Save the Manuals!

Murcie_LP640
Volkswagen lost an estimated $600m on a recent recall of 384,000 units of Volkswagen Group vehicles equipped with a 7-speed DSG in China alone.
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Is that really relevant? DSG is new technology (which I'd classify as neither auto or manual).

Murcie_LP640
Despite this I doubt this information will not sway you with regards to transmission reliability just as your witness testimony to a single manual transmission failure will not sway pro-manual drivers. It's all a Catch 22.
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Pop quiz.

Two random run-of-the mill American made cars of the same make and model have had 10,000 miles attempted to be put on it for each of 18 years. It has only had the transmission fluid changed, no other service performed. One of the cars has a manual transmission, the other an automatic. You do not know who has driven the car before you, but you know that there have been multiple owners.

Which car is more likely to be running?
 
Two 18 year old American cars?

Trick question - they've both been recycled under cash for clunkers.
 
If you're buying an 18-year-old American car, you're probably not very picky. You're choosing the one with the least rat poop in it.

180,000 miles on it...probably would choose the manual one. My experience tells me the automatic transmission has never been serviced, and its one of the highest fragility-to-expense-ratio parts on a vehicle. A clutch replacement is usually cheaper than any rebuilt tranny.

Whatever, you're firmly encamped in your position, anyhow.
 
Bodyguard
Alright, I apologise; I should rephrase that: "The best drivers use MT". Of course, this is only my opinion, but why would you visit this thread if you're an AT driver?
Anyway, my point is that the best drivers out there (Senna, Whiddett, Tuerck, etc) all use MT, so how could you argue with that evidence? I believe it proves that MT is superior. However, this is only my opinion.
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Except you can be an excellent driver and drive an auto. The act of driving is way more involved then just choosing a gear, you have to know how a car behaves as a whole.

And why would an auto driver visit this thread? I don't know, it's a public forum and it's a topic people might want to discuss? I own two cars, one with a manual and one with an auto. I believe manuals have their place, but they aren't superior to autos necessarily.
 
An automatic car will leave you stranded simply because someone left a light on and drained the battery. I still find that pathetic.
 
You dont need a licence in order to drive a car. Besides my mom, sat in the passenger seat and I drove it on the countryside, where there were no cars, basicly an empty track so to speak. No need to exaggerate.
 
Pupik
180,000 miles on it...probably would choose the manual one.
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I'd be inclined to agree, with the following caveat:

I don't know how well used cars in the U.S. stand up to 180k miles, but that's at the upper end of the scale for UK used cars. At 180k I'd be buying solely on condition and as much history as possible alone - and damn the transmission, paintwork shade, trim materials and specification.

Save for the best-maintained examples, 180k on a used car in the UK will more often than not be utterly shagged.

Unless it's an MX-5, which seem to crank past 200k quite happily if they've not rusted into oblivion :D In which case the default option is manual, since only halfwits buy automatic MX-5s.

Or a 1970s-1980s Mercedes, in which case you'd go for the automatic because only halfwits buy manual Mercedes.
 
homeforsummer
I don't know how well used cars in the U.S. stand up to 180k miles, but that's at the upper end of the scale for UK used cars...

...Save for the best-maintained examples, 180k on a used car in the UK will more often than not be utterly shagged.
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There's no MOT here. I'm sure what counts for "working class" transport over here would fail your test before the inspector even opened the bonnet. If it can move under its own power, we drive it. ;)

So it would depend on what counts as "utterly shagged."
 
homeforsummer
Save for the best-maintained examples, 180k on a used car in the UK will more often than not be utterly shagged.
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Not sure if I agree with that.. buying £500 to £1000 BMW's on eBay is how I keep myself motoring, and even with average maintenance (at best - hence the price range) the only one that ended up classed as utterly shagged was the E34 525i Tourer - that made it past the quarter million mark before it failed to perform. edit: in context, the clutch wore out.
 
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Danoff
Is that really relevant? DSG is new technology (which I'd classify as neither auto or manual).
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It's more relevant to the overall reliability of a transmission type, even if it is a third type rather than one of the other two, than a singular example of a manual transmission failing.

Danoff
Two random run-of-the mill American made cars of the same make and model have had 10,000 miles attempted to be put on it for each of 18 years. It has only had the transmission fluid changed, no other service performed. One of the cars has a manual transmission, the other an automatic. You do not know who has driven the car before you, but you know that there have been multiple owners.
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That depends entirely on which run of the mill American-made car it was. 180,000 miles on, say, a second generation Taurus, were more likely than not neatly divided over 2 transmissions, and the 3rd one is about ready to be needed.
 
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Danoff
Is that really relevant? DSG is new technology (which I'd classify as neither auto or manual).
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I felt it should have been more relevant to you than anyone else on this topic :)

Danoff
Pop quiz.

Two random run-of-the mill American made cars of the same make and model have had 10,000 miles attempted to be put on it for each of 18 years. It has only had the transmission fluid changed, no other service performed. One of the cars has a manual transmission, the other an automatic. You do not know who has driven the car before you, but you know that there have been multiple owners.

Which car is more likely to be running?
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10,000mi ain't that much :sly: I've also seen your example several times with various generations of Commodore. Quick hint, I'm the wrong person to be asking this because it won't line up with your train of thought.
 
Bodyguard
Alright, I apologise; I should rephrase that: "The best drivers use MT". Of course, this is only my opinion, but why would you visit this thread if you're an AT driver?
Anyway, my point is that the best drivers out there (Senna, Whiddett, Tuerck, etc) all use MT, so how could you argue with that evidence? I believe it proves that MT is superior. However, this is only my opinion.
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Here's where your examples all prove zero point.
Senna drove in an era of Formula 1 where the cars were only manual gearboxes. Beyond that, his skills were not a result of his transmission choice. The odds were that Senna in any type of car, manual or automatic, would probably be an amazing driver because of his car control. The sheer fact he could do it in a F1 car with a manual only added to that amazement, but did not define it.

Whiddett & Tuerck hold zero value to your point because they compete in arguably, the last & only type of motorsport where a manual does still have an advantage; drifting. However, because it is drifting, the decision to call them some of the best drivers out there is laughable; Ken Block is widely hyped as an amazing driver, but in the one form of motorsport were drifting is still present & usable (rallying), he's actually nowhere near that great.

If we want to go by what the best drivers in the world are using & present Formula 1 drivers, what kind of transmission is Alonso & Vettel using again? What transmission does Kristensen use again in his motorsport?

Oh right, not a manual in the sense of a clutch & a 6-speed gearbox. Attempting to prove that the "best" drivers in the world use a manual gearbox based on what their racecars used is downright stupid, esp. in this day & age where the manual gearbox is nowhere near a considerable option in motorsport.
 
The "motorsport argument" is rather weak, because technology drove the decision to switch to semi-automatic transmissions; faster shifting reaction times lowered lap times, and made drivers less prone to accidental up/down-shifts (5th to 2nd, 1st to 3rd?...Oops). The drivers have virtually no say in the matter, except for certain set-up parameters which they can control.

NASCAR basically chooses manuals due to their low cost (and probably because it's set in the rules).

Williams actually dabbled with a CVT transmission that supposedly made their FW14B/FW15 even more potent during winter testing, but the FIA ruled those verboten (along with a host of other technologies) before the 1994 season.

 
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Wolfe
An automatic car will leave you stranded simply because someone left a light on and drained the battery. I still find that pathetic.
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I've never seen that leave someone stranded. I myself have had a dead battery, and it has never prevented me from getting where I'm going.
 
If you're out alone in the middle of nowhere, that might be an issue.












Of course, then there'd be nobody to push-start the car for you.
 
Danoff
I've never seen that leave someone stranded. I myself have had a dead battery, and it has never prevented me from getting where I'm going.
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Funny thing, I myself have driven manual cars for 10 years, and they've never broken the transmission and prevented me from getting where I'm going.
niky
Of course, then there'd be nobody to push-start the car for you.
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With a curb weight of ~2400lbs. and only one driven axle, I could push my E30 up a slight incline myself. The Legacy is tougher but I was still able to give it a try (by myself) when the fuel pump died.

With a flat-ish space and room to roll, I'm good.
 
I just keep jumper cables in my car and have a battery box for when I go in long trips, seems to be a pretty straight forward, easy solution, especially since everyone should have jumper cables in their car to begin with.
 
MatskiMonk
Not sure if I agree with that.. buying £500 to £1000 BMW's on eBay is how I keep myself motoring, and even with average maintenance (at best - hence the price range) the only one that ended up classed as utterly shagged was the E34 525i Tourer - that made it past the quarter million mark before it failed to perform. edit: in context, the clutch wore out.
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I'm not sure where:

Me
180k on a used car in the UK will more often than not be utterly shagged.
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...doesn't apply even despite your added information.

I already gave the MX-5 as an example of a car that'll happily do more - and (some) BMWs are another exception. A six-cylinder BMW is one of few cars I'd buy well into stratospheric mileage, though down at the sort of budget you're talking it's increasingly hard to find one which hasn't been owned by some half-witted oik and bounced sideways off lamp-posts for the past few years.
 
How come every time someone bumps this thread, it's to express an extreme viewpoint that just makes the entire discussion more and more partisan.
 
Tornado
How come every time someone bumps this thread, it's to express an extreme viewpoint that just makes the entire discussion more and more partisan.
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Uh, I just read it as "likes and prefers manual transmissions". Nobody else's opinions were even mentioned.

No need to get up in arms about it.
 
Lets be honest, it's not like someone's going to turn up with a fresh argument or new viewpoint is it... as has been said a number of times before... if you want to 'save the manuals' buy a brand spanking new one from the manufacturer, and make sure they know you bought it because it's a manual... then post about it in here... anything else is just an opinion that doesn't matter for squat in the 'war' between Manual and Auto.
 
MatskiMonk
Lets be honest, it's not like someone's going to turn up with a fresh argument or new viewpoint is it... as has been said a number of times before... if you want to 'save the manuals' buy a brand spanking new one from the manufacturer, and make sure they know you bought it because it's a manual... then post about it in here... anything else is just an opinion that doesn't matter for squat in the 'war' between Manual and Auto.
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I did that last year. Well, I didn't tell Mazda I bought it because it was a manual, but I was looking for a new, fun to drive, good commuter car with a stick. I discovered that MT Mazda 3s could even be found on dealer lots, so I bought one.
 

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