Round 9 / Rudi Raser

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Arwin

Arwin

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Hi Folks,

I have asked around after I saw this. It almost breaks my heart that I have to even ask, but at 3'58, the car goes outside of the white line. There are some extra bits of stones on that side, but I don't think they count as curbs? Or do they?

I kinda hope they do, but considering the discussions and rulings we've had for Midfield, Autumn Ring and Sears Point, I am worried.

Arwin
 
Arwin
Hi Folks,

I have asked around after I saw this. It almost breaks my heart that I have to even ask, but at 3'58, the car goes outside of the white line. There are some extra bits of stones on that side, but I don't think they count as curbs? Or do they?

I kinda hope they do, but considering the discussions and rulings we've had for Midfield, Autumn Ring and Sears Point, I am worried.

Arwin
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Well, concidering MidF, Autumn Ring and Sears Point, those zones doesn't sound like a rumblestrip. There's no special sound. It's if you were still running on the road, which is not the case with Rudi's run. We can clearly hear the specific sound to the rumblestrip.
 
maybe he is in the clear?


3.9.3: Long Races (more than 10 laps) and Long Track Races: Offs, Wall Touches, and non-beneficial AI Touches shall be assessed a penalty as follows:

2 or less Offs or Touches: no penalty
3 Offs or Touches: 0.5 second total penalty
4 Offs or Touches: 1.0 second total penalty
5 Offs or Touches: 2.0 second total penalty
6 Offs or Touches: 4.0 second total penalty
7 or more Offs or Touches: DQ

3.10 Failure to comply with the rules above, or failure to follow the specified car, setup, track, and race conditions for the Round, will result in a Did Not Finish (DNF) and zero points for the Round.
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Nurb seems like a long track to me :D


edit:

3.4: Track Definition: The 'Track' is defined as all paved areas, including curbs and rumble strips. This includes areas of cobblestone, sidewalk, bricks, or other alternate kinds of paving, and paved areas partially covered by dirt, sand, or gravel.
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.
 
But was it a race? I think hotlap isn't a race.

@mistral: 'sounds like rumble strip'? They are cobble stones. On the Ring, it is very clear when there are red and white curbs.

But I'm no longer going to comment on this, as I don't seem to be helping Rudi. :D
 
Ive seen the video and went to the spot in question and they are bricks,6 of them at the edge of the track.If this doesnt qualifiy as curbing per rule 3.4 then i dont know what does.

In the submission scenarios the "long tracks" are clearly defined as LeMans and Nurburg ring,i have no idea what the intent was with the lap totals at these two tracks.
 
3.4: Track Definition: The 'Track' is defined as all paved areas, including curbs and rumble strips. This includes areas of cobblestone, sidewalk, bricks, or other alternate kinds of paving, and paved areas partially covered by dirt, sand, or gravel.

3.4.1: The following surfaces are not considered 'Track' or paved areas: dirt, sand, gravel, grass, or mulch. Any area, paved or unpaved, delineated out of bounds by cones or temporary markers, such as stretches of track that shortcut a chicane, are not considered 'Track'. For flat paved areas with a painted track border (such as diagonal stripes or a solid line), the track side line of the border shall constitute the edge of the Track. At least two wheels must stay on the track side of (or touching) this line. If the entire car enters the border area, this will be deemed an Off.

3.4.4: Road Courses: All paved areas within and including concrete curbs, rumble strips, or painted borders are deemed 'Track' except as defined above. Paved areas beyond the outside edge of concrete curbs / rumble strips or the track side edge of painted borders are not considered 'Track' unless deemed allowable in the Scenario rules.

Is it just me or do rules 3.4 and 3.4.1(the part in red about the painted lines) contradict each other? Or am I reading it wrong? Does the rule 3.4.1 section in red refer to a track like Infenoen's back stretch where the yellow line defines the track?:confused:
 
CFM
3.4: Track Definition: The 'Track' is defined as all paved areas, including curbs and rumble strips. This includes areas of cobblestone, sidewalk, bricks, or other alternate kinds of paving, and paved areas partially covered by dirt, sand, or gravel.

3.4.1: The following surfaces are not considered 'Track' or paved areas: dirt, sand, gravel, grass, or mulch. Any area, paved or unpaved, delineated out of bounds by cones or temporary markers, such as stretches of track that shortcut a chicane, are not considered 'Track'. For flat paved areas with a painted track border (such as diagonal stripes or a solid line), the track side line of the border shall constitute the edge of the Track. At least two wheels must stay on the track side of (or touching) this line. If the entire car enters the border area, this will be deemed an Off.

3.4.4: Road Courses: All paved areas within and including concrete curbs, rumble strips, or painted borders are deemed 'Track' except as defined above. Paved areas beyond the outside edge of concrete curbs / rumble strips or the track side edge of painted borders are not considered 'Track' unless deemed allowable in the Scenario rules.

Is it just me or do rules 3.4 and 3.4.1(the part in red about the painted lines) contradict each other? Or am I reading it wrong? Does the rule 3.4.1 section in red refer to a track like Infenoen's back stretch where the yellow line defines the track?:confused:
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Thats the same thing i said to Arwin
 
Personally, I think this whole "white line" issue is pretty pissy. The only time the white line should come into play, is defining the pit in/pit out merge demarcation, like they do in the major real life series.

In this run (and samoht's from the previous round) it's sad that a driver can be on tarnmac as previously defined by every major OLR comp in the past, and yet those drivers are being considered "off" because of where the paint is? I understand the rules were set about this (barring the contradictions noted above), but is this really isn the spirit of OLR racing as we have come to know it?

Just MHO. The run should be deemed good.
 
If you count cobblestones the same as rumble strips, he's on. Only in the absence of rumble strips (or equivalent) does the white line matter, according to my undertanding of these rules.
 
This "white line" issue was brought on because when the rules were being formulated some people wanted more "realistic" boundaries to the track, and there wasn't a loud enough voice from the side that thinks OLR needs some "unrealistic" allowances.
 
So which one is it? Is the white line the end of the track, or are the cobblestones? I'll be the first to admit I don't seem to understand the way the rule is written in this case. It's obvious he's over the line but still on the cobbles, so basicaly it depends on the rule's interpretation? I don't have a problem with crossing the line personally, but if the rule says we can't then that's the way it is. I just hope our driver's run is legal, as I haven't watched it yet.:scared:
 
eggmann
This "white line" issue was brought on because when the rules were being formulated some people wanted more "realistic" boundaries to the track, and there wasn't a loud enough voice from the side that thinks OLR needs some "unreal" allowances.
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Here's my ruling and explanation from the Round 9 Resulsts thread:
Duke
I have not yet been able to view the video, but from looking at the still, it seems that 2 wheels are still on the cobblestones. I consider that cobble edging as "rumble strip" and so the run would still be clean even without the allowance.

I will review the entire lap as soon as I get a chance, though.

The intent of the White Stripe Rule was to control what was allowable at Infineon, Suzuka, and the other reconfigurable road courses that have acres of paving/runoff area around the intended course. I didn't want races run on those tracks to devolve into contests to find the fastest gimmick line.
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"the white and yellow lines can be ignored when there's a rumble strip touching them. In other words, the rumble strip is an extension of the track boundary beyond the painted line"

Cobblestones in this case are the same as a rumble strip I think, unlike citta di aria where the entire track is cobblestone.
 
bobkart
If you count cobblestones the same as rumble strips, he's on. Only in the absence of rumble strips (or equivalent) does the white line matter, according to my undertanding of these rules.
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Well, that's a good question. Are cobblestones rumble strips? I think that the track is pretty clear when it has real rumblestripes, with white-red stripes, as they're used plenty all over the track. But are the rules clear enough on this?

I can't match it with:

rules
Paved areas beyond the outside edge of concrete curbs / rumble strips or the track side edge of painted borders are not considered 'Track' unless deemed allowable in the Scenario rules.
Click to expand...

Are cobblestones concrete curbs / rumble strips? Or just paved area? I'm thinking the latter, comparing to the other curbs in the game, and to the location of them. Compare it to the corner immediately following the 3'58 spot. A clear white-red curb on the inside, and a red-white rumble strip/curb on the outside after as well.

Anyway, that's what the discussion will come down to:

"Are cobblestones considered concrete curbs / rumble strips, yes or no?"

Answering that question solves this issue. It always helps to have a clear question to answer.

However, its going to be interesting to hear what other drivers did - including by the way our own driver from GTTimes.com, because he doesn't have a maxdrive so we couldn't look at his run. :scared:

It does make a difference for your time, for sure, so it does matter now. Maybe team captains can inventorise with their own drivers what they did, to see where this will lead.
 
Duke
The intent of the White Stripe Rule was to control what was allowable at Infineon, Suzuka, and the other reconfigurable road courses that have acres of paving/runoff area around the intended course. I didn't want races run on those tracks to devolve into contests to find the fastest gimmick line.
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Yes, but for the sake of normalcy in the rules it also made it illegal to drive on some parts of those tracks and other tracks that would make sense to drive on. I realize this is a rule that can't perfect either way. At least we got the city tracks excluded. 👍


This might not be the right thread for this, but I wanted to get it out, and thought the highest number of the right people would see it here:


One thing I hope will change in BC6 is that all teams will take a more active role in pre-comp rules discussion. I think this discussion did a lot for making the BC5 (with its faults) run as smoothly as it has. Maybe people didn't notice the rule discussion because it wasn't done so thoroughly in public before. I know we were all trying to scrounge up teams at the time, but it minimally requires each captain's input.

At least four times in BC5 I've heard in-race or post-race complaints about the rules. The rules were available since June 7th - 2 months+ to print them out and read them while you're on the crapper, even get your highlighter out if needed. :sly: I'm not mad at anyone for voicing their opinions regardless of timing, but this late in the game it doesn't help much eggcept for next time.
 
eggmann
This might not be the right thread for this, but I wanted to get it out, and thought the highest number of the right people would see it here:


One thing I hope will change in BC6 is that all teams will take a more active role in pre-comp rules discussion. I think this discussion did a lot for making the BC5 (with its faults) run as smoothly as it has. Maybe people didn't notice the rule discussion because it wasn't done so thoroughly in public before. I know we were all trying to scrounge up teams at the time, but it minimally requires each captain's input.

At least four times in BC5 I've heard in-race or post-race complaints about the rules. The rules were available since June 7th - 2 months+ to print them out and read them while you're on the crapper, even get your highlighter out if needed. :sly: I'm not mad at anyone for voicing their opinions regardless of timing, but this late in the game it doesn't help much eggcept for next time.
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Yup, I said the same thing in one of the other threads. There was more than enough time for everyone to read over the rules and ***** about whatever they had a problem with before the comp even got started. No point crying now. Hopefully for BC6 more people will look over the rules ahead of time and make comments before races get underway.👍
 
Hey Duke,do these rules apply for this round or not.


Quote:
3.9.3: Long Races (more than 10 laps) and Long Track Races: Offs, Wall Touches, and non-beneficial AI Touches shall be assessed a penalty as follows:

2 or less Offs or Touches: no penalty
3 Offs or Touches: 0.5 second total penalty
4 Offs or Touches: 1.0 second total penalty
5 Offs or Touches: 2.0 second total penalty
6 Offs or Touches: 4.0 second total penalty
7 or more Offs or Touches: DQ

3.10 Failure to comply with the rules above, or failure to follow the specified car, setup, track, and race conditions for the Round, will result in a Did Not Finish (DNF) and zero points for the Round.
 
The problem with rule minutae is that until an actual situation arises, it's sometimes difficult to have a clear definition. Now, in the case of the white lines, the rules may (or may not?) have been clear, but when faced with an actual racing situation, the clarity may be come obfuscated...the case of Rudi's run (and, frankly, samoht's in Round 8) the replays show a driver clearly on what has been defined as "racing surface" but susceptable to DQ because of a painted line. The locations were both on outside turns, so no shortcutting was being attempted, merely a maintaining of control as the cars understeered to the outside of the acceptable racing surface. The didn't put two wheels off the acceptable racing surface. Should they be held to the strictest letter of an obscure rule, or be allowed to race. I think, the latter, in both cases.
 
Keep this things handy Ed since you get to sit in the big chair in BC6.Make a note also that all these things happened at "new" tracks,and that we didnt run the majority of the new one.
 
I do want to point out that it is up to the winning board to decide who gets to run the next BC. At least, that's been the tradition so far.
 
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