Serious limitations of the PP system?

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panjandrum

panjandrum

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I'm happy to see PPs back as an option. I also think it is nice to see it as an option rather than dictated.

However, I was very disappointed to see that, as far as I can tell the PP system doesn't take into consideration many of the car modifications. For example, my Alpine had exactly the same PP rating regardless of whether I had fitted the racing-suspension or was running on stock suspension. It also didn't take into consideration any number of other things (racing clutch, etc.). Unfortunately this dramatically reduces the effectiveness of the PP system, since a street car modified with a racing suspension will outperform the stock car considerably. As far as I could tell, tire type and compound also had no effect? I'm very confused, as it looks like PD has given us an excellent tool but then left out so many critical factors that it's of almost zero use.

What's everyone else figured out? Does the PP system take anything into consideration outside of weight, power and downforce? Am I just missing something?
 
X2010, 999PP at Indy: ~0:36 lap times.
X2010, 965PP at Indy: ~0:31 lap times.

As you can see, the PPs don't take that much into cinsideration and don't directly tie to lap times.
Also, tyres don't affect the PP at all.

So, yeah, it's just downforce, HP/torque and weight.
 
It's flawed. The Alfa TZ2 is in the same league as supercars based on the PP numbers alone.
 
Changing tires does change the PP, it just doesn't show the change until you exit the tuning screen. Minor glitch there, I think.
 
yeah its awful my toyota gt one is only 693 pp whereas a comparable (but slightly worse) car like my bentley speed 8 is 799. Even my zonda c12s is ranked higher than the gt one.

In general I'm loving the update, though.
 
Forgetful
Changing tires does change the PP, it just doesn't show the change until you exit the tuning screen. Minor glitch there, I think.
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Really? Weird...

I had the X2010 at 965 with racing hards, switched to racing softs and left the garage. Reentered it and it was still at 965. Might be only the X2010, though.

Haven't bothered to try with another car.
 
Shant J.
It's flawed. The Alfa TZ2 is in the same league as supercars based on the PP numbers alone.
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Yes, I noticed that as well. And it's the same for the PDI Kart, which has a PP number greater than cars like the Elise 111R.

I guess it's pretty clear at this point why the PP system wasn't in the game from day one. Even now, there are some glaring issues. Hopefully they'll continue to refine it and make updates. But perhaps the OP is correct, and it's based on data that just don't take enough variables into consideration. And so with certain cars, in relation to others, we end up with a flawed system.

I was very curious to see that different model JGTC cars had slightly different numbers. And I always thought that, they weren't perfectly matched, with the NSX & Nissan being faster than the Lexus or Supra. And the PP numbers do reflect this, all else being equal.

But just difference in the tracks can make a huge difference and the PP system doesn't take this into account either.
 
I just joined a couple random PP restricted races online. My initial reaction is that the cars were at least somewhat more comparable than previously. Not perfect by any stretch, but better. That's just an initial reaction after a few races around the ring.

As has been pointed out: Now that the system is in place, hopefully PD will tune and refine the system until all is good (I have found that many of the cars I like most don't really work in the PP system well. I'll find them rated in the same PP range of cars which are tremendously faster. The Alfa TZ2 is the most obvious example. Definitely doesn't seem to be positioned properly.)
 
NSX>GOD
yeah its awful my toyota gt one is only 693 pp whereas a comparable (but slightly worse) car like my bentley speed 8 is 799. Even my zonda c12s is ranked higher than the gt one.

In general I'm loving the update, though.
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It's not perfect, but in this case I'd say the Bentley is that much better than the GT-One. The GT-One is probably faster on some courses due to the great top speed but if you pick a "neutral" track, or average all the lap times from all courses, I'm almost certain the Speed 8 will edge the GT-One out.
 
Having raced a ton online from the original Forza and its sequels, this pp system has produced some of the most closest and competitive racing I've ever experienced in a videogame even in the short time this patch has been out.
In the last race I finished 0.060 seconds behind the leader and I only got 3rd place. Tightest podium you ever saw.

Anybody expecting a perfect system obviously doesn't understand even the most basic physics and needs to get a refund on their education.
 
NSX>GOD
yeah its awful my toyota gt one is only 693 pp whereas a comparable (but slightly worse) car like my bentley speed 8 is 799. Even my zonda c12s is ranked higher than the gt one.

In general I'm loving the update, though.
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Some people are able to post accurately and confidently on their first thought. You are not one of those people.
 
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panjandrum
I'm very confused, as it looks like PD has given us an excellent tool but then left out so many critical factors that it's of almost zero use.
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I have to say im disappointed, But not surprised. Afterall That is the entirety of GT5 isnt it. A great core, but surrounded with so many insane decisions,crazy ideas and things only half done that it is a bit crap.

:( I dont think ill still be playing when 1.07 comes out. PD are just proving time and time again that they cant do something PROPERLY.
 
I was happy to see that tires don't change the pp level and now sad to hear that it might still change pp. Tire choices should be a strategic decision based on wear versus grip. I didn't like how GT5P would let you increase power or decrease weight if you chose lower grip tires. I don't know of a real life race series that allows you to do that.
 
This PP score works identical to how it did it let's say forza 2. There will always be cars that are ranked equally but one will always be faster than the other. There will always be a top tier car at every PP Lvl. All in all this was a fantastic update and I'll be on GT5 for a whiiiiiile.
 
Zathra5_
I was happy to see that tires don't change the pp level and now sad to hear that it might still change pp. Tire choices should be a strategic decision based on wear versus grip. I didn't like how GT5P would let you increase power or decrease weight if you chose lower grip tires. I don't know of a real life race series that allows you to do that.
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Tires in this game can be worth an extra 10 seconds a lap maybe more.
I think they deserve to be included in the PP system.

A simple tire change could equal the effect of another 80 BHP added.
 
tires def change PP. there is a glitch i think as mentioned above where when you change the tire from inside the tuning menu it doesnt change the PP. you have to leave and come back or change the tires from the settings menu before you tune the car
 
Zathra5_
I was happy to see that tires don't change the pp level and now sad to hear that it might still change pp. Tire choices should be a strategic decision based on wear versus grip. I didn't like how GT5P would let you increase power or decrease weight if you chose lower grip tires. I don't know of a real life race series that allows you to do that.
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There is virtually no advantage to using racing hards compared to racing softs. they last the same length (when they shouldn't) but racing softs have way more grip. Not to mention when your on lesser tires, the car is loses control faster which wears the tires out faster.
 
Spagetti69
Tires in this game can be worth an extra 10 seconds a lap maybe more.
I think they deserve to be included in the PP system.

A simple tire change could equal the effect of another 80 BHP added.
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That's what tire restrictions are for. You shouldn't be able to select lesser tires and bump up the power.

xNEVER-ONEx
There is virtually no advantage to using racing hards compared to racing softs. they last the same length (when they shouldn't) but racing softs have way more grip. Not to mention when your on lesser tires, the car is loses control faster which wears the tires out faster.
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That's one thing that PD needs to correct. There should be an advantage to going with racing hard versus soft with respect to wear and not with respect to increasing power or decreasing weight.
 
Tyres are included in the PP points.
 
The idea of PP is good but we'll have to wait for some updates to get them work! I mean I have all 6 stealth cars, are all fully tuned and the 787b is the one with the lowest PP :confused:
 
I'm not sure I understand these criticisms of the PP system where people are showing that you can get faster lap times with cars with lower PP and then complaining about its accuracy.

Are you guys expecting a perfect metric where higher PP cars will always get better lap times than lower PP cars? Doesn't it make sense that drivers can actually be consistently faster with lower-performance cars in some situations and that the PP cannot ever factor your driving ability and preferences? A given setup can be very well suited to one driver and yet a different driver may not be able to use it nearly as well.

After a certain point it stops making sense to incorporate more and more factors into a performance metric anyway.

If you understand it as just a slightly more sophisticated kind of power/weight ratio, it is a superbly useful metric, especially since all we had before was HP and weight and you had to figure the ratio in your head.

And the kart is clearly an outlier, it lives in a performance envelope totally different from most all of the other cars, especially in terms of scale, I am not surprised the PP rating breaks down with it any more than I would expect it to be competitive with every car that shares its power/weight ratio.
 
Tires definitely affected PP in the race I was in... I think perhaps only switching from classes of tire does though ie comfort/sport/racing.
 
I don't see the point of pp at all just set weight limit and bhp and away u go. I give the people in my lobbies the option of bhp so i am not just picking the bhp to suit my own garage and we have some great online battles.
 
PP works for me. Way more competitive and way more fun. Not only that but just by the points system alone you basically have a limitless garage of cars with tuning options for any given race.

And tires are factored in.

The only people here bitching are the ones that like sandbagging people. I think it's funny how some of you guys (not all) sit on a forum and consistently bitch and moan about a game yet none of you get off your ass to make your own or actually work for PD.

The part where someone complained about the Kart being out or proportion to an Elise made me laugh, cuz you know...... Karts can race against regular cars. LMAO!
 
Here i am still at it. Only this time I won't go to the pen if they catch me.
 
I did a few PP restricted races yesterday and almost all of them were close and intense. Like someone said a few posts earlier, races are better now, not perfect but better than earlier.

However way you look at it, its a step up from only HP/weight/tyres restrictions and THEY didn't take into account suspensions etc.

Let's wait for the PP to be tuned properly.

PS: Tyres do change PP.
 
PP is working well, I disagree to all who is saying PP is wrong..

Now thanks to PD online racing has more otpions to restrict. if you dont like it use old system with HP and weight!

New pp system is just as it was in Prologue, and it worked well, now online people can drive what ever they want and still be competitive with very similar conditions.

PS online racing has proved many times, it all depends on a racer! not the car. you can take Ferrari F1 agaisnt some guy with mini and still lose if you spin out all the time!
 
ara
I'm not sure I understand these criticisms of the PP system where people are showing that you can get faster lap times with cars with lower PP and then complaining about its accuracy.

Are you guys expecting a perfect metric where higher PP cars will always get better lap times than lower PP cars? Doesn't it make sense that drivers can actually be consistently faster with lower-performance cars in some situations and that the PP cannot ever factor your driving ability and preferences? A given setup can be very well suited to one driver and yet a different driver may not be able to use it nearly as well.

After a certain point it stops making sense to incorporate more and more factors into a performance metric anyway.

If you understand it as just a slightly more sophisticated kind of power/weight ratio, it is a superbly useful metric, especially since all we had before was HP and weight and you had to figure the ratio in your head.

And the kart is clearly an outlier, it lives in a performance envelope totally different from most all of the other cars, especially in terms of scale, I am not surprised the PP rating breaks down with it any more than I would expect it to be competitive with every car that shares its power/weight ratio.
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QFT:tup:
 
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