Say Hello to Aerodynamics

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RacyBacy
I wasn't aware that the A2 had a phenomenal list of problems. I heard that it was well made and had good reliabilty? I don't like the car anyway design wise but I heard they are destined to be classics though!
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Indeed - all classics sold poorly.

It's astonishingly expensive - base model is £13,400. It comes with a range of engines from a 1.4-1.5 4 cylinder petrol to a 1.4 3 cylinder diesel (£16,000 for a 3-cylinder diesel. Wowser).

However, it will seat four and return decent fuel economy (46-65mpg quoted) as it's entirely made from aluminium and has a low Cd. As pointed out.

It's also mind-alteringly badly screwed together. Every component rattles - you get a decent orchestra at the end of every trip. It's almost Renault-like (but not quite - let's not push it here). But that's not the worst part - the worst part is the stability. Jeremy Clarkson commented that if you turn the wipers on, the car rocks about underneath them. Now while I acknowledge he was just after a cheap laugh, he wasn't all that far off the mark. Just make sure none of your passengers are feeling slightly flatulent.

I hate them, and I point and laugh every time I see one on our roads.


It sounds like I don't like Audi much, but I actually do. I just have an antipathy towards the TT and A2. :D
 
Umm in my opinion the Dodge Viper competition coupe looks very slippery, what are the aerodynamic rqtings on those?
 
neon_duke
Actually, that's wrong. Stock cars - both the production vehicles and the "stock" NASCAR silhouettes - have millions of dollars in aerodynamic research done on them. In the case of NASCAR, the rules prohibit airfoil-type wings, which is why they have a spoiler rather than a wing.
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So they could change the shape of the cars? Hmm....never knew that. I thought they must be the same as the real street cars.

So now does it means it just have to look LIKE the street version?
 
ND4SPD
Umm in my opinion the Dodge Viper competition coupe looks very slippery, what are the aerodynamic rqtings on those?
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Before I looked, I knew the Viper would have a crap Cd figure. It has a massive frontal area with vents all over it. These do not give good Cd figs.

I did a search on google. Viper Competition Coupe has a Cd of 0.40. That's rubbish.
 
daan
But my wider tyres would probably account for the 0.01 discrepancy. I'd rather have better handling, than slippy aerodynamics. I also have the power to overcome the extra drag.

:D :dopey:

And Victor, a NASCAR is not too stramlined tho' is it? It's got a great big barn door stuck to it's boot.
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If you mean restrictor plate as in barn door, keeping speeds at 190 rather than 230-240 at the big tracks (Daytona, Talladega) then yep, it's stuck between the carburetor and intake manifold :D

Dorifto^ :lol:
 
TsLeng
So they could change the shape of the cars? Hmm....never knew that. I thought they must be the same as the real street cars.

So now does it means it just have to look LIKE the street version?
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Sadly, all manufacturers have to follow a 'common template' that makes all the cars's noses, and rooflines look alike. I wish Brian France would just give out a list of a dimentions, tell Chevy, Ford and Dodge "Here's the specs. This is all you need to follow" and let 'em loose on the aero design. Also: The Car of Tomarrow, the new template for all NASCAR makes, which should be on the Nextel circuit in 2005-2006, is going to be even blockier and larger than the current car for aero (slow it down a bit) and safety reasons (more impact or 'crush' area, driver 4" closer to the center) , and with this new car speeds should be down quite a bit, the aerodynamics I heard are about as good as a Craftsman Truck's.
 
Victor Vance
If you mean restrictor plate as in barn door, keeping speeds at 190 rather than 230-240 at the big tracks (Daytona, Talladega) then yep, it's stuck between the carburetor and intake manifold :D
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No, I meant that big yellow wing thing attached to the rear of the car you posted.

boot = trunk
 
I seriously doubt that any NASCAR team spends a fraction of the windtunnel budget that a F1 team spends.

The Lotus Elise and Exige are basically the same, the Elise has a removable hard top to replace the open/soft-top/targa roof, but has 'flying-buttresses' which may make it slightly less aerodynamic than the smoother rear engine cover of the Exige, but the Exige has the big rear wing that creates drag.
 
I'm not sure if they said it was the lowest drag co. of sedans or all cars. It would be hard to believe if it was all cars. I don't understand the "dimples" underneath the car either?

Lexus LS430 drag co. of .28(I think?)

2020_4mg.jpg
 
TsLeng
So they could change the shape of the cars? Hmm....never knew that. I thought they must be the same as the real street cars.

So now does it means it just have to look LIKE the street version?
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They're just like any other silhouette formula - they have the same basic shape (as in 3 boxes, and nothing more than that) as the street car, but that's all. The rooflines and profile lines are carefully determined and dictated by the sanctioning body, ie NASCAR. NASCAR has templates on hand at tech inspection and they will pass them over each car to make sure it complies.

Again, rules restrictions prohibit airfoils and ground effects (other than air dams), so no, NASCAR teams don't spend the F1 millions on complicated downforce pakages - they're not allowed to. But they do spend a lot of money maximizing the aerodynamics of the shell templates.
 
daan
No, I meant that big yellow wing thing attached to the rear of the car you posted.

boot = trunk
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That's called a rear spoiler... ever heard of it? It's incorporated into a couple production cars, the Monte Carlo SS and third generation F-Bods ('F-3's') have rear spoilers incorporated into them. Yes, it's for added drag and to keep the rear tires glued to the road. It's also the reason a car can get aero-loose. I actually prefer the decklid spoiler look over a wing :D

Edit: There are a couple of others like the Pontiac Grand Prix 2+2 and Mercury Cyclone Spoiler but thats all I can think of. I just got back from a 7-hour road trip from Upstate N.Y. and I'm tired. Goodnight :)
 
Victor Vance
That's called a rear spoiler... ever heard of it? It's incorporated into a couple production cars, the Monte Carlo SS and third generation F-Bods ('F-3's') have rear spoilers incorporated into them. Yes, it's for added drag and to keep the rear tires glued to the road.
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Is it? I never knew that. :rolleyes:
 
JohnBM01
None of us were born when the automobile was patented in 1886 (according to the Mercedes-Benz 2004 catalog). In the past, the automobile was new. Cars of the past had basically NO aerodynamics. As Speed Channel show "Car Crazy" had as a question, some automobile makers had a sort of sun visor for aerodynamic performance. Now, let's head into the 20th Century. Ford's Model T in the early 1900s surely wasn't as aerodynamic as today's cars, but it was a functional machine to take around. With the debut of the 24 Hours of Le Mans back around the 1920s, the cars looked less boxy and shown off some very classic and very lovely designs. After the end of World War 2 in 1945, cars appeared to look more modern as some sweet designs came about. Then enter the muscle car days. The cars were all about horsepower. And this was true about the Camaro, the Firebird/Trans-AM, the GTO, the Cobra, and of course, the Mustang to name a few. Car design shown improvement a few years into 1970. And with subtle improvements, 1980s came along and went. The 1990s had wonderful designs, and now into the 21st Century, aerodynamics will get better and better.

So GTPlanet, this thread about aerodynamics. Talk about cars with good and/or bad aerodynamics, stylish designs with wonderful drag coefficients (CD), and things like that.

One of my favorite aerodynamic cars is the Peugeot 406. This machine was very elegant, not to mention hellishly aerodynamic. It was raced before in the BTCC (British Touring Car Championship) with Steve Soper and company, but it's one of my favorites. But never mind my favorites... this is a thread for YOU! So let's reply, shall we?
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You mentioned muscle cars weren't aerodynamic (or atleast attempts at aerodynamicy), did you forget the Aero Warriors?

Ford Torino Talladega (1969)
31616.jpg

Ford Torino Cobra (1970)
71ford01.jpg

Mercury Cyclone Spoiler (1969)
BC_FrSMALL.jpg

Mercury Cyclone Spoiler 'II' (1970)
GEORGE-GRIGORIS.jpg

Ford King Cobra (1971 proposed)
ford-kingcobra-1970a.jpg


While FoMoCo's aero attempts were originally mild, Mopar held no bars.

Dodge Charger Daytona
daytona.jpg

Plymouth RoadRunner Superbird
superbird.jpg


FoMoCo's story
These cars were built with one purpose in mind: To win races through aerodynamics. About around time drivers were learning the art of drafting these large bricks and manufacturers, namely Ford Motor Company and Chrysler Corporation, were learning you can't just go fast with horsepower. However there was a catch; In racing, you have to have a near-identical production model on the streets. Ford went pretty minor, giving the Torino and Cyclone a new nose, hoping to help on aerodynamics. It failed. While Ford won the 1969 Daytona races, Chrysler promptly took Ford to school with 5 Wing Cars in the top 5 at the inaugural race at Talladega. Ford could see that Chrysler were on their game and building momentum, so they promptly added new, more aerodynamic nose pieces to the 1970 Torino and dubbed it 'Cobra'. The Cyclone Spoiler also got a new nose. Again, disaster. Although Ford won the Daytona 125 qualifiers, when it was game time for the 500, it was the same song, new year. The Top 6: Dodge, Dodge, Dodge, Dodge, Plymouth, Dodge. Donnie Allison played his cards right and managed to win the July Firecracker 400 at Daytona, but 5 Wing Cars were in his rearview with FoMoCo nowhere in sight. The Talladega had 4 FoMoCo cars in the top 10, but Petty Enterprises driver Pete Hamilton, in a Plymouth, won the race. Ford had enough. A new project was promptly put into action: King Cobra. Ford was looking at the latest sports car designs from Italy and had a plan: Slap it, the nose on the Torino. It sounded perfect: A low-slung nosethat sloped up for high downforce. Early wind tunnel tests revealed it was considerably more aerodynamic than the Daytona. However, at an EPA Board Meeting in 1970, someone pointed out to Ford's head at the time, Henry Ford II (I think), that Ford was pouring millions, not only into their high-bank program, but also into Trans-Am, and Le Mans. In an attempt to get prepared for the new 1974 smog regulations, ford announced in November that they would immideiately pull their entire racing program, including Project King Cobra. Only 10 or so prototypes were built, and they are the only ones left today.

Mopar's Story
Chrysler took a look at the then-aerodynamic C2 Sting Ray nose and decided t improve upon it, extending the Charger and Roadrunner's noses by approximately 22 inches, there were intakes on different spots to provide only the amount of engine cooling that was neccecary. There were curves added for downforce and since headlamps aren't used in racing, gave the cars neat flip-up jobs. Big rear wings were added, not to have the trunk clear the wing, but rather, to eliminate "Aero loose', by using the portion of the car's airstream at the roofline, if a car was drafting you he would be taking air off of your car closer to the bumper you wouldn't get aero loose like you would today. They were wonderful. In late 1970 Chrysler was supposedly developing a wild project car dubbed 'Red Baron', but Bill France saw the cars 'Too Aerodynamic' (ha!) and limited engine displacement to 325 c.i. or less, thus killing the Wing Cars. The Red Baron never made it past the drawing board.
 
As I've stated, one of the most beautiful cars in the world is the Peugeot 406. I don't know what drag coefficient it has, but it's pretty sweet with its aerodynamics. I'll have to read more about its stats counting, of course, the drag coefficient. Aerodynamics had to be increased for the 406 touring car.
 
That 1-Litre VW is a concept car that was driven by the head of VW some time back to a board meeting or something of the sort im pretty sure. It is the most fuel efficient car on earth aparently.

Also, since when have drag coefficients been the be-all and end-all of aerodynamics? Downforce achievable with the least drag would be much more telling.
 
JohnBM01
As I've stated, one of the most beautiful cars in the world is the Peugeot 406. I don't know what drag coefficient it has, but it's pretty sweet with its aerodynamics. I'll have to read more about its stats counting, of course, the drag coefficient. Aerodynamics had to be increased for the 406 touring car.
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John, the Peugeot 406 coupe drag coefficient has already been discussed in this very thread:

Famine
Apparently, my car has a Cd of 0.31, and daan's has a Cd of 0.32.
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Although it looks aerodynamic, other cars which don't have the beautiful sleekness of the 406 coupe have a better Cd ... oddly enough.
 
By doing a quick search, I learned the drag coefficient is 0.32. But after a quick search on another car from Peugeot, I learned about the Peugeot 407. The CD (drag coefficient), as I hear, is told to be 0.27. Say what you want about this car, but imagine this car at speed through the wind!

http://www.automobilemag.com/auto_shows/2003_fms_407elixir/
The Peugeot 407 Elixir
 
RacyBacy
Although it looks aerodynamic, other cars which don't have the beautiful sleekness of the 406 coupe have a better Cd ... oddly enough.
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The phrase "**** off!" springs to mind :lol:

My car is very beautiful, and very sleek. You've hurt her feelings now. The only reason it has a higher Cd than it otherwise might is that it isn't very long - 13'10". Although I agree that daan's 406 is one of the best-looking cars to come out of France that isn't an MVS... :D

John - it looks like a filter feeder. On the road it looks even worse.
 
Famine
The phrase "**** off!" springs to mind :lol:

My car is very beautiful, and very sleek. You've hurt her feelings now.
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No offence intened. IMO, the 406 coupe is a great looking car. I was actually comparing it to my car, not yours.
 
I'd personally love to see that 407 Elixir as a sedan. Don't really dig this hatchback or station wagon look. I think with nicer lines and elegant curves, this car MAY best the lovely 406. This concept alone doesn't prove that, so the final product remains to be seen. Of course, that's why it's called a CONCEPT car. This concept alone would be pretty rounded with the wind tunnel. At speed, the wind will pretty much come and go with that car.

For those rather inexperienced with aerodynamics, I'm no physics or engineering major. So use these websites to get an idea as to what we're all discussing.
-----
FOR MORE INFORMATION: http://education.yahoo.com/reference/encyclopedia/entry?id=50964
http://quest.arc.nasa.gov/aero/background/tools/ (mostly about planes and spacecraft, but still contains useful information.)

And as a "just for fun" comment, earlier in the post, someone said "aerodynamics, well, say hello to the VW 1 Litre Car." Well, when someone else said "reverse aerodynamics," maybe the Toyota Bb/Scion Xb didn't feel like talking to aerodynamics. Still a cool machine, even if others dislike it. I mean hey, it's not THAT un-aerodynamic. Still better looking than the Xa.
 
JohnBM01
I'd personally love to see that 407 Elixir as a sedan. Don't really dig this hatchback or station wagon look. I think with nicer lines and elegant curves, this car MAY best the lovely 406. This concept alone doesn't prove that, so the final product remains to be seen. Of course, that's why it's called a CONCEPT car. This concept alone would be pretty rounded with the wind tunnel. At speed, the wind will pretty much come and go with that car.
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John, the 407 is out for sale now. I've seen twelve of them on the roads, and they all look like they're trying to suck up cat's-eyes.
 
Victor Vance
You mentioned muscle cars weren't aerodynamic (or atleast attempts at aerodynamicy), did you forget the Aero Warriors?

Ford Torino Talladega (1969)
31616.jpg

Ford Torino Cobra (1970)
71ford01.jpg

Mercury Cyclone Spoiler (1969)
BC_FrSMALL.jpg

Mercury Cyclone Spoiler 'II' (1970)
GEORGE-GRIGORIS.jpg

Ford King Cobra (1971 proposed)
ford-kingcobra-1970a.jpg


While FoMoCo's aero attempts were originally mild, Mopar held no bars.

Dodge Charger Daytona
daytona.jpg

Plymouth RoadRunner Superbird
superbird.jpg


FoMoCo's story
These cars were built with one purpose in mind: To win races through aerodynamics. About around time drivers were learning the art of drafting these large bricks and manufacturers, namely Ford Motor Company and Chrysler Corporation, were learning you can't just go fast with horsepower. However there was a catch; In racing, you have to have a near-identical production model on the streets. Ford went pretty minor, giving the Torino and Cyclone a new nose, hoping to help on aerodynamics. It failed. While Ford won the 1969 Daytona races, Chrysler promptly took Ford to school with 5 Wing Cars in the top 5 at the inaugural race at Talladega. Ford could see that Chrysler were on their game and building momentum, so they promptly added new, more aerodynamic nose pieces to the 1970 Torino and dubbed it 'Cobra'. The Cyclone Spoiler also got a new nose. Again, disaster. Although Ford won the Daytona 125 qualifiers, when it was game time for the 500, it was the same song, new year. The Top 6: Dodge, Dodge, Dodge, Dodge, Plymouth, Dodge. Donnie Allison played his cards right and managed to win the July Firecracker 400 at Daytona, but 5 Wing Cars were in his rearview with FoMoCo nowhere in sight. The Talladega had 4 FoMoCo cars in the top 10, but Petty Enterprises driver Pete Hamilton, in a Plymouth, won the race. Ford had enough. A new project was promptly put into action: King Cobra. Ford was looking at the latest sports car designs from Italy and had a plan: Slap it, the nose on the Torino. It sounded perfect: A low-slung nosethat sloped up for high downforce. Early wind tunnel tests revealed it was considerably more aerodynamic than the Daytona. However, at an EPA Board Meeting in 1970, someone pointed out to Ford's head at the time, Henry Ford II (I think), that Ford was pouring millions, not only into their high-bank program, but also into Trans-Am, and Le Mans. In an attempt to get prepared for the new 1974 smog regulations, ford announced in November that they would immideiately pull their entire racing program, including Project King Cobra. Only 10 or so prototypes were built, and they are the only ones left today.

Mopar's Story
Chrysler took a look at the then-aerodynamic C2 Sting Ray nose and decided t improve upon it, extending the Charger and Roadrunner's noses by approximately 22 inches, there were intakes on different spots to provide only the amount of engine cooling that was neccecary. There were curves added for downforce and since headlamps aren't used in racing, gave the cars neat flip-up jobs. Big rear wings were added, not to have the trunk clear the wing, but rather, to eliminate "Aero loose', by using the portion of the car's airstream at the roofline, if a car was drafting you he would be taking air off of your car closer to the bumper you wouldn't get aero loose like you would today. They were wonderful. In late 1970 Chrysler was supposedly developing a wild project car dubbed 'Red Baron', but Bill France saw the cars 'Too Aerodynamic' (ha!) and limited engine displacement to 325 c.i. or less, thus killing the Wing Cars. The Red Baron never made it past the drawing board.
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Indeed, the "Aero Wars" as it became to be known was an interesting event to watch unfold. The Daytona was said to have a C.o.D. of .21. Anyone thinking DeTomaso Pantera right now?
images

Any other ideas?
 
Does anyone know what the current Prius's cd is? I know it's something rediculous like .13, but I don't recall exactly what. I do know that it supposedly has the lowest cd of any production car ever made. However, it's low cd isn't all good, as it lacks quite a bit of downforce, and is a bit shaky in high speed cruising.
 

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