RX8 and Integra DC5 Type R differences

[Kent]

Ok, back from school and feeling cool.
I've got so much to say so let me just get down to it...

The RX-8 .vs. Integra Type R comparison is horrible.
For these reasons if nothing else...

The RX-8 is front-engine, rear-wheel drive.
The Integra Type R is front-engine, front-wheel drive.
This creates an incredible amount of difference in handling and that can lead to serious bias based on the driver's preffernce and abilities to drive each configuration.

The Honda Integra Type R '03 and all of the RX-8s come equipped stock with Sports Medium (S2) tires.
Any changes to tire type, especially different types for each test car, creates bias and can be considered skewing the results.

The price of the Honda Integra Type R is not compatible with

the various RX-8 models.
The honda sells for 25,900 Cr.
The RX-8 '03 sells for 24,000 Cr.
The RX-8 Type S sells for 27,500 Cr.
That makes a difference of 1,900 Cr. between the I.T.R. and the

'03 as well as a difference of 1,600 Cr. between the I.T.R. and the RX-8 Type S.
That makes the price based comparison go between the ITR and the Type S, not the normal '03 model RX-8.

The power and weight levels of these cars are not compatible.
(after oil changes)

Honda Integra Type R:
1170 KG/ 236 HP/ 4.951 PWR

RX-8:
1310 KG/ 221 HP/ 5.937 PWR

RX-8 Type S:
1310 KG/ 299 HP/ 4.378 PWR

This leaves the cheaper RX-8 at hefty disadvantage to the honda, while the RX-8 Type S carries a sizeable advantage over the Honda.

Combine all of those factors and you have an incompatible comparison.

My notes on the comparison:
Realizing the size of a comparison like this I decided test laps at the Ring were a bad idea. Instead I went with Tsukuba, a well-known track for me with areas that could give benefits to handling, weight, and power.

Upon testing I found that the RX-8s had no trouble with understeer. This was not the case with the ITR. Driving the Integra was a constant fight with understeer at any speed beyond the low-end of first gear.

Dispite the power and pwr differences between the "cheap RX-8" and the Integra, the Integra struggled to lap with the same lap times as the RX-8.
The Type-S RX-8 walked away as the fastest car with ease- no contest there!

However, here are my results.

Tsukuba (dry)
1'04.302 RX-8 Type S '03 (2 laps)
1'06.291 RX-8 '03 (4 laps)
1'06.958 Integra Type R DC5 '03 (6 laps, 2 failed laps)

Now try to keep in mind that the RX-8s didn't go off track once.
Also keep in mind that I enjoy FF racing... I currently have a 7'56.??? TRD Celica Ring lap recorded (so there's no lack of ability or personal interest ).

What does this all mean to me?
The Integra doesn't stack up to the most comprable RX-8 by a long shot and compared to the less costly, less powerful RX-8 '03 the Integra still falls short, but only by a small margin.

So what do you all think?
Should these cars have ever been compared and should they ever be compared in the future of GT4 racing?

I say no.

Feel free to discuss and disagree... No fanboy crap though!

Also, expect to see some Ring lap time comparisons from me later if I find the time.

Btw,

Integra Type R's (DC2 or DC5) are such great handling cars that they can easily hold they're own against any car with similar power outputs, be it FR or 4WD.

Obviously you don't remember this Best Motoring Touge Battle!
(ITR lost to S15 on both up and down hill).
(view thumbnail below )

Edit:
Last thing I forgot...
Not to say this can be trusted, but look at these...
http://www.rsportscars.com/eng/cars/mazda_rx8.asp
http://www.rsportscars.com/eng/cars/integra_type-r.asp

Interestingly enough, both cars are listed with 45 series, Z-rated tires.
Mazda on 18 inch wheels and Honda on 17 inch.
That doesn't seem like enough of a difference to make one car go on N2s and the other on N3s but whatever.

Edit: lap times...
N2 equipped RX-8 '03 (normal): 8'44.750 (2 laps)

Headed to try it with N3s just to get an honest comparison to the N3 equipped Integra.

btw, Mazda wins this hands down IMO.

 

[Eric.]

Keep in mind Kent that the RX-8 Type S appears to only exist in GT4.

 

[Kent]

Keep in mind Kent that the RX-8 Type S appears to only exist in GT4.

Keep in mind that it is irrelavant to the discussion since the normal RX-8 also lapped faster and more accurately than the Integra.

Plus, to compare a stock RX8 and a tuned Integra isn't exactly fair... We would be better off comparing the '05 MazdaSpeed RX-8.
http://www.rsportscars.com/eng/cars/mazdaspeed_rx8.asp

Also, I've just completed N3 laps.
RX-8 '03 (N3): 8'26.974

 

[Wolfe]

Keep in mind Kent that the RX-8 Type S appears to only exist in GT4.

The Type S is the high-horsepower model in Japan. In Europe it's named differently depending on the country, and it loses some of its power (emissions?), dropping it to 230hp. In the U.S. the Type-S is the manual-transmission model, and the automatic has the Type-E or base-model engine. Again, most likely due to emissions, the power is lower than the Japanese version.

Proof of the "Type-S" name's existence: http://www.rx-8.mazda.co.jp/spec5.html

 

[Kent]

The Type S is the high-horsepower model in Japan. In Europe it's named differently depending on the country, and it loses some of its power (emissions?), dropping it to 230hp. In the U.S. the Type-S is the manual-transmission model, and the automatic has the Type-E or base-model engine. Again, most likely due to emissions, the power is lower than the Japanese version.

Proof of the "Type-S" name's existence: http://www.rx-8.mazda.co.jp/spec5.html

That's sorta what I guessed at first but being a guess only I decided to step back and use the cheaper RX-8 for refferences.

In real life I can't say for sure about the RX-8 and ITR.
Never been in either.
Only driven Acuras and hondas (related to ITR) and nothing close on the mazda side.

Based on the enthusiasm "Clarkson" had for the RX8 I would have to say it's a nice ride.

On the subject of the thread...
Is this about the real life or GT4 differences?
Maybe I'll go back and read the first post again.

With relation to GT4?
I've said my piece.
Until I hear someone comeback and discuss my experiment and testing I will be in other threads.

Hope to come back soon,
Till then,
-

 

[Gabkicks]

I just fired up gt4 to see if this crazy talk of the dc5 being faster than the rx8 was true. I tested the cars on Tsukuba and Fuji Speedway (90's) to test low, medium, and high speed cornering and breaking. Below are the fastest times i got after 3 laps with n3 tires and no assists.

Tsukuba​

Rx8- the car has very good handling and nice suspension. A bit soft, but very responsive at low speeds. good engine response. after 3 laps i'd gotten my time down to 1'07.700 with a little sliding here and there.
time= 1'07.700 top speed= 100mph


Integra type r (DC5) - Either the 140kilo weight advantage or maybe more race oriented brakes allow me to brake much much later into the turn than the rx8.
A great deal of time is lost due to the slower exiting speed and the car cant hold as much speed through corners without getting tight. The more powerfull engine and lightweightedness ment much better accelleration once the front tires gained a decent amount of grip. The gearing was also more suited for tsukuba than the rx8.
Time= 1'08.413 top speed= 107mph

The rx8 is a much more fun car to drive. I was constantly trying to avoid understeer with carefull steering and throttle work while driving the DC5.
.................................................................

Fuji Speedway (90's)
​

RX8 - again the car shows very neutral and effortless handling; able to carry great speed through corners. the accelleration was not very good past 50mph. The 1st corner is easy to attack, but the engine's lack of power is felt at exit. the car does very well in the tighter, high g corners. I'm able to take the last turn full throttle with ease. there was very little excess wheelspin and staying on the ideal line was easy.


time=1'51.237 top speed=135mph


Integra type r(DC5) The integra's great breaking and good accelleration made it a better match for Fuji than the rx8. The integra was able to break very late into the 1st corner and reach the exit earlier. Tight corners and long, high g corners were difficult. The last corner takes some practice to take full throttle. The car seemed to be struggling more than the rx8 to keep traction and go where i willed it to.

time=1'50,797 top speed=144mph

 

[Scaff]

I just fired up gt4 to see if this crazy talk of the dc5 being faster than the rx8 was true. I tested the cars on Tsukuba and Fuji Speedway (90's) to test low, medium, and high speed cornering and breaking. Below are the fastest times i got after 3 laps with n3 tires and no assists.

Tsukuba​

Rx8- the car has very good handling and nice suspension. A bit soft, but very responsive at low speeds. good engine response. after 3 laps i'd gotten my time down to 1'07.700 with a little sliding here and there.
time= 1'07.700 top speed= 100mph


Integra type r (DC5) - Either the 140kilo weight advantage or maybe more race oriented brakes allow me to brake much much later into the turn than the rx8.
A great deal of time is lost due to the slower exiting speed and the car cant hold as much speed through corners without getting tight. The more powerfull engine and lightweightedness ment much better accelleration once the front tires gained a decent amount of grip. The gearing was also more suited for tsukuba than the rx8.
Time= 1'08.413 top speed= 107mph

The rx8 is a much more fun car to drive. I was constantly trying to avoid understeer with carefull steering and throttle work while driving the DC5.
.................................................................

Fuji Speedway (90's)
​

RX8 - again the car shows very neutral and effortless handling; able to carry great speed through corners. the accelleration was not very good past 50mph. The 1st corner is easy to attack, but the engine's lack of power is felt at exit. the car does very well in the tighter, high g corners. I'm able to take the last turn full throttle with ease. there was very little excess wheelspin and staying on the ideal line was easy.


time=1'51.237 top speed=135mph


Integra type r(DC5) The integra's great breaking and good accelleration made it a better match for Fuji than the rx8. The integra was able to break very late into the 1st corner and reach the exit earlier. Tight corners and long, high g corners were difficult. The last corner takes some practice to take full throttle. The car seemed to be struggling more than the rx8 to keep traction and go where i willed it to.

time=1'50,797 top speed=144mph

Nice work, its always nice to see what a difference a change of track makes.

Its also interesting to see how others view different cars, I personally foun dthe DC5 more fun to drive as it demanded much more from me to extract a good lap from it at the edge. I found the RX-8 enjoyable, but a bit to easy to drive; which I know may sound a bit strange.

Be boring if we all liked the same thing

Regards

Scaff

 

[Gabkicks]

i actually enjoyed the integra more on fuji because it was fun diving into corners hard on the breaks. the rx8 was so easy it was kinda boring.

with tsukuba the integra is just annoying with all the wheelspin at corner exit if I'm not carefull.

didnt the integra beat the rx8 type s badly on BMI?

 

[niky]

Like Kent said: we're butting into the issue of real-life versus GT4, and bear in mind that the handicap for FF cars in GT4 is enormous. (GT's merely average handling of driven front wheels) Hell, even AWD cars are handicapped by GT4's engine.

I'm not surprised about the results at Tsukuba vs. Fuji as Tsukuba has more constant radius corners in just the right configuration to limit power delivery for FF cars severely in the corners. Fuji is a more dynamic, flowing track, which would suit the Integra well.

The Integra would probably lose on tracks like Infineon (that long sloping downhill turrn will kill anything with even the slightest understeer) or SS. Probably win on tracks like El Capitan and Deep Forest, but maybe not.

As for the 'ring, I haven't done the RX-8 on the 'ring, Type-S or otherwise, but I've done the Integra. The 'ring features more transitions and esses, and very few high speed constant turns (Schwedenkreuz doesn't count, it's almost a straight!). As such, the Integra would probably beat both RX-8s there, with a lighter chassis (good for esses) and probably sufficient speed to hold off the Type-S on the final straight.

 

[Gabkicks]

i agree completely i try and avoid analyzing things in gt4... but sometimes i get drawn into it.

the ITR can hang with cars i know are faster than the rx8 on any track IRL, so the integra should be faster on tsukuba in GT4... but its not

quarter mile times are slow blah blah blah. we hit the same wall of realization the physics are flawed everytime.

 

[Kent]

Well, avoiding real life...
(Since, let's face it, in real life nearly anything is possible and there is always an exception for any rule!)

The Ring As A Test Course...
I've got a feeling the Type S will produce lower lap times in my hands than the Integra.

I did go back to the Integra tonight as to give it a more fair shake.
Still not the greatest, but I was able to pick up on some of the finer points.

Turn-in on braking is great so the car easily becomes a point and shoot, brake-n-gas car. Great brakes too. 👍

The throttle understeer still felt pretty bad.
Half throttle managed to help a bit, not enough though.

With time I am sure a Ring lap could be produced for the Integra but I wonder if justice can be done from my end.
Will my Integra work be representitive of the car's potential?

With that in mind, I am open to the challenge of matching or beating any GT4 Integra time using one of the two RX8s.

niky,
I am inclined to disagree with this statement...

As for the 'ring, I haven't done the RX-8 on the 'ring, Type-S or otherwise, but I've done the Integra. The 'ring features more transitions and esses, and very few high speed constant turns (Schwedenkreuz doesn't count, it's almost a straight!). As such, the Integra would probably beat both RX-8s there, with a lighter chassis (good for esses) and probably sufficient speed to hold off the Type-S on the final straight.

I don't really think the Integra can beat either RX-8, but in the right hands it may.

Anyone here care to take on the Regular RX8?
Some of my early ring lap work is already posted... Does anyone have times to use for the Honda?

Anyway... I'm out for now.
Back later once something has been thought up to settle this (although I think the RX8 is the hands down winner in gt4).

 

[Gabkicks]

^ yeah i was 10 seconds faster around the ring with the Integra. the rx8 just doesnt have enough power despite cornering much better. the lap with the integra was kinda sloppy though. I'm sure the dc5 is faster on the ring...

 

[Kent]

^ yeah i was 10 seconds faster around the ring with the Integra. the rx8 just doesnt have enough power despite cornering much better. the lap with the integra was kinda sloppy though. I'm sure the dc5 is faster on the ring...

Well, I'm not sure about this, but I have to say the opposite.

However, I bring tidings of news related to my offer from earlier!

RX-8 Type S:
Oil Change
N3 tires

Ring: 8'02.234 (replay clean and saved)

If anyone can get the N3 Integra down below 8 minutes this is the time to do it. 👍

I'm headed off to setup the Integra for a run at the ring.
We'll see how that goes then talk more.

For now though, I don't expect to see a winner (and that's why I would like to see the best Integra times possible from you all and not have to accept my weak ITR times ).

Back soon with those updates,
Till then,
-

 

[niky]

How weak are your ITR times?

I've got one 8:26.xxx on record with N3s and an oil change... not sure how close that is to the limit, but I might have two seconds or more in me... I'm not confident that's a good time. The best I've gotten in any FF is 8:21.xxx in a Ford Focus RS on N3s. I've gotten some 300hp FFs down below 8:20 with mild tuning and setting, but I think you can't really expect any FF car to do flat 8's on N-tires... there's just not enough traction out of corners in any FF to get there.

If that was a clean lap in the Type S, then I retract that... apparently, even light weight can't make the Integra faster than an RX8. Good call, Kent. 👍

What would be better is if you could ghost race the Integ with that RX8 and tell us where you're gaining your time.

 

[niky]

Addendum... (think this deserves another post)... Did anyone else happen to notice that the RX8 in the game has 285 hp before an oil change? After an oil change, it's about 299.

If it's a glitch in just my game, oh well... but if everyone else has it, then I can believe flat 8:00s with N3s... I was wondering how that car was so fast when I could only get a Clio V6 into the teens.

As we all know, in real life, the RX8 was supposed to be the 250 hp it is supposedLY in the game... BUT, thanks to emissions and reprogramming, it's actually 235hp for the top of the line in the US. Did the Japanese RX8 get the same knockdown? Even if it didn't, I don't believe the Japanese car is more than 250hp in real life... certainly NOT 285hp, if BMI managed to beat one with a 'teg.

A 235 hp RX8 vs a 220 hp Integra is a logical challenge... a 238 (after oil) hp Integra vs a 299 (after oil) hp RX8 is just silly. I thought it would be like with the Protege, same inflated claims of hp, but crappy power, but it's not. It pulls just like a 300 hp car. I just ghost raced my Integra with my Type S (no oil change) and I was walking away from it on the straights, even with the same cornering speeds.

Am currently running one in B-Spec to get the oil dirty and see how close to 250 I can get the Type S. I'd tune up the regular RX8, but it's got a smaller tire-mag combo.

 

[Gabkicks]

i was tired yesterday and used n1's on the nurburgring by accident. But i just tried with n3's and found it is faster.

i was talking about the normal rx8.

 

[DQuaN]

It's probably not that relevant to the discussion, but last night on Fifth Gear, they put an RX8 up against an Alfa GT V6.

The Alfa was about 10hp more powerful, and a bit heavier, plus being FF. But it was only 0.4 of a second off the RX8 lap time of 55.5 seconds.

They said this was down to the Alfa having stiffer, more race ready suspension than the RX8's softer Grand Touring set up.

Hope this helps your discussion.

 

[Kent]

Well...

Indeed my lap was clean and in the Type S on N3s (the 8'02 lap or whatever it was).

I may go back with N3s and try the regular RX-8 one more time.

However, just to point out a few things...
The regular RX-8 has a larger price difference with the ITR than the Type S.
The regular RX-8 has a larger PWR difference with the ITR than the Type S.

Finally, on a logical level, the regular RX-8 is a regular model without any tuning where as the Type S is a tuned ride, like-wise, the ITR is a tuned Integra.

Regardless of the real-life incidents between these two cars I am going to have to say that the RX-8 in GT4 is faster than the ITR (in most cases and in my opinion).

If we put them on Sports tires (S2 or S3) there is a chance that the Integra would do much better, however, for some reason everyone thinks of N tires as the way to go.
(I would never have thought an ITR spins its wheels like that in real life... based on my driving of Integras that is).

Since no one wants to use S tires for this sort of thing we will never know, or atleast, you all will not know.

Now about that ghost replay thing...
I will spend a bit of time racing the ITR against my ghost. 👍
Should be interesting.
However, I will probably take the time to get a good lap in the normal RX-8 first.

Also, just so you all know... I am a bad driver on N tires.
Never liked them, doubt I ever will... I'm just using them to appease the crowd.

Lastly...
In real life best motoring used the stock ITR to beat a stock RX-8?
If anyone knows the specifics I would love to hear them or even get a link to an mpeg file.
Specifically though, I would like to know the model of RX-8 because I can't imagine the high-end models lossing to the ITR... However, a base model might easily lose.

Oh well.
(btw, if you all know where to find MPEGs and not torrents, I've been dying to see the racing bonanza for a long time now)

 

[Gabkicks]

i'm pretty sure its in the rotary reborn episode... now if i could just find that damn dvd.. dunno where i put it

 

[Wolfe]

In the BMI video with the SE3P, DC5, and others at Tsukuba, the RX-8's best laptime was 1'11"66, and the ITR's best laptime was 1'09"67...

 

[skingg]

Wow I'm just gone a day and so many posts! Anyway sorry if I wasnt clear in my initial posts but yeah I was comparing a DC5 Type R and an RX8 Type S both in game and real life differences. I've rode in both, I felt the Type R was faster generally and the video in the link above also proved my point. Both cars were driven by professionals, Kurosawa Takuya in the RX8 Type S and Hattori Naoki in the Type R. And I agree with Kent here in that the RX8 Type S just seemed faster than the DC5 Type R in game, well in Tsukuba atleast since thats the only track I based my tests on. I havent done any other tests since I posted this thread. May do a couple laps when I have some free time with both cars again though. Anyway nice discussion this had turn out! 👍

 

[Scaff]

The server isn't particularly fast, but I've gotten most of my stuff from here.

Here's the BMI video with the DC5 and SE3P (and others) at Tsukuba :

http://rapidshare.de/files/7156981/...__Subaru_WRX_STi__Honda_Integra_Type.wmv.html

And for reference, in that video the RX-8's best laptime was 1'11"66, and the ITR's best laptime was 1'09"67.

Excellent stuff, I've been after that one for a while.

In reference to this thread, its worth looking very closely at the footcams for the ITR, just to see how late he gets on the throttle in the low gear corners.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Ryosuke_Gumna]

I'm not sure if many are familiar with these two cars here, but I kinda notice the differences between these two cars both in game and real life. I've sat in both of these cars before and can tell the Honda Integra Type R seems to be the quicker of the two despite the Mazda RX8 having more hp. Even in the Best Motoring DVDs, they've tested a stock RX8 on Tsukuba and the Type R smoked the RX8 pretty easily. But in game its another story. No matter how hard me and my friends tried, a stock RX8 can totally outrun the DC5 Type R. Seems the vtec isnt kicking in as much as I hoped it would have been in game! Or maybe they kinda overpowered the RX8 here. Nothing major here though, just sharing somethings I noticed. ><

Finally! I've been waiting for this thread. And yes, I only tried the DC5 Integra R vs. RX-8 Type S (Comforts Tired, both) in Tsukuba Circuit and the RX-8 won. I have no idea... I am myself a big Best MOTORing fans! 👍 I hope GT5 will fix this... In Rotary Reborn, the Integra Type R DC5 outrun the RX-8 Type S in Tsukuba because of it's gear ratio.

More information please 👍 👍 .

 

[Kent]

well thanks for the great download web site but I don't have the download speed for a 181mb download that I'm not crazy for seeing.

Also, I'm a big fan of racing flix.
That's where I've found all my bestmotoring footage (most of it atleast).

Unfortunately, they don't have the racing bonanza in anything other than torrent link form in their video forum.

I don't do torrents though.
Dial up slave here.

However, should you know where to find a solid single download of the gallardo, F430, Porsche racing bonanza I would be happy to put my pc up for the 12hour download (I only do that for vids I really want ).

Thanks again for the effort though.
Plus, for the mean time I can just watch the BM. Vol. 26 trailer with my orange gallardo and black porsche.

 

[niky]

Hmm... download that one when I get on my regular hookup.

No argument, the RX8 really kills the ITR in-game, but I'm bummed that it's not even a fair fight. (FF-handicap in-game + 40+ hp unfair boost). Still, I'd like feedback on what a "regular" RX8 on N3s or N2s does on the ring. I'm sitting my wife at the hospital for a while, so I can't really test it out.

And Kent, you're right, it'd be a bit fairer on S-tires, as FFs rotate much better on them... in fact, S-tires can induce oversteer in some FFs (?????). But, yeah, we're all sim-b*tches here, and we like to torture ourselves with Ns.

 

[Duke]

The server isn't particularly fast, but I've gotten most of my stuff from here.

Here's the BMI video with the DC5 and SE3P (and others) at Tsukuba :

http://rapidshare.de/files/7156981/...__Subaru_WRX_STi__Honda_Integra_Type.wmv.html

If these are pirate materials, I strongly suggest you remove the links. If they are legitimate, they're fine, but we don't condone or facilitate piracy of copyrighted materials at GTPlanet.

 

[Wolfe]

If these are pirate materials, I strongly suggest you remove the links. If they are legitimate, they're fine, but we don't condone or facilitate piracy of copyrighted materials at GTPlanet.

I suppose the fact that the video is available on DVD in the U.S. makes it pirated, so the links have been removed.

 

[niky]

Awww... but anyway... from what I've seen, it appears that the RX8 has less straightline speed than the 240 hp S2000 and the 220 hp Integra... so it's likely that in real-life, it really is just 235hp... even in the Japanese version.

I'm betting with 250 hp (=235+oil change) it would be maybe just ten to twelve seconds faster around the 'ring instead of over twenty.