School bus driver gets fired after taking a knife way from a student

[Nicksfix]

Kind of crazy I think.

Article

The students were yelling that this kid had a knife.

According to Kaliszewski, he was driving to his first stop when “it seemed as though the entire bus of students started to yell that a young boy had a knife in his possession.” He said he then pulled over and ordered the boy, estimated to be 8-10-years-old, three times to hand over the knife, indicating the bus wouldn’t move and the police would be called if this didn’t happen. The boy eventually came to the front of the bus and gave a small pocketknife to Kaliszewski, who said he then proceeded on the route.

The bus driver acts accordingly. (to what he thinks is corrective action)

“Being a caring contentious person, I thought I did all the correct things to defuse the situation, keep the students safe as safety is my main objective and doing all the things I was taught,”

He was fired for not following protocol.

A letter sent home to Pleasant Valley parents indicates Kaliszewski was terminated because he failed to follow district protocol in response to the incident.

So what is the school protocol ? Pull over and wait until the police show up ? What if the kid had went nuts and started slashing other students ? What, you just sit there and wait because that's protocol, waiting on the cops to make an appearance ?

Oh, by the way ...

Gadd declined to provide the age or grade of the boy with the knife, and wouldn’t say if he faces any disciplinary action. She did say students aren’t allowed to carry knives at school or on the bus.

So if kids are not allowed to carry knives on the bus, (as per Gadd stated), where did the bus driver go wrong then ?

Does the bus driver have a case ?

Kaliszewski said he has contacted a lawyer in the hopes of getting his job back and clearing his name.

“I would like my name cleared with a good record as I feel I have always been a team player helping others at the garage and doing whatever I could to improve my awareness of the job,” he said in the letter. “I also feel I was unjustly relieved of my position without having proper representation and allow to elaborate on this situation other then to just answer the questions I was asked.”

 

[Sage Ages]

he had been instructed to stop the bus, tell riders there were mechanical problems and contact police in the case of a student with a weapon.

What the hell kind of protocol is that? You don't know what the student would do, so wouldn't it be better to retrieve the weapon as soon as possible before something could happen?

Also, aren't school bus drivers supposed to have an aid to keep students from misbehaving?

 

[Dotini]

I would never make an unarmed attempt to take a knife away from a person. A cut 2" deep in the eye, throat, groin or vital organ and your life is potentially forfeit.

 

[ShobThaBob]

I would never make an unarmed attempt to take a knife away from a person. A cut 2" deep in the eye, throat, groin or vital organ and your life is potentially forfeit.

That's because you're not batman. This driver clearly was. This district is not very smart. Who the hell would fire batman?

 

[Johnnypenso]

What the hell kind of protocol is that? You don't know what the student would do, so wouldn't it be better to retrieve the weapon as soon as possible before something could happen?

Also, aren't school bus drivers supposed to have an aid to keep students from misbehaving?

This is known as the "politically correct, cover your ass, we might get sued, don't be a hero, let the government look after everything" protocol.

 

[BobK]

The approved protocol is stop the bus and lie to everybody. The government "protects" us by lieing to us. Oooo-kay.

 

[Infinital-NG]

If the kid had used his knife on a student, i'd imagine the bus driver would have gotten fired anyway.

If he had heard other students saying "Someone has a knife"

 

[Carbonox]

Protocol is to let a potential stabbing happen, because hurting the kid's feelings by taking the knife away is far worse than a bunch of deaths and injuries.

 

[Rich S]

The way children are expected to be treated has changed drastically in the USA over the last 20 years. I remember when I was a kid (not that long ago, in the 90s) and my bus driver used to give me some real harsh punishment my first ever days on the bus when I was perhaps a 7 yr old.

The same driver used to stop at the local liquor store before picking us up (I'm assuming he must have just been buying stuff for later as the school must for sure have approved it since he just did it in plain sight in front of everyone about a block away or so.)

Anyways, we truly are living in an age of entitlement now post 2008 or so since all the social media began popping up. I think hollywood liberals and the whole myspace/facebook, then twitter have really changed how people present and interact with others. Resume's for jobs now are all about superficial BS, nobody is expected to be sincere, honest people often get punished for telling the truth!

 

[LeadFootLiam]

This world baffles me sometimes.

 

[photonrider]

It's about the Story. And the Law. And the Story. And the Law.

And it's not the whole world we're talking about, are we?

 

[Mini Stiggy]

Whoever came up with that protocol should be fired. Who the hell fires someone for potentially saving lives??
This planet is messed up sometimes!

 

[GTPorsche]

So a guy does the right thing, and loses his job over it? Maybe the ones who set those protocols should be fired as well.

 

[Joel]

I don't really see how this is about PC and coddling kids or whatever. I'm normally right there with you guys about that stuff but it doesn't fit to me here, to me the protocol is because of this:

I would never make an unarmed attempt to take a knife away from a person. A cut 2" deep in the eye, throat, groin or vital organ and your life is potentially forfeit.

Bottom line is that it's safer for the employees and students of the school if you don't try to forcibly take the knife. The problem lies with the different situations that can come up, most adults could safely disarm a kid in grade 1 with a pocket knife, but when you start seeing kids in grade 7 or 8 that are close to 6 feet tall and quite strong with their dad's hunting knives, then it's a different situation. The safest option is to minimize the risk and let the trained police deal with the situation.

I obviously don't agree that this situation called for him to be fired, but I can understand the general principle.

 

[a6m5]

I don't really see how this is about PC and coddling kids or whatever. I'm normally right there with you guys about that stuff but it doesn't fit to me here, to me the protocol is because of this:



Bottom line is that it's safer for the employees and students of the school if you don't try to forcibly take the knife. The problem lies with the different situations that can come up, most adults could safely disarm a kid in grade 1 with a pocket knife, but when you start seeing kids in grade 7 or 8 that are close to 6 feet tall and quite strong with their dad's hunting knives, then it's a different situation. The safest option is to minimize the risk and let the trained police deal with the situation.

I obviously don't agree that this situation called for him to be fired, but I can understand the general principle.

This is different than the impression I got from the article itself. A kid wasn't a threat, and the driver didn't "disarm" the kid. Kid showed off a knife to another kid on the bus, driver found out and told him to hand it over. Don't get me wrong, if the kid was making threats, or swinging the knife, that'd be a different story.

If it indeed go down like it did in the article, I think the driver actually deserve a thank you from all the parents, especially from the parents of the kid with the knife. Driver was there, he assessed the situation & made what seems to have been the right call. Maybe pass around a memo to all the drivers on what the official procedure is, but I'd have left it at that.

 

[Jay.]

I don't really see how this is about PC and coddling kids or whatever.

I believe it IS down to following and acting under 'Politically Correct' procedures. The PC thing has gone mad all over the world. Though I think it is changing the safety of everyone not just mollycoddling the kids.

Here in the UK a police officer cannot grab and hold a criminal suspect by the arm (unless arrested) because it breaches the criminals rights. ???

School teachers cannot even touch aggressive or disruptive students even in an attempt of physical abuse towards the teacher, because it breaches the rights of the student. ???

Many people may also remember UK pensioner Tony Martin, charged and imprisoned with murder & attempted murder for shooting at burglars WITHIN his own home. ???

Basically ALL criminals AND people suspected of possible criminal actions should automatically forfeit any safety and protection rights. Especially if they are eventually found guilty.

Bottom line is that it's safer for the employees and students of the school if you don't try to forcibly take the knife. The problem lies with the different situations that can come up, most adults could safely disarm a kid in grade 1 with a pocket knife, but when you start seeing kids in grade 7 or 8 that are close to 6 feet tall and quite strong with their dad's hunting knives, then it's a different situation. The safest option is to minimize the risk and let the trained police deal with the situation.

This kid WAS only grade 1 or 2, and not a 6ft monster and Kaliszewski drives a big bus that many unfit adults could not do, so IMO this guy was clearly ABLE to disarm the kid.

 

[Joel]

This is different than the impression I got from the article itself. A kid wasn't a threat, and the driver didn't "disarm" the kid. Kid showed off a knife to another kid on the bus, driver found out and told him to hand it over. Don't get me wrong, if the kid was making threats, or swinging the knife, that'd be a different story.

Exactly, but when you're making protocol for thousands of people in hundreds of situations, it's not so clear cut. The idea behind the protocol is not to escalate the situation, and that's why the protocol is not to try to take a knife from a kid that could potentially be dangerous. It sounds silly when you're talking about a 6 year old with a pocket knife, but a 14 year old with a hunting knife would be a different situation and it's hard to just leave that up to the interpretation of hundreds of drivers.

Who knows what goes on at home for these kids. Maybe this kid is on pills for some disorder, maybe he didn't take his pills today, maybe he's got another knife in his back pocket, the point is that you just don't know and it's not something that really can be left up to individual interpretation. I agree that on the face of it it all looks ridiculous, but it's tough to draw a line.

Here in the UK a police officer cannot grab and hold a criminal suspect by the arm (unless arrested) because it breaches the criminals rights. ???

Seems reasonable, why should a police officer be allowed to detain people if they aren't being arrested? If I haven't broken any laws or don't have a warrant for my arrest, what right does a guy with a shiny badge have to twist my arm behind my back and detain me?

School teachers cannot even touch aggressive or disruptive students even in an attempt of physical abuse towards the teacher, because it breaches the rights of the student. ???

I don't know what the rules are here but it seems like a very uncommon situation, and I'm doubting that a teacher defending themselves from an assault would be an issue.

Many people may also remember UK pensioner Tony Martin, charged and imprisoned with murder & attempted murder for shooting at burglars WITHIN his own home. ???

For another thread perhaps but I agree with the sentiment here. Granted this happened in Cleveland, not the UK.

Basically ALL criminals AND people suspected of possible criminal actions should automatically forfeit any safety and protection rights. Especially if they are eventually found guilty.

Surely you'd like to rephrase this, you mean to say that a suspected criminal should forfeit their rights? We put convicted criminals away under the principle that they've forfeited their rights, but there's a reason you're innocent until proven guilty. Without a warrant or reasonable cause for an arrest there's no reason you should be detained or treated any differently than an innocent person.

This kid WAS only grade 1 or 2, and not a 6ft monster and Kaliszewski drives a big bus that many unfit adults could not do, so IMO this guy was clearly ABLE to disarm the kid.

Well yes, but then how do you write the protocol? Bus drivers can only take banned items from kids in grade 1? 2? 4?

 

[Jay.]

Seems reasonable, why should a police officer be allowed to detain people if they aren't being arrested? If I haven't broken any laws or don't have a warrant for my arrest, what right does a guy with a shiny badge have to twist my arm behind my back and detain me?

Ok, so the officer has a choice. He could hold the suspects arm to stop a possible pursuit and THEN determine whether he may have broken a law, or he could let the suspect go and the suspect runs and breaks another two or three laws and possibly causing danger to others during the pursuit that folows.
Or if in the US the officer could just yell 'Stop' and then start shooting.
Many people here are laughing at UK police forces. We have teenagers everywhere committing small and often stupid crimes yet our officers are unable to do anything in most cases.

Surely you'd like to rephrase this, you mean to say that a suspected criminal should forfeit their rights? We put convicted criminals away under the principle that they've forfeited their rights, but there's a reason you're innocent until proven guilty. Without a warrant or reasonable cause for an arrest there's no reason you should be detained or treated any differently than an innocent person.

Maybe,
though the 'victims' in the Tony Martin case stood by, and swore by their rights, claiming they were within their rights to enter the property because they thought it was empty. Cases like this, rights are irrelevant as their intentions were clear. They deliberately broke into a property that they did not own, for the sole purpose of robbing the contents.
...but like you said above this is probably a discussion for another thread.

 

[a6m5]

Exactly, but when you're making protocol for thousands of people in hundreds of situations, it's not so clear cut. The idea behind the protocol is not to escalate the situation, and that's why the protocol is not to try to take a knife from a kid that could potentially be dangerous. It sounds silly when you're talking about a 6 year old with a pocket knife, but a 14 year old with a hunting knife would be a different situation and it's hard to just leave that up to the interpretation of hundreds of drivers.

Who knows what goes on at home for these kids. Maybe this kid is on pills for some disorder, maybe he didn't take his pills today, maybe he's got another knife in his back pocket, the point is that you just don't know and it's not something that really can be left up to individual interpretation. I agree that on the face of it it all looks ridiculous, but it's tough to draw a line.?

I do hear where you are coming from. It's just that to me, this seems to be a case where common sense won over bureaucratic procedure that wouldn't apply to every single scenario these drivers may encounter.

 

[Jay.]

I do hear where you are coming from. It's just that to me, this seems to be a case where common sense won over bureaucratic procedure that wouldn't apply to every single scenario these drivers may encounter.

We should make allowances for evaluations and common sense when taking action, regardless of protocols.

As Nicksfix said below...

So what is the school protocol ? Pull over and wait until the police show up ? What if the kid had went nuts and started slashing other students ? What, you just sit there and wait because that's protocol, waiting on the cops to make an appearance ?

The outcome of following 'protocol' could have been a LOT worse, resulting in unnecessary injuries.

 

[Joel]

I do hear where you are coming from. It's just that to me, this seems to be a case where common sense won over bureaucratic procedure that wouldn't apply to every single scenario these drivers may encounter.

I certainly agree, and I'm not a fan of overbearing bureaucracy in most cases, and I certainly don't think he should have been fired.

We should make allowances for evaluations and common sense when taking action, regardless of protocols.

Again though, where do you draw the line? Is it acceptable to take a knife from a 6 year old? What about an 8 year old? A 12 year old?

The outcome of following 'protocol' could have been a LOT worse, resulting in unnecessary injuries.

And the outcome of trying to be a security guard while driving a bus could be much worse too, the hypotheticals go both ways.

 

[Jay.]

@Noob616

This is where the people/bus driver/police officer involved at the time need to assess and evaluate the situation, and use their common sense.
'Do I follow protocol or not?'
'How high can I jump? and can I do it without hitting my head or breaking my legs?'

Both protocol and common sense will often have different outcomes but the situations and circumstances will always vary. I'm sure that if the bus was full of grade 6/7 students the driver would have acted differently.

 

[Imari]

@Noob616

There's such a thing as trusting people on the ground to use their judgement. Not everything has to be in a rulebook beforehand. You can't make any blanket calls about when it's acceptable to just stop and take a weapon from someone, the variables are too large.

So do you treat every child as an potential mass murderer? Or do you give the adult on the scene some power of discrimination, being that they have eyes and a brain and stuff?

If someone in that position makes a bad call, they should be punished for that. Likewise, when someone makes a good call like this they should be rewarded, or at least not punished.

Turning people into robots who follow the three ring binder of bus driving is not a real good idea. Train people to evaluate and deal with the situations they're likely to encounter. Sure, there's situations where stopping the bus and calling the cops would be a good idea, but having that as the only solution to any "weapons" encounter is daft.

A five year old showing off his birthday swiss army knife to his friends is not a threat, just as a 6 foot 12 year old with a hunting knife very much is. These situations don't require the same response, and the breadth of possible situations makes trying to regulate them all impossible.

 

[Mikeybc]

Hopefully this incident won't deter others from exercising common sense. Bus driver only asked the child to bring the knife to the front of the bus, student complied with his request which in no way was unreasonable.

 

[Keef]

Incidents like this make me smile when I think about my career choice and who I have to answer to when making tough decisions.

Me. I can ask for help but I have the final say in almost all decisions made.

 

[Grayfox]

In the end the bus driver was going to get fired and in trouble.

If he got the knife off the kid before the kid hurt someone, he gets fired.
If he followed the rules and the kid started to slash others, he gets fired for not stopping it.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I guess these teachers were following the same type of "the rules say I don't have to do anything so I won't" protocol and waiting for the police to show up:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/11/1...ged-bullying-lawsuit-alleges/?intcmp=obinsite

The reputed bully then allegedly got up and punched the victim in the head roughly seven times after becoming “visibly agitated,” according to the lawsuit, which also alleges that school staffers failed to intervene once the attack began.

 

[Nicksfix]

In the end the bus driver was going to get fired and in trouble.

If he got the knife off the kid before the kid hurt someone, he gets fired.
If he followed the rules and the kid started to slash others, he gets fired for not stopping it.

Pretty much a no win situation for the bus driver. Damned if 'ya do ... damned if 'ya don't.

 

[BobK]

Is nobody else troubled by the fact that the protocol also requires the driver to lie about what's going on?

 

[Grayfox]

No.

He has to lie to "protect" the schools image.

You see it everyday now.

Cops lie on their statements, then retract it and they never get in trouble, yet if you were to lie to a cop that is another story.