Seeking advice about a Buttkicker alternative on consoles

WarriusZero

WarriusZero

1,833
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
WarriusZero
Hi guys,

I was wondering if I should go the "Buttkicker" way with my setup: PS4/T300/Project CARS(soon)/homemade rig using a real car seat

How beneficial is it? Do I need extra equipment? (My DVD player is my home cinema amplifier, accompanied with 5 speakers and a subwoofer)

Additionally, and that's why I put quotes around the word Buttkicker, what about alternative tactile transducers, as the Buttkicker is too expensive for me?
I'm looking, for example at this rather cheap option:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0045W10VW/?tag=gtplanetuk-20


My new search for realism is partly fueled by you, @LogiForce , with your various descriptions of how the FFB should feel like, including a comment you posted this morning... :)

Thanks for all the help I can get, hoping this also helps others.
 
I too have been looking for months now for such setup. I'd never had experience with bass tactile transducers before so I guess anything should impress to a certain extent. It will become such a necessity when in use with VR when it eventually comes to market.

Buttkicker products here in Australia are way overpriced as the there's only one reseller call Pagnian Imports and to make matters worst, cannot buy it from US retailers as Buttkicker amplifiers in the US are 110v whereas the Australia version is 220v.

As a result, I'd been researching a different setup pretty much around the same price range as Buttkickers but more options for mounting. Still haven't make the purchase yet as I still trying to find more reviews on Reckhorn BS-200. The amplifier is a gem being a normal amplifier it also have low-pass cross-over allowing it to use as a subwoofer amplifier. Only downside is, it is only powerful enough to drive two transducers.

Basic setup (2 transducers+ 1 amplifier) total cost around USD@$230


Alternatively, you can get a proper Dayton Audio SA230 230W Subwoofer Amplifier for an extra USD$100 which allow you to drive up to 4 transducers. There are threads on transducers on GTP forum and quite insightful. I would also love to see other people's alternative setup to Buttkicker as well. I suggest change the thread title to only "Buttkicker Alternative" so that this tread gets a bit more attention IMHO. :)

P.S. I think that Dayton tactile transducer you have in mind isn't powerful enough. I might be wrong depending on how you attach them to your rig.
 
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I didn't know that transducers could be had for such a low price. My TV has a subwoofer output, maybe this is something I can look into doing as it's so cheap.


:)
 
I'd definitely recommend tactile. I just have one Clark Synthesis TST209 under my rig and it is amazing how much more immersive it is. I can only imagine what those guys with four transducers and simvibe are getting...👍
 
Once you go Tactile, Your NEVER going to be able to go without it. FYI the Dayton Apa150 is a ROCK solid Amp, been rocking mine for a while no with ZERO issues on a pair of Mod miniLFE/Gamer2's
 
WarriusZero
Hi guys,

I was wondering if I should go the "Buttkicker" way with my setup: PS4/T300/Project CARS(soon)/homemade rig using a real car seat

How beneficial is it? Do I need extra equipment? (My DVD player is my home cinema amplifier, accompanied with 5 speakers and a subwoofer)

Additionally, and that's why I put quotes around the word Buttkicker, what about alternative tactile transducers, as the Buttkicker is too expensive for me?
I'm looking, for example at this rather cheap option:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0045W10VW/?tag=gtplanetuk-20


My new search for realism is partly fueled by you, @LogiForce , with your various descriptions of how the FFB should feel like, including a comment you posted this morning... :)

Thanks for all the help I can get, hoping this also helps others.
Click to expand...


I don't have any experience with those speakers or other non-Buttkicker brands. What I can tell you is that for driving these speakers, as with normal speakers, you need an amplifier that is capable of delivering at least more than 10% in wattage than the speaker's maximum wattage in RMS.
Also you need to buy an amp that is capable of driving speakers of a certain Ohm resistance level. So if the amp says its good for 16 Ohm speakers, do not hook up 8 Ohm speakers or worse 4 Ohm. If you do than the amplifier wil overheat or worse... 'blow up'.

So this means that you need a 40 watt RMS or stronger amp that is capable of driving 16 Ohm speakers (most amps), at least for those Daytons.
Do realize that those Dayton pucks are made for high frequencies and not so much low frequencies. This due to the low height and thus a small amount of travel for the tactile 'cone' inside. The bigger/taller the tactile speaker the better it will produce low-end vibrations.
Which is the same as with a normal speakers... the tweeter is small, the mid-range a bit bigger and the bass speaker is always the biggest with the most amount of travel.
Heck, even guitarists know that an 8" speaker doesn't have enough low-end for a nice sound. So they tend to prefer a 12" inch speaker.


So yeah, you can pick the Dayton puck but realize that it's basically a 'tweeter' among the tactile speakers. ;)
 
WarriusZero
How beneficial is it? Do I need extra equipment? (My DVD player is my home cinema amplifier, accompanied with 5 speakers and a subwoofer
Click to expand...

I've never trier a buttkicker hooked up using just the sound output of the game, I went straight to the Simvibe software, which is necessary if you want real, physics based feedback rather than just bass-driven feedback.

I only have a single buttkicker mini-LFE that I bolted to the bottom of my seat, and the seat is then attached to the frame using rubber mounts - this enables the seat to shake without as much energy being absorbed or distributed through the frame. I mounted the rack mount amp beneath it.
4E180E13-EC3C-4415-B752-719B2F0A2590_zpstwft6fwi.jpg

02358B8B-FD4E-4BDD-89BA-97CBD3704DDB_zpsqzaq9luq.jpg

In my opinion if you want good feedback you really need a decent shaker, one with some weight behind it or else it won't really move the seat, just sit there vibrating. And you need a powerful amp to drive it. A home theatre amp isn't powerful enough.

The benefit of doing it properly though? Well even though I only have a single shaker with simvibe, the immersion I get from it is incredible, the feeling of the curbs really makes it feel like you are driving over them in real life, the kick through the seat as you bang through the gears. It still puts a smile on my face.

I was worried when spending the money that I wouldn't like it enough to warrant the cost. Needless worrying. Love it. Would love to experience 4 corners based feedback but I'm not ready to redesign my rig just yet and as it is I'm very happy with the setup.

In summary - it is more expensive using good gear but it's also worth it.
 
Soulfresh_ACV
Buttkicker products here in Australia are way overpriced as the there's only one reseller call Pagnian Imports and to make matters worst, cannot buy it from US retailers as Buttkicker amplifiers in the US are 110v whereas the Australia version is 220v.

As a result, I'd been researching a different setup pretty much around the same price range as Buttkickers but more options for mounting.
Click to expand...

I live in Australia too - check out this supplier. I got the SPL 500 amp (2x250W RMS) for like $80 and it's great, I don't even have it turned up to quarter and it makes it crank - although for a bit more I wish I got the SPL 1000 (2x500W RMS) for plenty of headroom to ensure zero clipping. Didn't scroll down enough when I chose the SPL 500. Still, 250W RMS is overrated for the mini-LFE.

Just thought I'd share some options man.
 
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In addition to @Punknoodle... Simvibe doesn't work with console of course.

Regarding isolators (i.e. rubber mounts). This is not only neccessary to isolate vibrations, but also to 'hang your rig up' in the mounts, because without the mounts the rig is too stiff/sturdy and thus the rig... chair... other gear does not vibrate. So you need rubber mounts to give the rig a bit of flex to be able to vibrate well, and to let the vibrations travel to where they are needed.
 
Punknoodle
I live in Australia too - check out this supplier. I got the SPL 500 amp (2x250W RMS) for like $80 and it's great, I don't even have it turned up to quarter and it makes it crank - although for a bit more I wish I got the SPL 1000 (2x500W RMS) for plenty of headroom to ensure zero clipping. Didn't scroll down enough when I chose the SPL 500. Still, 250W RMS is overrated for the mini-LFE.

Just thought I'd share some options man.
Click to expand...

Sorry which supplier for the SPL AMP?
 
VBR
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand it all gets really complicated again!


:boggled:
Click to expand...


Yep, that's pretty much what I was thinking.
From what I've gathered, I can't do without an amp and the cheap transducers are not good enough. It looks like there's no cheap alternative and I'd need to be careful with the outputs.
Back to the drawing board...


Lets say I'd go for a Reckhorn BS-200, would a SPL-300 be enough?
Am I right to believe I could plug in my audio output from my DVD/Home Cinema into it?
It wouldn't be as good as a Simvibe, as I understand, but could it be an acceptable option with a PS4?
 
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WarriusZero
Yep, that's pretty much what I was thinking.
From what I've gathered, I can't do without an amp and the cheap transducers are not good enough. It looks like there's no cheap alternative and I'd need to be careful with the outputs.
Back to the drawing board...


Lets say I'd go for a Reckhorn BS-200, would a SPL-300 be enough?
Am I right to believe I could plug in my audio output from my DVD/Home Cinema into it?
It wouldn't be as good as a Simvibe, as I understand, but could it be an acceptable option with a PS4?
Click to expand...
If you aren't going to use SimVibe, you need to ensure your amp has a low pass feature or is only receiving a low pass signal meaning it's only going to try and send low frequencies to the shaker. They don't like getting full range audio and it would defeat the point and sound horrible.

It's only a little shaker and so 150W RMS would probably get it moving ok, but I think you are better off with at least something like a SPL 500 in case you want to upgrade it later on.

Edit: By moving OK I mean moving OK based on its actual capabilities which may not be that much because it's faily small. Just thought I'd better clarify.
 
@Punknoodle thanks for the explanations. I'm pretty sure it would send the whole signal so I'll have to think about how to do that.

Thanks everyone by the way, I really appreciate all your input and I now know a lot more.

Thinking about it, would a 5.1 amp instead do the job, even replacing completely my current amp?
 
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WarriusZero
@Punknoodle thanks for the explanations. I'm pretty sure it would send the whole signal so I'll have to think about how to do that.

Thanks everyone by the way, I really appreciate all your input and I now know a lot more.

Thinking about it, would a 5.1 amp instead do the job, even replacing completely my current amp?
Click to expand...
The 5.1 amp would do a good job of powering your speakers and would do a good job of creating a low pass signal (thats the .1 part) but it won't power the shaker directly. Most 5.1 amps only put out a signal for the sub as home theatre subs are usually self powered. You would still need a power amplifier to take that low pass signal and power your shaker independently.
 
Yes of course not but that is why even my own build accommodates such hardware for both Simvibe & Game Audio immersion. Both have their benefits and downsides and my journey has always been to get the best configuration for both.
 
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OK, sorry but whatever.
This thread was about a cheap alternative. Yours doesn't look to be anywhere near cheap.
But thanks for passing by...
 
Keep an eye on ebay. I picked up 2 x Aura Bass Shakers, and 2 x Earthquake Miniquakes for very cheap.

Also, found an old school hi-fi 3-way fully adjustable crossover (ElectroVoice XEQ3) $10 at a garage sale. Gives you a lot of control over which frequencies you send to each amp/channel. Kind of like a poor mans simvibe.
 
WarriusZero
OK, sorry but whatever.
This thread was about a cheap alternative. Yours doesn't look to be anywhere near cheap.
But thanks for passing by...
Click to expand...

Fair enough edited the post as the information was beyond what you want.
The Dayton Pucks are cheap indeed but I never found them that convincing, they can add tactile detail but lack any real depth of immersion.

Aura Pro or Reckhorn would be next devices but I've seen smaller Buttkicker shakers go for as little as £50 on ebay.

Consider a cheap 2nd hand AV amplifer that supports 4ohm speaker rating. Sony 1200ES are good solid units going for around £70 up these days.
 
Sinuslive BassPump on ebay for under £30.
Not sure how good they are or if a Aura pro clone, maybe somebody knows.
 
Mr Latte
Sinuslive BassPump on ebay for under £30.
Not sure how good they are or if a Aura pro clone, maybe somebody knows.
Click to expand...
I'm running 6 of those Sinuslive's...Chassis (2x SPL400 with external low-pass-filter) and seat (1x unknown 50w thingy) and am satisfied with them :)

Nowhere near the power of a Buttkicker gamer2 but in my apartment the Buttkicker was too loud for constant "vibes".

Price/quality is pretty good IMO :)
 
WarriusZero
Hi guys,

I was wondering if I should go the "Buttkicker" way with my setup: PS4/T300/Project CARS(soon)/homemade rig using a real car seat

How beneficial is it? Do I need extra equipment? (My DVD player is my home cinema amplifier, accompanied with 5 speakers and a subwoofer)

Additionally, and that's why I put quotes around the word Buttkicker, what about alternative tactile transducers, as the Buttkicker is too expensive for me?
I'm looking, for example at this rather cheap option:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0045W10VW/?tag=gtplanetuk-20


My new search for realism is partly fueled by you, @LogiForce , with your various descriptions of how the FFB should feel like, including a comment you posted this morning... :)

Thanks for all the help I can get, hoping this also helps others.
Click to expand...


I only just noticed this thread so apologies for being late to the party!

I was inspired to try tactile transducers with my PS3 by Mr Latte a few years ago and since then have done quite a bit of experimenting. There is a lot of good information on this thread, but I'll try and pull it together from what has been posted and my own findings.

A mono system works well with a console, increases immersion in the game and is cheaper and simpler to implement.

With a PS3 (PS4 should be the same) you can split the bass audio signal from your home cinema system to your subwoofer, feed it to a mono subwoofer amp to power one or more tactile transducers OR use the full range audio signal from your PS3 multi-out (set the console to simultaneously output 5.1 or 7.1 to your sound system and stereo via the RCA multi-out). With the first option the signal is likely to be up to 200Hz for a cheap home cinema system. To improve results and stop unpleasant sounds use an amp with filters such as a Mono Subwoofer Amp to restrict the signal to your transducers to about 100Hz.

If you use the full range audio signal from the multi-out it will be essential to use an amp with appropriate filters (although you can use FMod inline filters although I haven't personally used them).

If you live in the USA Parts Express is probably the best place to source tactile transducers. The best low cost Butt Kicker alternative is probably the Aura Pro AST2B Pro 4 bass shaker which is 50W RMS 4 ohm. Parts Express regularly put them on sale and I got mine for $39 each (£25 brought over by a relative). They are very effective at transmitting kerb strikes, road jump impacts and engine vibration. Range is from approximately 20 - 100 Hz with a resonant peak of 38Hz which coincides nicely with Merc V8 engines such as with the C63 in GT6. If you wire 2 in series you will need an amp capable of 50W RMS 8 ohm. If you wire 4 in series parallel you will need an amp capable of 200W RMS 4 ohm. Most subwoofer amps are rated in W RMS at 4 ohm. Many are capable of taking either a 4 ohm or 8 ohm load (at lower W RMS).

Unfortunately the Aura Pro is difficult to obtain in the UK - they used to be imported by the Shaker Centre, but not for a few years. The cheapest reasonably effective alternative in the UK is the Sinus Live Bass Pump 3 which is available from Conrad. It is also rated at 50W RMS 4 ohm, but in my experience it bottoms out at high power settings which results in some physical noise - you can reduce this by mounting its three legs on washers which reduce the likelihood of the mechanism from striking your seat/rig. It is less effective at transmitting kerb strikes and road impacts than the Aura Pro, but if it is the only transducer you have tried you will probably be satisfied with it for console use. In terms of mechanism it is similar to a giant sized Dayton puck. I did a brief comparison review of this shaker v the Aura Pro on GTPlanet a few years back.

The Reckhorn BS100 was superseded by the BS200 - if you are in the UK you can get these from the Shaker Centre (last time I checked they were £45 each). They are rated at 100W RMS at 4 ohm. It looks like a copy of an Aura Pro, but without the finned heat sink. I haven't tried them myself, but I believe Mr Latte has compared them with Aura Pro's.

To get the cheapest starter system for console tactile you can buy a powered subwoofer from Ebay for about £25 (look out for ones rated at 50W RMS or above with a 4 ohm driver, then strip the amp out, fit it in a small home made case and connect it to one Aura Pro or Sinus Live Bass Pump 3. You should have a decent starter system for around £60. I started with the amp stripped from a Gale 3070 powering one Aura pro. Later when I tried better amps I found that the filters on the Gale were not so good at filtering out the unwanted higher frequencies.

As others have said rubber isolators are vital. The Buttkicker ones are overpriced - substitute with the much cheaper Penn Elcom 9106 rubber feet from Parts Express. Alternatively use solid rubber door stops and / or rubber matting from Pound Shops. Car Exhaust bobbins can also be very useful - these have a an M6 (or similar) thread at each end bonded to a central rubber bobbin shaped like a cotton reel (useful for pedal isolation).

Experiment with transducers under the seat, under the pedal area and (if you have enough transducers) under the gear shifter.

Avoid buying the Buttkicker Gamer 1 unless you plan on using your own amp - the Gamer 1 has a reputation for over heating and even catching fire. The Gamer Transducer is a 2 ohm unit so it may be difficult to find a suitable alternative amp although you can wire 2 in series for a 4 ohm load. The BK Gamer 2 amp is much improved over the mark 1.

If you buy secondhand Buttkicker products it is likely that the amp will have failed, but the transducer will be fine. I got a very nice BK Advance transducer this way for £60. People sometimes personally import BK amps from the USA then switch them on in the UK without changing the fuses and rating setting - this causes them to fail, normally irreparably.

If you buy BK Mini LFE transducers you need the ones modified by the insertion of acoustic foam to stop unpleasant bottoming out noises - the ones sold by Simvibe in the USA and Shaker Centre in the UK have been modified and the ones sold by BK as the BK Mini LFE SE have also been modified.
 
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Ive had a bit of experience with Buttkicker's, namely the Mini LFE's and a Single Gamer 2.

I got my gamer 2 first and it BLEW my mind as to HOW much vibration i could get when i got it mounted onto a Socked into the Side of my Seat Risers. To the point of Not being able to see clearly if you got the right exhaust idle Freq or surface noise. Yes the Version 1 amp's are junk as Sick Cylinder mentioned.

Then came the Mini LFe's which i had a HECK of a time to get to work "properly imo" After confirming with Guitammer that the amp was fine and the shaker's were also, i set out to try and find the ideal mounting position to get the most shake i could. here's what i tried.

Directly to the seat raiser, Didn't work worth a bean, had less than 1/2 the vibration's compared to the Gamer 2 on the Socket.



Next was a Piece of Angle mounted to the seat, Than the shaker on the Angle. Also didn't work very well, Had to run the amp at +80% to get Any real shake compared to the SINGLE gamer 2.


Next was on the Bolting all 3 feet directly to the Seat frame itself, Also didn't work worth Shi*, Again less than 1/2 the vibrations from the Gamer and the fact i had to CRANK the amp didn't make me very comfortable.








In the end this lead to a serious problem that I had invested near 2X as much on a shaker setup that couldn't even match or come close to what the 1/2 price solution was which is the Gamer 2. So I got on the phone with Guitammer, Got ahold of Andrew Luden who at first was going to have my return the gear for a full refund which i wasn't too pleased about. I wanted this setup to work and was determined to get it to work.



First order of business is to find out why the heck the gamer 2 has THAT much more power on tap, Well Seeing as the gamer 2 and mini LFE's are essentially Identical except for the power rating(2ohm vs 4 ohm) i decided to do a little swaparoo.

I took one of the LFE's out of its cage and installed it into the Gamer 2 cage, Fired it on the Stock gamer amp (i know 2ohm vs 4ohm but this was just a test to ensure it wasn't the amp that was the problem despite being checked off as fine by the Guitammer tech)


AND HOLY SWEET MOTHER of everything that is Simracing, THERE"S the vibrations i was looking for. I feel that i had figured it out, The gamer 2 cage with its extending arm and ability to get Vibrating on Itself adds easily 2X more Vibrations to the whole experience.

So next stage is to talk to Andrew and figure something out. After explaining my testing to him he was somewhat shocked to say the least. They have never experienced what i had found which was a little strange but either way I KNEW the solution, I wanted 2 Gamer cages to place my LFE's in. Andrew and Co. obliged (for a small fee) and i ordered in a 2nd 2 shaker/Dayton kit for buddy and got the Gamer cages for him as well.





Now i run my LFE's at 30-50% volume and get all the Eye ball watering vibrations i could ask for. And if any of you Tactile guys get the chance to play World of Tanks in your rigs, I HIGHLY suggest it. When an Arty shell lands beside you or your caught in a large fire fight the Tactile bonus is AHFreeekinmazing, Lol.


On a side note, ive have had my Gamer 2 amp fail, but Guitammer was Very Prompt in sending out a replacement and never raised an eyebrow. I cant suggest Buttkickers enough. I feel the Aura's wouldn't meet my expectation's now after experiencing what i have so far.
 
Nick Moxley
Ive had a bit of experience with Buttkicker's, namely the Mini LFE's and a Single Gamer 2. I feel the Aura's wouldn't meet my expectation's now after experiencing what i have so far.
Click to expand...


Very interesting post Nick - I've always wondered whether the clamp on the Gamer's increased the effect and from your post obviously it does.

I've also found that it pays to experiment with mounting positions and methods. The construction of your chair can also make a big difference to the amount of effect. I use a 3 seat sofa - the ends have metal frames and the centre seat which I use has a wooden frame. I have found that one 50W Aura Shaker gives a fantastic effect if mounted to the metal framed seats, but even using four 50W shakers I get less effect from the wooden seat. It wasn't until I fitted a BK Advance (which is a large unit) to my wooden seat that I got a satisfactory shaking effect.

To get the best possible effect gamers need to be prepared to do some experimenting with mountings etc.
 
Agree interesting reading guys and indeed very much proven case that mounting and isolation factors are worth experimenting with.

WarriusZero
So many routes that can be taken...
Lots of peopIe gone different ways. I guess you have to determine do you want to buy new and have warranty or chance 2nd hand with higher risks?

This might be the first question you need to decide...

Nick, one day I hope yourself and more of you will join in taking the next step going for the BIG DADDY!!!

Trust me in saying, if you enjoy the sensation of tactile that until you feel the sheer depth/tight/weightiness of the LFE you's don't know what your missing!

BK LFE Mini's create a bit of shake and around 75-150 watts do a decent job but just impossible for them as they cannot replicate the power sensation and wonderful richness the full size unit adds. Like Logi referred to as speaker reference the Dayton Puck being like Tweeter types, Aura Pro Mini LFEs etc are akin to mids. The BK Advance/Pearl Throne like a small sub and the largest LFE is you guessed it like a big bad ass subwoofer If using speaker terminology to describe.

Running the LFE with a true factor of 10x the wattage DOES NOT mean 10x the volume sensation that it would be unbearable to sit in, naaaahhhhh instead all that power is in the gut grunt of the tactile sensation.

When you compliment the tactile you have giving you all that nice detail with the power of an LFE possibly with my own pref (inuke DSP 3000 or 6000 model) amps the realism level regards immersion is just on another level.

It also however allows you to free your smaller units to handle a bit less low end frequency range / Simvibe effects, letting them work better more efficent too...






Possibly cheapest in Europe/UK
http://www.thomann.de/gb/fischer_amps_buttkicker.htm?sid=0b9343d2a5c8815a7e594b9cf3fe5400
 
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