrealistically when using a wheel. Normal is the way to go.

This is what T10Driver said

There are multiple systems layered together to create Normal steering. Forza is known for being controllable and natural on a gamepad and these system are a major component of that feeling. While I won't explain every system involved I will say that Simulation Steering turns these systems off. I'll also confirm that the input layers of these systems are turned off any time you use a wheel, regardless of the steering setting.

The idea that they are meant to be the same is an assumption somebody made that seems to have stuck and now people think it's fact.


I made this post on the FM forums;

Normal steering has some sort of input manipulation that helps reduce massive weight transfers, wich helps keep the car more stable and easier to control. If one is testing FFB then this false sense of control could give someone a false sense of the FFB as the game is helping control the car and not the FFB.

T10Driver liked this post, you can see for yourself on his profile. Why would he like it if it made no sense?

 

[ImaRobot]

The idea that they are meant to be the same is an assumption somebody made that seems to have stuck and now people think it's fact.

Assumption? It says it directly in that quote.

It says that simulation steering turns off those systems for pads. Then goes on to say that when using a wheel, that those systems are automatically turned off regardless of what system you're using. Essentially meaning it's the same.

T10Driver liked this post, you can see for yourself on his profile. Why would he like it if it made no sense?

Who knows, why don't you go ask him?

 

[Blue028]

Assumption? It says it directly in that quote.

It says that simulation steering turns off those systems for pads. Then goes on to say that when using a wheel, that those systems are automatically turned off regardless of what system you're using. Essentially meaning it's the same.

Who knows, why don't you go ask him?

Read it carefully, there are "multiple systems" that create Normal steering, simulation steering removes those systems, (edit: nowhere is it mentioned that its only removed for pads) "input layers of these systems" are removed when you use a wheel, notice "the input layers of these sysems " (plural) there are still other systems (physics layers) working if you have normal steering turned on, they are removed when you turn simulation steering on.

I have asked him, he has not been on for nearly a month

 

[ApparitionLOD]

Assumption? It says it directly in that quote.

It says that simulation steering turns off those systems for pads. Then goes on to say that when using a wheel, that those systems are automatically turned off regardless of what system you're using. Essentially meaning it's the same.

Who knows, why don't you go ask him?

I read that as him talking about the speed sensitivity and maximum steering angle allowed while using a controller. That might have to do with what I had mentioned in another thread about not being able to turn the wheel more than 90 degrees at any speed using normal steering without breaking past the available tire friction in a given corner. If you play using a controller you will notice that so long as you're close to the "optimal" speed for any given corner that you can hold the joystick at max range and go around it perfectly. This is what is often referred to as the secret sauce that makes Forza so good with a controller. Play any other game like pCARS with a controller and you can't do this.

So if there is a bug with the input while using a steering wheel then if anything I think that it is with normal steering, not simulation steering; that the extra layers programmed to be used with a controller are not being disabled when using a wheel.

 

[skazz]

I read that as him talking about the speed sensitivity and maximum steering angle allowed while using a controller. That might have to do with what I had mentioned in another thread about not being able to turn the wheel more than 90 degrees at any speed using normal steering without breaking past the available tire friction in a given corner. If you play using a controller you will notice that so long as you're close to the "optimal" speed for any given corner that you can hold the joystick at max range and go around it perfectly. This is what is often referred to as the secret sauce that makes Forza so good with a controller. Play any other game like pCARS with a controller and you can't do this.

So if there is a bug with the input while using a steering wheel then if anything I think that it is with normal steering, not simulation steering; that the extra layers programmed to be used with a controller are not being disabled when using a wheel.

However.... Removing those extra layers (as in sim steering) exposes underlying issues with the game's physics. It seems like there are exaggerated weight transfer effects combined with insufficient self-aligning torque being simulated, making it REALLY hard to counter-steer when using a wheel and sim steering in Forza.

So while there might be a bug with normal steering and wheels, that doesn't mean that it's a good idea to correct the bug unless they also fix the underlying problems.

 

[ImaRobot]

Read it carefully, there are "multiple systems" that create Normal steering, simulation steering removes those systems, (edit: nowhere is it mentioned that its only removed for pads)

Yeah, there are multiple systems, which he quite literally notes that they get removed upon using simulation steering on pad, or when using a wheel regardless of steering selection. It starts out the first part of the quote specifically talking about pads, so that first few lines are actually about pads, as you can see he splits to wheels later into the paragraph.

There are multiple systems layered together to create Normal steering. Forza is known for being controllable and natural on a gamepad and these system are a major component of that feeling.

So, these systems are a major component to that feeling, the feeling of controlabillity and the natural state of the gamepad. Since he hasn't mentioned wheels until the next sentence, he also says right after that simulation will remove those systems(still talking about pad users here).

He then goes on to say

I'll also confirm that the input layers of these systems are turned off any time you use a wheel, regardless of the steering setting.

He quite literally says that the systems are removed on wheel, regardless of what you're using. Those systems that help pad users on "normal" steering input. They are turned off, even if you're using normal steering, therefore making normal and simulation steering the same on wheels, or at least its supposed to, hence the bugs and issues they are trying to work out.

I have asked him, he has not been on for nearly a month

Thats a shame. Whatever the case, it's just a "like." I like all kinds of things for different reasons, and unless you actually know why, there's no need to make leaps and bounds. It sounds straight forward to me. Pad has dampers in place in normal steering that help smoothen the inputs you give it, to over simplify it, and simulation will remove them. Wheel users don't get those same systems at all, as soon as you plug in the wheel, regardless of what you choose.

So if there is a bug with the input while using a steering wheel then if anything I think that it is with normal steering, not simulation steering; that the extra layers programmed to be used with a controller are not being disabled when using a wheel.

Sure, but I never claimed otherwise. It could go either way, regardless, theres a bug within the selection of steering modes, whether it be normal or simulation. There should be no difference, as like you said, they should be removed when using a wheel all together.

 

[CSLACR]

Yeah, there are multiple systems, which he quite literally notes that they get removed upon using simulation steering on pad, or when using a wheel regardless of steering selection. It starts out the first part of the quote specifically talking about pads, so that first few lines are actually about pads, as you can see he splits to wheels later into the paragraph.
So, these systems are a major component to that feeling, the feeling of controlabillity and the natural state of the gamepad. Since he hasn't mentioned wheels until the next sentence, he also says right after that simulation will remove those systems(still talking about pad users here).

He then goes on to say

He quite literally says that the systems are removed on wheel, regardless of what you're using. Those systems that help pad users on "normal" steering input. They are turned off, even if you're using normal steering, therefore making normal and simulation steering the same on wheels, or at least its supposed to, hence the bugs and issues they are trying to work out.


Thats a shame. Whatever the case, it's just a "like." I like all kinds of things for different reasons, and unless you actually know why, there's no need to make leaps and bounds. It sounds straight forward to me. Pad has dampers in place in normal steering that help smoothen the inputs you give it, to over simplify it, and simulation will remove them. Wheel users don't get those same systems at all, as soon as you plug in the wheel, regardless of what you choose.


Sure, but I never claimed otherwise. It could go either way, regardless, theres a bug within the selection of steering modes, whether it be normal or simulation. There should be no difference, as like you said, they should be removed when using a wheel all together.

I'll leave the controller out, because I think everyone's agreed the difference on that.

With a wheel:
Why do I feel a slight form of stability control with it on normal?
Why does it feel like I have to turn in earlier than I should, to hit the apex, if there is no delay?
Why do I crash less with it set to normal? (less likely to spin out, in particular)

I think the main issue, is that turning everything off (simulation) shows some physics errors. It seems to be rooted in weight transfer, and particularly affects rear-heavy cars, like Porsche's.

 

[ImaRobot]

With a wheel:
Why do I feel a slight form of stability control with it on normal?
Why does it feel like I have to turn in earlier than I should, to hit the apex, if there is no delay?
Why do I crash less with it set to normal? (less likely to spin out, in particular)

I don't know, I don't have a wheel. I was merely commenting on my take on the quote.

 

[CSLACR]

I don't know, I don't have a wheel. I was merely commenting on my take on the quote.

The quote does sound that way, but it definitely feels like there's a difference.