See through cars and overtaking...

[gillrichard]

I have just been overtaken several times in a row by cars that are temporarily see through...they have collision turned off (because of erratic driving) and they sail straight through me, appearing like ghosts in front of me, happily braking late into corners.

Now don't get me wrong, I can understand the collision avoidance system, but you should not be able to gain places in this way and if your position goes up during collision avoidance mode you should have a penalty! Meh! Unless of course you are in that mode because someone else shunted you, but you are unlikely to be overtaking then anyway.

thoughts appreciated!

 

[Sturdy]

The Beginner races on Daytona online are absolutely swamped with this. Everyone just gets in their GT40 / tuned Z06 and rides around the walls together, half of them invisible.

I think we'll just have to join the list of people waiting for Private Lobbies with lots and lots of options for the Host

 

[gillrichard]

I think we'll just have to join the list of people waiting for Private Lobbies with lots and lots of options for the Host

What you said!

 

[Loon]

Sounds pretty ignorant to me. Is there a way for the host of the race to turn off that option?

 

[j8mie]

I know over the last few weeks/days there has been more and more people complaining about online racing which is being plagued by poor drivers who would rather cheat than have a enjoyable race.

Until private races are available to us, don't be surprised what you see online.

 

[gillrichard]

I know over the last few weeks/days there has been more and more people complaining about online racing which is being plagued by poor drivers who would rather cheat than have a enjoyable race.

Until private races are available to us, don't be surprised what you see online.

I don't think I am complaining that much about the other drivers, it is the mechanics of the programming which are at fault...if you brake late, get a tap or lose control slightly, you should not suddenly be able to dance through cars like your were the bloody baron or whatever!

 

[jweaver]

Personally, until the on-line mode is improved, I would like to see EVERYONE as a 'ghost'

Instead of racing against each other directly, I would prefer that you could just turn collision off and have everyone racing their own race where the result is based on their individual performance..

Of course, you won't get drafting and nudging, but you will still be racing against each other on the same track.... Right now, I am finding the on-line mode almost unplayable and I think I would prefer to race against 'ghosts' instead who couldn't influence my performance..!

Jon

 

[Denur]

I don't think I am complaining that much about the other drivers, it is the mechanics of the programming which are at fault...if you brake late, get a tap or lose control slightly, you should not suddenly be able to dance through cars like your were the bloody baron or whatever!

Designing a fair penalty system is not easy, but PD have made progress. When someone tries to ram you off at a corner coming in at high speed, he gets ghosted. This is quite simple to implement: if
speed @ trackposition(x) > s km/h then set_to_ghost.

Something similar could be done for the brake test (someone hits the brake hard while you're in his slipstream), but there are already more variables to take into consideration then with the previous example: is he aproaching a corner (so braking is to be expected)? How hard is the brake applied (and what is hard enough to recognize it as a brake test)? Is he trying to avoid someone if front of him etc. This requires that the penalty system needs to keep track of a lot of variables per car.
Same for sideways ramming when you're overtaking someone. Again, is the culprit at a track position where it is reasonable to asume that he needs to change direction (corner, other car avoiding)? Is he following a normal race line (including some oversteer or understeer in corners, and define what is "some")? So many variables and so little calculation power to keep up the 30fps.
I'd rather see that PD removes penalty types that can result in arbitrary results, including the one for ramming barriers (for when someone knocks you of the track).

 

[nasanu]

People actually bother with the races that aren't pro? Strange.

 

[H3rmaN]

So many variables and so little calculation power to keep up the 30fps.

I agreed with everything you have said, except this...

Firstly in game is 60fps, and replays are 30fps, and secondly the PS3 has ENOURMOUS computing power with the CELL.

To put it into context it takes a 2.66GHz Core2Quad processor (one of the best you can buy today) about 2 days to do a single work unit for Folding@Home

In comparison the PS3 can do it in 7/8 hours! And the Folding@Home GUI on the PS3 is also FAR more demanding and shows where its day and night around the world, and how many PS3's are running Folding@Home!

I also read a report somewhere that a lab in Austrailia did some tests on the PS3. The tests were to see how long it took a PS3 to crack a "secure" 8 character password.

Previous tests had shown that the best Core2Quads on the market took over 2 days! The PS3 did it in 8 hours! The CELL is so powerful that IBM (one of the companies that helped develope it) put them into its new supercomputer, roadrunner!

Road runner is as powerful as 5,000 (or it might be 50,000) PS3's!

The PS3 is in no way, shape or form short of processing power. What it is short of is devs that know how to make full use of it. For example, the first gen of games (such as MotorStorm, Resistance, etc) never got the SPU's to do all the hard work (which is what they should do). Instead it was the PPU which was doing all the hard work! The PPU is only there to "overlook" the SPU's and tell them what to do.

Once devs can make 100% full use of the CELL and its SPU's the PS3 will really start to show what it can do! But dont expect that to happen till late 2008/mid 2009 at the earliest!

 

[SjefGielen]

Excuse me, but the PS3 cell power is not the issue, it's the waiting for all data from each client to the host that slows things down. My guess is that the power used for determining what goes on online is about 1%, the other 99% used for the local eyecandy.

 

[Denur]

I agreed with everything you have said, except this...

Firstly in game is 60fps, and replays are 30fps, and secondly the PS3 has ENOURMOUS computing power with the CELL.

True (twice), it will take quite some more developing time to get it right though. Hopefully we'll see some results the next months.

 

[gillrichard]

So what are we saying here then?

1. Processor is quick enough
2. Programming is in Dev
3. We just have to wait...
?

 

[Denur]

it's the waiting for all data from each client to the host that slows things down.

Yes indeed, that is an important issue. I wonder how often (on average) players send updates, whether there are some pre-calculations done at each player's side or whether the host has to do all the calculating and distributing the results to the rest. In offline mode (e.g. arcade vs AI) this doesn't play a role of course.

 

[H3rmaN]

So what are we saying here then?

1. Processor is quick enough
2. Programming is in Dev
3. We just have to wait...
?

1. Yes

2. Yes, if what you mean is that its up to the Dev to get their code to make full use of the CELL

3. Yes

 

[magburner]

I have to agree about the online mode, it needs a serious rework. I'm a fair and competent driver who is constantly hounded because of that. It is only because I am getting better at avoiding the talentless nooblets who race GT5 that I am not getting shepherded into the arnco's every five seconds!

There are also (obviously) flaws in the collision avoidance system in place. From my experiences it works on the relative speed between you and the other guy. That's great for non-braking maniacs, but if for instance a car spins by the side of you, and is travelling roughly the same pace, then you get smashed off the track.

If your also unfortunate enough to rub the walls at the same time, you get penalised with not only the maniac pushing you off the track, but also a 5 second collision penalty! The same applies if a nutter pushes you over a corner, causing you to pick up a track cutting penalty!

Another one of my bug bears is the ghost car suddenly re-appearing right in front of you, and your travelling at a much greater speed. I haven't seen it happen too much on other tracks, but on Daytona, it is bloody lethal!

You can guarantee that if you are trailing a pack of cars coming off one of the banked curves, there will be massive smoke clouds and cars all over the shop infront of you. Its tough to pick ANY line when your travelling at speeds in excess of 180mph, so you can imagine how it feels to smash into a car that you could not see (because of the smoke), and could not avoid because of the speed you were carrying out of the corner. It has happened to me too many times, and I'm the guy that gets the collision penalty, the probable uncontrollable spin into the infield, and if I'm too far infield, another short cut penalty for good measure!

Lastly, the collision detection system cannot discern the subtle taps and nudges that can ruin a race as equally as some loon hair-arsing into the back of you. As jweaver said, everyone should be a ghost!

 

[jweaver]

Lastly, the collision detection system cannot discern the subtle taps and nudges that can ruin a race as equally as some loon hair-arsing into the back of you. As jweaver said, everyone should be a ghost!

And don't get me wrong.. I don't want it to be like this.. But I feel that based on the current model, there is no choice...

I think I would enjoy playing much more if there were other cars on the track (so that I could pace myself) who were driven by 'human' players.. But they could not interact with you.

Perhaps there should be online 'events' which were either 'ghost' or 'collision' modes?

I know that not being able to interact with other player would be a very bad things.. But worse would be people stopping playing online at together (Which I am seriously thinking of doing).. There just doesn't seem to be a point.. For me, its a simulation and all about skill and accuracy.. If someone comes along too fast on the inside, then you just let them, as they will hopefully overshoot the corner and you will be able to take your place back. If they overtake you in an impressive way, you just look at what they did, admire the move and learn from it. Thats what racing is all about. But to be along side someone on the straight, and have them simply ram you, is pointless.......

I hope PD can do something about this, and quickly too, or the game may be over before its even started for some!

jon

 

[Scratch]

I don't think "ghost" mode would work all the time. If ghost mode is used, you cannot draft from other cars, since they are "ghosts"?

Personally i hate it on single player, especially when cars go through you instead of bumping into you (like when you try to block them).

As people have said above, private rooms would fix this, not ghost mode.

 

[jweaver]

I don't think "ghost" mode would work all the time. If ghost mode is used, you cannot draft from other cars, since they are "ghosts"?

Personally i hate it on single player, especially when cars go through you instead of bumping into you (like when you try to block them).

As people have said above, private rooms would fix this, not ghost mode.

Sure, you would be able to draft.. But its not like it does you any good now.. If you get behind someone, draft and pull out to overtake.. More often than not, they just slam into you...

I don't see how Private rooms will 'fix' this.. It would be OK for people who have groups of like minded friends.. But for the majority of people, they will still be forced to race against strangers...

Private rooms is urgently needed, thats for sure... But I didn't see it as the saviour of online play!

Jon

 

[magburner]

Or how about an opt-in system. You place a deposit (suitable large) to race the race. You drive fairly, without crashing, and you get it back once all other racers have voted whether you were or not. If you can't enforce through regulation, hit 'em where it hurts - in the wallet!

This I think would be he best way to regulate races. Include options to win nothing (even for first place), or to lose the car you are driving, and you will soon see how quickly things fall into shape!

Edit@ jweaver:

Daytona Super Speedway is a fine example of the 'me first' attitude that plagues the online mode. If the drivers could co-operate, the races would be a lot closer than what they are. I knew nothing about racing ovals before I played GT5, now I think I have figured it out. To win the race, requires everyone draft and be drafted in a kind of leap-frog fashion.

On one occasion (and only one), myself and another driver managed to catch a guy who was almost half a track ahead through this leap-frog drafting, it was an impressive feat, because once it got going, there was no stopping it. The other guy was a good clean racer, and he, like me saw the benefit. I didn't win the race (he did), but I came second, and I left with a good feeling of teamwork. IMO that's how Daytona should be raced, but getting the nooblets to understand that you have to lose a place or two to gain them again is nigh on impossible.

 

[Scratch]

Sure, you would be able to draft.. But its not like it does you any good now.. If you get behind someone, draft and pull out to overtake.. More often than not, they just slam into you...

I don't see how Private rooms will 'fix' this.. It would be OK for people who have groups of like minded friends.. But for the majority of people, they will still be forced to race against strangers...

Private rooms is urgently needed, thats for sure... But I didn't see it as the saviour of online play!

Jon

Sorry, this is what i meant - racing with friends!

@ magburner - I don't think this would work, because the same way as people cheat at races, people could mark down who got 1st place or raced very well to get less competition or such.

The problem is in the people who play the game, not necessarily the game itself (though it does need improving).

Private groups/playing with friends would improve it.

E.g GTAplanet club. Only those who have applied/been accepted can race, and those who misbehave get kicked, therefore not allowed to participate within the group. Though that would mean somebody would have to be responsible for groups, and im not sure how this would work...

 

[jweaver]

E.g GTAplanet club. Only those who have applied/been accepted can race, and those who misbehave get kicked, therefore not allowed to participate within the group. Though that would mean somebody would have to be responsible for groups, and im not sure how this would work...

The problem with Private races is that all of the competators would need to be in your friends list... And all of those people will have to be online at the same time.. Since there is a limitation of the number of friends you can have in the XMB, this is always going to case a problem.

The chances of being able to get a 16 player PRIVATE on-line game is going to be difficult, unless you are part of a group who all play at the same time.

But I do agree.. Other than a photo mode, the 'private room' feature is what I am most disappointed about, because there are 4 of 5 people in work who are all buying GT5P and we were planning some kind of 'league' and this isn't going to work in its current form.

Private rooms can't come soon enough.. But equally, any changes to the current online mode would be most welcome!

Jon

 

[Famine]

I'd quite like to see a number above a ghosted car to count down and tell me when it's going to stop being ghosted.

'Cos I was involuntarily half-way through one of these cars (having been pushed out into him) when he suddenly solidified and sent me pinging at a billion miles an hour sideways.

 

[DrTrouserPlank]

With the current system of relying on a player to be the host for a race, implementing private rooms would be extremely easy and place no extra strain on resources, or require any additional infrastructure from PD or Sony.

With traditional dedicated servers this wouldn't be possible without plowing more money into the available online resources, but with the hosted servers it's easy, so there's no excuse not to see it in the finished article. The question is, will there actually be enough demand for it from the community on a large scale, rather than the minority of people who actually want to race super clean with their friends or in leagues. My feeling is that demand may not be sufficient.

 

[Mad Matt]

Just had my first online play and can see the problems immediately. I was lucky in that most of the players were clean, but one guy (Mario1993) just drove into me when I tried to pass him on the straight.

I think it's actually quite complex to get a computer to judge the difference between a sporting tap (Jason Plato in the BTCC this weekend gone) and a foul.

As it stands I can't see me racing online much as it's just not fun.

Let's hope they can get something sorted fairly quickly.

 

[Eggy]

I agree that online play is pretty pants at the moment but I am really looking forward to private races for a number of reasons.

*We could set up 4 man racing teams and four teams compete in each race.
*16 points for winner, 15 for 2nd etc and the team with the most points wins.
*This community could easily organise something like this amongst themselves (I guess?)
*Private races could require a password to gain entry. GTP as a forum could be issued a password that they could change every week and send it out via PM. If the community as a whole felt you weren't racing fair then you would simply be excluded from the password list.

*shrugs* I dunno. I hope something gets sorted though.

 

[Speedster502]

Daytona Super Speedway is a fine example of the 'me first' attitude that plagues the online mode. If the drivers could co-operate, the races would be a lot closer than what they are. I knew nothing about racing ovals before I played GT5, now I think I have figured it out. To win the race, requires everyone draft and be drafted in a kind of leap-frog fashion.

On one occasion (and only one), myself and another driver managed to catch a guy who was almost half a track ahead through this leap-frog drafting, it was an impressive feat, because once it got going, there was no stopping it. The other guy was a good clean racer, and he, like me saw the benefit. I didn't win the race (he did), but I came second, and I left with a good feeling of teamwork. IMO that's how Daytona should be raced, but getting the nooblets to understand that you have to lose a place or two to gain them again is nigh on impossible.

I agree, I was doing this earlier with another driver. Sorry can't remember your name, although I wish I could! He was a excellent driver, I think he was Rammestein something or other. Anyway, he was in his F430 and I was in the my Tuned Corvette..well detuned. For 3 laps all me and him were doing was "leap frogging" to gain speed and positions. Then some idiot rammed him, I lost my "leap frogger", I lost my speed, and eventually lost my position and him...well he ended up coming last.

I feel sorry for him especially when the rammer went on to win the race. Makes me hate racing online. 👎

 

[gillrichard]

I'd quite like to see a number above a ghosted car to count down and tell me when it's going to stop being ghosted.

I think that is the best idea I have read so far! You could at least prepare for the moment they will appear again!

 

[an1mal_69]

damage will play a big part in in leveling the playing field..riding the barriers round corners and ramming is going to ruin anychance of being competitive, so 'most' will pack it in an play by the rules.

 

[FoolKiller]

The problem with Private races is that all of the competators would need to be in your friends list... And all of those people will have to be online at the same time.. Since there is a limitation of the number of friends you can have in the XMB, this is always going to case a problem.

You act as if a private race has to be invitation only.

Go play Warhawk. Private servers and dedicated servers run at once. You can host your own game and have it be open or passworded. Some of us here at GTP have done this. We even had a couple open where we could play against others.

The thing is the guy hosting can kick other players. This leaves the only issue being if the host is an unsporting sort who exits out of a game or kicks players that have killed him one too many times. I have personally had both happen to me. But never once was I so upset at the situation that I was angry. I just move on to a dedicated server or find another private server with more sporting individuals. It does not have to be invitation only.


And based on the news that I have heard about Home there will be sections for specific games that you can meet others who want to play and then go play with them. While a guy may feel he can get away with doing cheap stuff to random unknowns I think this would be considerably cut down when he meets them with a visually identified avatar and chats ahead of time and people lay out rules for bumping.

I think private races will do a lot to stop this sort of thing, especially if the host has the ability to kick individuals.