Self-control, or a lack thereof.

[machschnel]

It seems to me that most people just don't want to think for themselves, they just want the game to tell them what to do.

I do like to think for myself. Reading philosophy, debating with friends etc, but think for myself in a racing game? How exactly would one do that? This isn't a doctorate or something, I paid money to play a game. You guy's are really pulling at straws....

Gran Turismo 5 The Real Thinking Simulator

By doing all the challenging stuff first and saving your money. Which gets back to the point of self control, or the lack thereof.

Why must you to have the $20 000 000 car NOW? Where are you going to race it where its not totally overpowering the opponents?

Could you point me to the challenging stuff please? If by challenging you mean redoing 24 Hour races (which I'm in the process of doing), then I suppose that's challenging, more tedious than anything really.

I don't have to have it now either, the games been out over a month and a half now.

 

[Stigsblkcousin]

I do like to think for myself. Reading philosophy, debating with friends etc, but think for myself in a racing game? How exactly would one do that? This isn't a doctorate or something, I paid money to play a game. You guy's are really pulling at straws....

Gran Turismo 5 The Real Thinking Simulator

By doing exactly what this topic is about and what you're, for some odd reason, totally against. So I take it you don't play sandbox games where you can take it on pretty much any way you like? You want a racing games that run on rails? That's pretty boring, sir.

Could you point me to the challenging stuff please? If by challenging you mean redoing 24 Hour races (which I'm in the process of doing), then I suppose that's challenging, more tedious than anything really.

I don't have to have it now either, the games been out over a month and a half now.

So, I take it you've completed all the events and your grinding for a 20 million dollar car that you WANT? How are you going to complain about something you volunteered to do?

 

[alexleighton]

It seems to me that most people just don't want to think for themselves, they just want the game to tell them what to do.

That's exactly what I want, if I wanted to create my own adventure I would go get some grid paper and draw a maze and then solve it. But what fun is that when I already know the answer?

PD just caved to all the people saying "Waaahh this is TOO HARD!! I PAID FOR THIS GAME AND I AM ENTITLED TO BE ABLE TO DO ANY AND ALL CHALLENGES WITHOUT HAVING TO PRACTICE OR IMPROVE MY SKILLS AT ALL." Right when they had finally introduced a truly great feature to the game.

Now what we have is an unbalanced mess where some races are easy peasy with the stock car and others are clearly designed to use a tuned car. Why should I have to set my own difficulty level, where if I get it wrong the game simply lets me beat it? The whole point of a game is that it is something that actively challenges you and won't let you beat it unless you posess the necessary skill.

 

[machschnel]

So, I take it you've completed all the events and your grinding for a 20 million dollar car that you WANT? How are you going to complain about something you volunteered to do?

Because it is an item within a game I paid for, unattainable as a prize (or through any other method), therefore I have to grind. There is no choice. I paid $60 and you could argue GT5 has $60 worth of value. So how exactly to I get that $60 value without "volunteering" to do something I won't like, hence the "complaints".


Do you wonder why God of War 3 didn't ask you how much HP you wanted, how much HP your enemies should have, how much damage each attack is worth (for each weapon) etc? The answer is because the developers actually put some effort into making the difficulty so it suited everyone. I know, I know, Polyphony were too busy modeling the back seat belt of a Skyline to worry about something as trivial as, you know, gameplay.

 

[Stigsblkcousin]

Because it is an item within a game I paid for, unattainable as a prize (or through any other method), therefore I have to grind. There is no choice. I paid $60 and you could argue GT5 has $60 worth of value. So how exactly to I get that $60 value without "volunteering" to do something I won't like, hence the "complaints".


Do you wonder why God of War 3 didn't ask you how much HP you wanted, how much HP your enemies should have, how much damage each attack is worth (for each weapon) etc? The answer is because the developers actually put some effort into making the difficulty so it suited everyone. I know, I know, Polyphony were too busy modeling the back seat belt of a Skyline to worry about something as trivial as, you know, gameplay.

Your 1st point: Do you feel that way about other games? You paid $60, so your entitled to see the ending movie immediately, right? No.

Also, that car it is attainable, just in ways you don't want to see or do. You could sell all your cars, you could've played through the game without buying cars and/or modding. Nothing on that disc is "impossible".

"Well, you dont have to play the same levels or do the same things over and over.."

RPGs say, "Hello."

Your second point is apples and oranges, but I can see you do prefer linear games.

 

[BigYoSpeck]

It seems to me that most people just don't want to think for themselves, they just want the game to tell them what to do.

But that's the whole point of a game. If a board game maker gave you a square piece of card and some coloured pieces but no instructions or rules and just left you to find ways of making it entertaining would you buy that or would you buy monopoly with it's clear set challenge?

If they at least gave us back A-Spec points we would at least have some indication of how challenging we are making it. I've just finished all the Bonus Race 2 events. I started them all in the cars stock, didn't come close to winning, then tweaked them and won. But I don't know if it was my driver skill winning them in a fair car or if I just gave myself enough of a crutch to beat them.

 

[JJ72]

Your second point is apples and oranges, but I can see you do prefer linear games.

You completely missed the point, how about I use a more open ended example, say FIFA.

what PD presents us now, is to provide no difficulty setting, but ask us to find out whether we can beat chelsea with say....Gillingham. And make using any team of equal strength worthless.

When I race in a Super GT series, I'd like to use a Super GT car for immersion sake, but no, I have to use a street car because the logical choice is overkill.

PD is doing it ass backwards.

 

[buziii]

Yeah I can't understand it myself, they give us free reign to tune our cars how we want, maybe leave them standard, maybe spec them up, maybe choose are car that's got a battle on it's hands, but it seems some people just tune to the max because they can and then complain because PD made it too easy!!

And now I see it's carried over to the 3rd seasonal event. What they have done people, in my opinion, is made the game accessible for everyone, made the rewards attainable no matter how good of a driver you are, so everyone can experience that rare car that's going to cost them 20,000,000 credits. It's up to you how easy you make that experience.

Exactly! I've argued this very point many times. It just seems so simple and logical. It's beyond me why anyone would care if others have to use more mods to win the races. How does that affect their own game experience in any way?

 

[FULL_THROTTLE]

I would do this if the A-Spec points worked like GT4, there the slower your ride, the more points you get, in GT5 the points you earn seemed to be fixed, so it doesn't matter that a X2010 (or something really fast) is entered into events, it just takes absolutely no skill to win like this though

 

[Holyman]

I figure that if the amount of XP earned per race differed according to the (bhp?) disparity between the player car and the AI cars, I would be more inclined to run more evenly matched races.

Thing is, I also want access to the widest range of features and functionality in the Game, so I'm not keen on the events, cars and tracks being restricted by XP level. If there was a parallel incentive system for XP - say leaderboards - then I wouldn't feel compelled to grind just to unlock elements of the Game.

I think the Sebastian Vettel challenge is one of the better elements of the Game, because it's like an extra-curricular activity. In between the A- and Bob-Spec events, it is nice to spend a while hacking at a challenge that is entirely skill-dependent, and watching my success rate slowly increment up over time.

Without the XP lock, I could rattle through on over-powered cars to access everything; then return at my leisure to show my chops by beating the FGT race in a Fiat 500 for a gazillion XP points (or something similar...).

 

[Parnelli Bone]

But that's the whole point of a game. If a board game maker gave you a square piece of card and some coloured pieces but no instructions or rules and just left you to find ways of making it entertaining would you buy that or would you buy monopoly with it's clear set challenge?

Polyphony gives us far more than what you're implying, far more than cardboard and colored pieces. Funny analogy, though.

If you're overkilling a race, getting bored by it, all you have to do (usually) is come back with less power/a lesser car, or inferior parts. It's that simple.

If they at least gave us back A-Spec points we would at least have some indication of how challenging we are making it. I've just finished all the Bonus Race 2 events. I started them all in the cars stock, didn't come close to winning, then tweaked them and won. But I don't know if it was my driver skill winning them in a fair car or if I just gave myself enough of a crutch to beat them.

I wouldn't worry about it. Did you win by a considerable margin, or was the race tighter? That's the only thing I fuss over; trying to make racing close as I can, so I forget about life and bills for awhile.

I'll agree that it would be great if PD didn't pander to all the n00bs out there, and started back with A-spec points or some other restrictions, things would be great. Once again, let's hope DLC will fix all this. But when folks say it's basically impossible to find a challenge in GT5, you're simply wrong.

If you're blowing away the Sunday Cup in a Skyline or a Miata, enforce your own ruling and come back with a Fiat or whatever. It's really not that hard to figure out.

 

[JJ72]

Another thing, using a slower car to make it artificially difficult isn't that fun or realistic, You are darting left and right under braking and in the turns, overtaking everything and then on the straight they all zoom pass again. You have to be really aggressive and squeeze past everything, a far cry from setting up a calculated overtaking move for several laps when two car is so equal and you have to create chances.

 

[scooterlord]

Although id prefer restricted rules for each race, like special events and licenses i wanted to point this out.

In the audi seasonal event with stock car i could get 2nd by the 3rd lap and then the distance between the first only increased. I put tires, air filter, exhaust and got first. Then i took everything off but tires - sport softs instead of comfort stocks and ran again. I got 1st again. So i bough the lotus evora just to see what tires it had on... Guess what? Sport hards. This is just unfair, you couldnthave won thelotus without tire change..

Restrictions would be best, as long as there was too big of a campaign for casual gamers to also be able to enjoy until they couldnt keep up or improve. You cant finish every game you buy can you?

 

[BigYoSpeck]

Polyphony gives us far more than what you're implying, far more than cardboard and colored pieces. Funny analogy, though.

If you're overkilling a race, getting bored by it, all you have to do (usually) is come back with less power/a lesser car, or inferior parts. It's that simple.

Oh I over simplified it for sure

As for it being simple, that's the problem. Am I winning because I've genuinely driven exceptionally, or have I just given myself enough of a crutch to kid myself it was a challenge but I was never really in any danger of losing?

I wouldn't worry about it. Did you win by a considerable margin, or was the race tighter? That's the only thing I fuss over; trying to make racing close as I can, so I forget about life and bills for awhile.

I'll agree that it would be great if PD didn't pander to all the n00bs out there, and started back with A-spec points or some other restrictions, things would be great. Once again, let's hope DLC will fix all this. But when folks say it's basically impossible to find a challenge in GT5, you're simply wrong.

If you're blowing away the Sunday Cup in a Skyline or a Miata, enforce your own ruling and come back with a Fiat or whatever. It's really not that hard to figure out.

Again it's too vague to lay out your own challenge. If I gold a license test, or a Special Event I know it's because I've met the standard PD has decided deserves gold and I would like to think that they have tweaked the difficulty level of their own game to be spot on. A-Spec and Seasonal events though I just haven't got time or patience to sit doing the same race until I find the absolute lowest limit car I can possibly beat it on, I want to turn a game on and be entertained for an hour or two not nurture mild OCD, which turns them into an exercise in box ticking. And this is a shame because I would genuinely prefer to be challenged, which is why I paid for a game hoping it's creators had finished it.

 

[sam_i_am]

... I'd say that the events were added and decided very late in the development of GT5 and PD didn't have the time to test and add some meaningful restrictions for each specific event. Instead they just made it very simple.

👍 You know. some times the simplest explanations is the right explanation. It takes time and effort to make a balanced race (or anything for that matter). To complicate things further, balanced for me is not really balanced for you. So, they just scrapped the limits and threw the events out the door (IMO of course).

As a lot of people are saying, first seasonal event was a lot of fun. I managed to get gold without SRF on a couple of them, but got silver on all of them with some effort. It was fun. When time was running out, I just enabled SRF and got gold for the XP and money.

I still try to pick my car that makes it challenging to my level, but it is not as fun. Some times I feel lazy and just blow through it.

E.g. For the Prius, I used Sports-soft tires and did an oil change. Managed to overtake the CRZ in the last lap in the third try.

Perhaps a thread with such information can work as an informal set of limits.

 

[MuchoJimbo]

What I do before I race, I check what other cars I am racing and tune my car around the same as the others, and then race.

To me it is no fun to have a car that is way above the others.

But on the other hand, have you ever noticed in some races, there is that 1 car that is just terribly slow? I have lapped a few cars before, along with 1 or 2 other AI.

 

[Dimitrov]

But on the other hand, have you ever noticed in some races, there is that 1 car that is just terribly slow? I have lapped a few cars before, along with 1 or 2 other AI.

Like the Mini Marcos on that Mini Challenge. It instantly drops back right after start.

 

[SJames052]

Is there a list of the "rabbits" and the "turtles" for each race? Do they cycle or is it one consistent car?

 

[invader67]

I think one of the problems with GT is that you start out with really crappy cars and you have to slog before you get enough points to start buying decent cars - this is particularly frustrating for those of us who have been doing this since GT1. The best way to do this is to load up your cars and demolish all of the early races to get them out of the way and get some dosh and some XP. The problem then becomes that one tend to continues that trend ever upwards and every race you are in you are stunned if you aren't in first by the first turn. Then you start to think, "This is kind of boring."

What most people don't do is turn off the aids and start re-racing some of those early races with bone stock cars and find out what great racing there really is and how if you are patient and don't expect to dominate every race how rewarding it really is. Try buying the 89 MX-5 from the Premium dealership and racing it in the Roadster race. It's a blast. Sure there's always that one car that's quicker than everything else, but I've found that you can gradually tweak out your own car to catch this guy on the last lap and beat him. That always feels great.

One of the things I'd like to see PD do is allow you to race a certain type of car on any given track. NFS Shift does this and it adds an elemnt to the game that keeps it fresh.

 

[SJames052]

One of the things I'd like to see PD do is allow you to race a certain type of car on any given track.

I think earlier in the thread, or maybe elsewhere, someone mentioned that one solution would be to award credits and xp for Arcade mode gameplay, where the opponents are "equal."

 

[stealingfire]

I think it's worth mentioning that PD calls GT the real driving simulator. I think that part of their intention in creating the game is simply to give people a chance to enjoy driving different cars around a bunch of fun tracks. The game is largely set up as a series of races, but I think the purpose is more to enjoy the ride. To be honest, I often have more fun with the game driving alone on the Nurburgring (or whatever track) trying to beat a previous time, or better learn the course, or even just for the fun of it than I do racing a bunch of cars in A-Spec mode. Because of this view, I guess I'm a little more tolerant of the lack of enforced challenge in GT, and a little more accepting of the idea of entering overpowered cars in some races. People should be able to drive what they want to drive if that's how they enjoy the driving experience.

On the other hand, GT is based on a series of races, and I do have some opinions on how to get the most out of the driving experience in them. The idea of the "fully tuned" car is thrown around this forum all the time. However, if you fully tune a car, it really isn't that car anymore. I think the goals of people who fully tune are often to ensure a win, or to get very different cars to drive in a way that "feels" similar to what they like. I know there are many other reasons for tuning, including simple enjoyment, but I really enjoy taking a stock car, maybe with an upgrade in tires, into a race. The surprising thing is that you may find that the car actually drives better without all that extra power, and that your lap times start improving. Learning to tune properly is not easy, but really messing up a car by not tuning properly is very easy. My friend Mark used to fully tune all his cars and was struggling with events that I beating easily with small tire upgrades. When he started using the simplified approach, he found he actually got better at the game. He was beating himself by overtuning.

I think the problem at the root of this debate is really patience. GT is a game with a ton of cars, many of which drive very differently, and PD wants you to go out and try them all, and have fun driving differently. The problem is that when you tell people to have fun and drive, but put that message into the context of a series of races, the desire to win now overcomes the patience necessary to have fun driving differently, and what you end up with are people with garages full of fully tuned cars. It doesn't really bother me if people are winning every race because they are entering superior cars in them, so long as they are actually experimenting with different types of cars and getting enjoyment out of the driving experience itself. I guess that's why I'm not upset with PD about the lack of an enforced challenge in most races, I think the drive is supposed to be just as important in the race in this game.

 

[rileyra]

Because people want to feel superior to others but they are lazy and need for someone else to distinguish their self worth for them.

 

[R6Goblin]

I read a lot on here about how 'a-spec is ruined' because you can enter a car that is overpowered and decimate the competition, making the game far too easy. Well here's how I view it.

Notice how there is no difficulty option? You can't adjust the difficulty of the AI drivers etc. What you can adjust however is the vehicle you choose to enter, the state of tune, the tires (notice how in a-spec tires are open, b-spec not so). So if you lack self-control and enter a car way over classed, then yes of course you will win. And by some distance. But who's cheating who here? Why not show some self-control and enter a car that is similarly powered? Or for a challenge of your driving ability, a car that is underpowered?

Getting difficulty levels right for game producers must be a nightmare. There will always be those that say it's too difficult, those that like it, and those that say it's too easy. Out of three camps, you'll only ever please one. But what I think PD have done here is set the level of the AI for the individual race and then allowed us to decide just how difficult the race will be.

A bonus to this is that by simply increasing the power of your car, you are not automatically making it easier for yourself, as leading by 30sec will make you lazy, leading to stupid crashes, and also bore you. So this encourages you to learn to drive the cars better with less power, actually improving your driving technique rather than relying on an out and out power advantage.

Or I could just be waffling. Or I could have missed this from a thread a month ago. But whatever, it works for me.

(Oh, and by 'driving ability' and 'technique', I'm obviously just referring to 'in-game'.)

AMEN BROTHA!!!

Not that anyone cares, but I like to go through all those "lame" prize cars one at a time. I take them in stock trim, no oil change, no mods and then fling them around one of the club circuits. If I win, I pick a race that's in the next "difficulty" tier. Once I start losing races then I only do things like suspension or weight reduction. I save the power and the tires for later. This method takes longer, but its much more fun to learn the nuance of each car before I slap a stage 3 turbo on it.

Shoot, I even used the course maker to create a few test tracks of my own. 1 with heavy elevation tight corners, one with hills, one with blind drop turns and a flat circuit type track. Driving is the name of the game and I likes it.

 

[R3LF13]

I read a lot on here about how 'a-spec is ruined' because you can enter a car that is overpowered and decimate the competition, making the game far too easy. Well here's how I view it.

Notice how there is no difficulty option? You can't adjust the difficulty of the AI drivers etc. What you can adjust however is the vehicle you choose to enter, the state of tune, the tires (notice how in a-spec tires are open, b-spec not so). So if you lack self-control and enter a car way over classed, then yes of course you will win. And by some distance. But who's cheating who here? Why not show some self-control and enter a car that is similarly powered? Or for a challenge of your driving ability, a car that is underpowered?

Getting difficulty levels right for game producers must be a nightmare. There will always be those that say it's too difficult, those that like it, and those that say it's too easy. Out of three camps, you'll only ever please one. But what I think PD have done here is set the level of the AI for the individual race and then allowed us to decide just how difficult the race will be.

A bonus to this is that by simply increasing the power of your car, you are not automatically making it easier for yourself, as leading by 30sec will make you lazy, leading to stupid crashes, and also bore you. So this encourages you to learn to drive the cars better with less power, actually improving your driving technique rather than relying on an out and out power advantage.

Or I could just be waffling. Or I could have missed this from a thread a month ago. But whatever, it works for me.

(Oh, and by 'driving ability' and 'technique', I'm obviously just referring to 'in-game'.)

to the OP, I agree with your post for the most part, but I do think that some scaling of the AI would have been better. and here's why. When I buy a car in GT I like to do a very base level tune on it. I'm not saying I max it out, and the car picked is always appropriate for the race, but a few parts I find perfectly reasonable.

The reason for this is partially realism. If I was going to take a car to a track day, or a club level racing series, I would think that at a minimum the car would need suspension and brake upgrades, things like the back seats and spare tire removed, and perhaps air filter and cat back exhaust upgrades.

The other reason I do this is for the enjoyment of the car. I just like the way a lighter weight version with coil overs feels, but in doing so I don't actually want to have an advantage over the AI because I agree with you--it’s much more fun to be challenged.

In cases like this I find myself with an internal struggle...I want the part, but I don't want it to give me an advantage. Wouldn't it be better if the AI could scale to take into account my upgrades. I don't want it to make the AI cars unrealistic. If you take a gun to a knife fight then that's your fault, but I can’t help but think that the “internal struggle” that I feel in the tune shop could be mitigated somehow.

 

[Wedge598]

I read a lot on here about how 'a-spec is ruined' because you can enter a car that is overpowered and decimate the competition, making the game far too easy. Well here's how I view it.

Notice how there is no difficulty option? You can't adjust the difficulty of the AI drivers etc. What you can adjust however is the vehicle you choose to enter, the state of tune, the tires (notice how in a-spec tires are open, b-spec not so). So if you lack self-control and enter a car way over classed, then yes of course you will win. And by some distance. But who's cheating who here? Why not show some self-control and enter a car that is similarly powered? Or for a challenge of your driving ability, a car that is underpowered?

Getting difficulty levels right for game producers must be a nightmare. There will always be those that say it's too difficult, those that like it, and those that say it's too easy. Out of three camps, you'll only ever please one. But what I think PD have done here is set the level of the AI for the individual race and then allowed us to decide just how difficult the race will be.

A bonus to this is that by simply increasing the power of your car, you are not automatically making it easier for yourself, as leading by 30sec will make you lazy, leading to stupid crashes, and also bore you. So this encourages you to learn to drive the cars better with less power, actually improving your driving technique rather than relying on an out and out power advantage.

Or I could just be waffling. Or I could have missed this from a thread a month ago. But whatever, it works for me.

(Oh, and by 'driving ability' and 'technique', I'm obviously just referring to 'in-game'.)

Excellent post and I agree 100%. Truth is Forza is the same way. GT5 and Forza are great because they give you an incredible amount of flexibilty to tweak your car to match the competition. Forza has a difficulty setting but I just set it to Hard and tweaked my cars anyway.

On the flip side it can be difficult to find just the right car and upgrades to make yourself competitive. In Forza it's a little easier because the cars have a performance index to compare and that system works pretty well. In GT5 I use the max power to quickly gauge what car I might need. Unfortunately I often find that even with a seemingly underpowered car I can easily compete with the AI. On occasion though it goes the other way and there is that one AI car that is really fast.

As imperfect as it is, you can make it enjoyable if you use a little self control and some trial and error. I have to give the developers some slack because it's a daunting task to create a game with so many upgradeable cars that plays competitively for all people. They've done all they can do by leaving it in your hands to play the game the way you want to play it.

 

[calan_svc]

to the OP, I agree with your post for the most part, but I do think that some scaling of the AI would have been better. and here's why. When I buy a car in GT I like to do a very base level tune on it. I'm not saying I max it out, and the car picked is always appropriate for the race, but a few parts I find perfectly reasonable.

The reason for this is partially realism. If I was going to take a car to a track day, or a club level racing series, I would think that at a minimum the car would need suspension and brake upgrades, things like the back seats and spare tire removed, and perhaps air filter and cat back exhaust upgrades.

The other reason I do this is for the enjoyment of the car. I just like the way a lighter weight version with coil overs feels, but in doing so I don't actually want to have an advantage over the AI because I agree with you--it’s much more fun to be challenged.

In cases like this I find myself with an internal struggle...I want the part, but I don't want it to give me an advantage. Wouldn't it be better if the AI could scale to take into account my upgrades. I don't want it to make the AI cars unrealistic. If you take a gun to a knife fight then that's your fault, but I can’t help but think that the “internal struggle” that I feel in the tune shop could be mitigated somehow.

This. ^

Well said. 👍