Serious question: Gamepad VS Wheel, which has more steering capacity?

[NixxxoN]

All corners that require a lift off the throttle when encountering understeer on the wheel. Turning more will not help.

This depends of so many factors

 

[FussyFez]

This depends of so many factors

If your going to hit the wall or go off track due to understeer, steering more will not help.

I'm not lying to you.

You are going too fast, and must scrub speed, or change the attitude of the car, by lifting off or left foot braking, to make the front tuck.

Turning more will not remedy understeer.

This is coming from someone with 7 years real life experience driving too fast in FWD cars, and 5 or 6 years using a DFGT with GT and LFS.

 

[NixxxoN]

If your going to hit the wall or go off track due to understeer, steering more will not help.

I'm not lying to you.

You are going too fast, and must scrub speed, or change the attitude of the car, by lifting off or left foot braking, to make the front tuck.

Turning more will not remedy understeer.

This is coming from someone with 7 years real life experience driving too fast in FWD cars, and 5 or 6 years using a DFGT with GT and LFS.

Well, I mean you are right about understeering cars, but with oversteering/tail-happy cars its not the case.

 

[FussyFez]

Well, I mean you are right about understeering cars, but with oversteering/tail-happy cars its not the case.

With oversteery cars, turning into the corner more will only cause a spin once the car starts sliding...

I had the impression from your initial post that you were talking about high speed understeer.

 

[NixxxoN]

With oversteery cars, turning into the corner more will only cause a spin once the car starts sliding...

I had the impression from your initial post that you were talking about high speed understeer.

That's unless you can correct the tail slide.
I was talking about all cars in general.

 

[FussyFez]

That's unless you can correct the tail slide.
I was talking about all cars in general.

No your missing the point.


To correct a rear end slide with only the steering, you will go from steering into the corner, to steeing out of the corner, correcting the slide, then quickly back to steering into the corner once the rear regains grip.

At no point would you steer further into the corner to correct a slide from the rear.

This applies to any car.

Same with high speed understeer, in any car, be it 150bhp FF or ferrari f430, steering into the corner more, will not correct the understeer and tighten your line.

You must lift off the throttle, to shift the weight of the car forwards, and in most cases, actually reduce steering angle slightly for the front end to regain proper grip.

Any slide, be it front or rear, is normally due to excessive steering angle, combined with throttle input.


It is all to do with tyre slip angle.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slip_angle


Id wager a guess that the ds3 gives you 5-10% more steering angle than the maximum usable slip angle at the given speed.

What this means is that when you are at 'full stick' and understeering, your tyres are past the optimal slip angle. Adding any more steering angle will just cause more understeer.

What the wheel gives you is a choice in how that steering angle is applied, and therefore how quickly you get to the desired steering angle.




I hope I haven't come across as patronising, I'm just trying to help.

 

[Baron Blitz Red]

This is another issue that I would hope will be addressed in future GT's. If you think of "lesser" games like the NFS Shift series (as an example), you were able to adjust certain aspects of the controller. Adjustments of dead zones, turning ability and sensitivities for both throttle and braking were available and quite handy to customise to the individual's driving style or comfort level. This option may be advantageous to the people who cannot or will not use a wheel, and even level the playing field a bit. If I remember correctly, even the wheel users had this opportunity and could dial in their own settings accordingly.

If we had this kind of option in the Gran Turismo series, I believe the people who explored this option would benefit greatly, and the differences between the great controller debate may lessen to a certain extent. The "Controller Steering Sensitivity" option is a step in the right direction, but needs to be refined further to gain the freedom enjoyed in the Shift series. Just an opinion, respectfully submitted.

Cheers

 

[MrGrado]

Two photos. Both turning with DS3 at maximum steering input. One car stationary, one car in motion. One car with maximum steering lock. One car with less than maximum steering angle (and Id wager a guess that it is less than optimum steering angle seeing as the car neither corrects the skid or stays on the track).

 

[NixxxoN]

No your missing the point.


To correct a rear end slide with only the steering, you will go from steering into the corner, to steeing out of the corner, correcting the slide, then quickly back to steering into the corner once the rear regains grip.

At no point would you steer further into the corner to correct a slide from the rear.

This applies to any car.

Same with high speed understeer, in any car, be it 150bhp FF or ferrari f430, steering into the corner more, will not correct the understeer and tighten your line.

You must lift off the throttle, to shift the weight of the car forwards, and in most cases, actually reduce steering angle slightly for the front end to regain proper grip.

Any slide, be it front or rear, is normally due to excessive steering angle, combined with throttle input.


It is all to do with tyre slip angle.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slip_angle


Id wager a guess that the ds3 gives you 5-10% more steering angle than the maximum usable slip angle at the given speed.

What this means is that when you are at 'full stick' and understeering, your tyres are past the optimal slip angle. Adding any more steering angle will just cause more understeer.

What the wheel gives you is a choice in how that steering angle is applied, and therefore how quickly you get to the desired steering angle.

I hope I haven't come across as patronising, I'm just trying to help.

This is a bit weird.
All I know is that sometimes I slide RWD cars through corners to take them faster, using throttle control of course. Its not easy and it might eat your tires but it works for pure cornering speed in certain situations.

Two photos. Both turning with DS3 at maximum steering input. One car stationary, one car in motion. One car with maximum steering lock. One car with less than maximum steering angle (and Id wager a guess that it is less than optimum steering angle seeing as the car neither corrects the skid or stays on the track).

thanks, i guess this is a proof.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

This is a bit weird.
All I know is that sometimes I slide RWD cars through corners to take them faster, using throttle control of course. Its not easy and it might eat your tires but it works for pure cornering speed in certain situations.

I'm going to agree with you here, this is what I tried to post yesterday.

Since 2010, one of my friends has been hosting a room in which the final race is always on High Speed Ring, both forward and reverse, all aids enabled. It's the shakedown, have fun, anybody can win it final race. The last corner shows the difference between a wheel and controller the most.

With the controller you often have to back off to avoid understeering into the outside barrier, the wheel users meanwhile can stay flat out, they do this by overturning the front wheels a little. Their front outside tire will smoke, but the wheel users can keep pushing and the car will not wash out as early as the controller user's car, thanks to the help of the high cambered turn. No matter how much I get the corner "right" on the DS3, if one of the wheel users in the room also gets it "right", they will pull away during the corner because they can hold the line at a faster speed. It's not possible to replicate with the controller because at that speed, it will not let you turn the front wheel quite enough.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Two photos. Both turning with DS3 at maximum steering input. One car stationary, one car in motion. One car with maximum steering lock. One car with less than maximum steering angle (and Id wager a guess that it is less than optimum steering angle seeing as the car neither corrects the skid or stays on the track).

Impossible to draw a definite conclusion from those pictures because they are taken from different angles.

 

[ederss7]

the wheel lock is different. a good example : the very long right hander turn at Le Mans( "Porsche curves"), with the DS3 you can go full lock to the right and still you can barely touch the grass; with the WHEEL you have to balance the steering angle, if not, you will be off the track and will touch the grass.

 

[schmocke]

My Theory is that both, DS3 and Wheel inputs lead to same steering lock at some point. Severeal comments above support my point of view.
For sure, PD has implemented some kind of "controller input smoothing" for DS3 (and wheels as well, as you can see in certain wheel only input options), which leads to very different effects on track.
Personally, I use a DFGT and will never go back to DS3 but let me point out (from my experience) how to get "closer" to wheel like smoothness while driving with a DS3 with all driving aids except abs 1 off:

1. Get rid of using x and square buttons for throttle and brake. Use the right analouge stick or R2/L2 triggers instead. For me, it was always the right stick, 'cause I like shifting with R1/L1 buttons. Downside of that method is that you cannot use throttle and brake at the same time, unless you have secondary buttons mapped.

2. Get used to manual transmission, key skill for smooth braking, stable handling and faster laps.

3. Lower the controller sensitivity. Everything above 2 causes far too quick inputs while trying to steer smoothly. 0 was my choice back in the day.
Once you get used to it, try to use the left stick very patiently when going in and especially out of corners, perfectly in a way that it "snaps" (but doesn't snap, instead in a controlled motion) back to zero while leaving the corner.
It's hard to describe, it should feel similar to lose the wheel at some point, which snaps back by itself.
In fact, with a wheel you just let it go smoothly to straight again while with DS3 you have to steer very slowly to the opposite of a corner while leaving it.

I hope it was getting clear what I was trying to say as English isn't my first language.

 

[FussyFez]

This is a bit weird.
All I know is that sometimes I slide RWD cars through corners to take them faster, using throttle control of course. Its not easy and it might eat your tires but it works for pure cornering speed in certain situations.

thanks, i guess this is a proof.

Proof of what exactly?

That GT decides how much steering angle to give at any one time(at full stick) , like I explained?

Two photos. Both turning with DS3 at maximum steering input. One car stationary, one car in motion. One car with maximum steering lock. One car with less than maximum steering angle (and Id wager a guess that it is less than optimum steering angle seeing as the car neither corrects the skid or stays on the track).

Was the throttle just pinned down in a hope that the countering would save you?


I'd wager that a split second later, the car will have gained more angle, and the steering will be at a further angle.


Any car can get into a situation where the rotation is too fast, and the momentum of the slide too high, that even hitting full opposite lock immediately won't save you.


You can get round some corners in some cars, faster sideways, but you must straighten up and be able to cleanly get the power down on exit, or your speed into the next braking zone will be well under what it would have been if you got round the last corner nicely.


I'm done here tbh.

I believe whole heartedly, that anyone claiming that wheel users are faster because of the ability to get to full lock at any time, is seriously disillusioned.


If you want to believe that it's slowing you down, please, don't let me stop you.



Edit

I've never been faster by going full lock round corners. Smoothness is the key, it always has been, keeping the car settled.

I'm going to agree with you here, this is what I tried to post yesterday.

Since 2010, one of my friends has been hosting a room in which the final race is always on High Speed Ring, both forward and reverse, all aids enabled. It's the shakedown, have fun, anybody can win it final race. The last corner shows the difference between a wheel and controller the most.

With the controller you often have to back off to avoid understeering into the outside barrier, the wheel users meanwhile can stay flat out, they do this by overturning the front wheels a little. Their front outside tire will smoke, but the wheel users can keep pushing and the car will not wash out as early as the controller user's car, thanks to the help of the high cambered turn. No matter how much I get the corner "right" on the DS3, if one of the wheel users in the room also gets it "right", they will pull away during the corner because they can hold the line at a faster speed. It's not possible to replicate with the controller because at that speed, it will not let you turn the front wheel quite enough.

Whilst I am not disputing your experience, turning past the optimal slip angle means your turning radius is larger than it could be.
Good LSD and suspension settings makes it possible to control the turning angle with tiny throttle adjustments.

It's been long taught in real motor racing that constant bends (even multi apex bends) , like the last one at high speed ring, are best taken with a constant steering angle, using the throttle to adjust the attitude of the car.





Turning too much can feel faster because you haven't had to lift off the throttle, but trust me, if your in this situation, you have entered the corner too hot, and have compromised your main goal, highest possible corner exit speed.



Edit 2


Regularly, whilst pushing too hard, I'll exit a bend, and whilst winding off the steering, the front end well bite and tuck, proving that i had turned the front wheels past their optimal slip angle.



If none of what I have said is true, understeer would not exist.

 

[ezfaun]

When I was still active in the Forza forums, we had a discussion about wheel users vs pad users. We discussed the pros and cons of each input method and deduced that the wheel was faster overall.

The pad had only one pro. It was quicker and easier to clutch shift and counter steer. Its cons include limited steering lock and overall twitchyness. (Simulation mode lets you go full lock but it is absolutely retarded on the pad.)

The wheel had three profound pros which includes smoother input, unrestricted steering lock and better feedback. With the only con being more reaction time going to and fro opposite lock.

In certain corners we have seen that wheel users have more control than pad users. And on some corners, wheel users can go through the corner with more steering angle than pad users, often creating a huge plume of smoke from the front tires. Hence the term "plowing" was coined for this so called technique.

I do not know if this technique can be applied in the same way in GT but I have seen some similar form of driving in online lobbies. I was in a tuning restricted lobby on R246. I was in 1st for 2 laps and was overtaken on the third. I followed this guy into the long bend coming from the straight and he absolutely smashed me there. From behind, his car was squatting into the corner. Which is unusual as I had to force my car to dive to achieve the same rotation.

 

[FussyFez]

When I was still active in the Forza forums, we had a discussion about wheel users vs pad users. We discussed the pros and cons of each input method and deduced that the wheel was faster overall.

The pad had only one pro. It was quicker and easier to clutch shift and counter steer. Its cons include limited steering lock and overall twitchyness. (Simulation mode lets you go full lock but it is absolutely retarded on the pad.)

The wheel had three profound pros which includes smoother input, unrestricted steering lock and better feedback. With the only con being more reaction time going to and fro opposite lock.

In certain corners we have seen that wheel users have more control than pad users. And on some corners, wheel users can go through the corner with more steering angle than pad users, often creating a huge plume of smoke from the front tires. Hence the term "plowing" was coined for this so called technique.

I do not know if this technique can be applied in the same way in GT but I have seen some similar form of driving in online lobbies. I was in a tuning restricted lobby on R246. I was in 1st for 2 laps and was overtaken on the third. I followed this guy into the long bend coming from the straight and he absolutely smashed me there. From behind, his car was squatting into the corner. Which is unusual as I had to force my car to dive to achieve the same rotation.

This 'ploughing' is exactly what I'm trying to explain above.


It's not the fastest way around that corner.

It might feel fast, but your exit speed is severely compromised compared to an entry that didn't result in this 'ploughing'.

 

[grog]

thanks, i guess this is a proof.

Proof of what?

All these photos show is that while driving and at full lock steering inputs are dialed back on the DS3.

 

[NixxxoN]

Proof of what?

All these photos show is that while driving and at full lock steering inputs are dialed back on the DS3.

Thats exactly what I meant.

 

[FussyFez]

Thats exactly what I meant.

Do you think going around a high speed corner, at full lock on a wheel, would be faster than 'full stick' on the ds3?

 

[NixxxoN]

Do you think going around a high speed corner, at full lock on a wheel, would be faster than 'full stick' on the ds3?

depending on the car, yes.

 

[FussyFez]

depending on the car, yes.

The only time I could imagine a car going round a turn faster, with too much steering angle, is with SRF on.

Can I just clarify what aids you generally use?

All of my previous comments have been regarding all assists off, using the game as close to simulation as possible.

If the wheel users you have witnessed doing this sort of thing are actually gaining a genuine time advantage from this, in my opinion, they must be using SRF.



Did you look into slip angle? It really is a very basic principle in regards to vehicle dynamics, and if PD have got it wrong, then this physics engine is beyond broken.

 

[NixxxoN]

The only time I could imagine a car going round a turn faster, with too much steering angle, is with SRF on.

Can I just clarify what aids you generally use?

All of my previous comments have been regarding all assists off, using the game as close to simulation as possible.

If the wheel users you have witnessed doing this sort of thing are actually gaining a genuine time advantage from this, in my opinion, they must be using SRF.



Did you look into slip angle? It really is a very basic principle in regards to vehicle dynamics, and if PD have got it wrong, then this physics engine is beyond broken.

well, yes, certainly you must not see the game physics as an absolute spot on to real life. Im always talking about the game.

 

[FussyFez]

well, yes, certainly you must not see the game physics as an absolute spot on to real life. Im always talking about the game.

So am I.


And if PD haven't modeled this very basic feature into the physics, then it's a huge mistake.

All of what I have written has been from in game experience.

If you are using SRF, I can see overturning the wheel slightly giving a better turning radius, but not with SRF off.

Being at full lock is not necessary on any of the tracks on GT, whilst racing.

Even turn 1 and 2 at eiger only need a maximum of 180° of steering on a 900° wheel. Same with the Monaco hairpins. More steering angle is not going to make you faster in either hairpins or high speed corners.

Throttle control and left foot braking go a long way in regards to controlling the attitude of the car mid corner.

Your impression that wheel users being able to get to full lock at any time is what makes them faster is wrong im afraid.


When you get the time, watch that 'going faster with skip barber' video I posted above. It's 90 minutes, but you will learn alot.

 

[NixxxoN]

So am I.


And if PD haven't modeled this very basic feature into the physics, then it's a huge mistake.

All of what I have written has been from in game experience.

If you are using SRF, I can see overturning the wheel slightly giving a better turning radius, but not with SRF off.

Being at full lock is not necessary on any of the tracks on GT, whilst racing.

Even turn 1 and 2 at eiger only need a maximum of 180° of steering on a 900° wheel. Same with the Monaco hairpins. More steering angle is not going to make you faster in either hairpins or high speed corners.

Throttle control and left foot braking go a long way in regards to controlling the attitude of the car mid corner.

Your impression that wheel users being able to get to full lock at any time is what makes them faster is wrong im afraid.


When you get the time, watch that 'going faster with skip barber' video I posted above. It's 90 minutes, but you will learn alot.

I always use sesitivity at max (7) and I play both with and without SRF, and I see no difference.

If you have both DS3 and wheel you can try for example using the stock Keihin HSV with both devices and try to set a fast lap at Willow Springs big Willow that has high speed long corners, its an idea track to do this test.

 

[FussyFez]

I always use sesitivity at max (7) and I play both with and without SRF, and I see no difference.

If you have both DS3 and wheel you can try for example using the stock Keihin HSV with both devices and try to set a fast lap at Willow Springs big Willow that has high speed long corners, its an idea track to do this test.

I would, but I see no reason to.

In fact I will.. But my ds3 time is likely to be bad, due to the fact I haven't used it for driving in years.

I'll do my best to make a reasonable comparison, and I'll provide data logger evidence.

Might not be with that car though.

I suppose concentrating on the long closing radius bends should show good results.

 

[mlbguy4life]

i am just as fast on a ds3 as i am on my g27. the wheel is alot smoother and i am able to manage my tire wear better and i can brake later. i would never use a controller again to race if i didnt have to. imagine driving a real car with a ds3.... yeah, i didnt think so. but push come to shove, i can still perform on a controller

 

[NixxxoN]

I would, but I see no reason to.

In fact I will.. But my ds3 time is likely to be bad, due to the fact I haven't used it for driving in years.

I'll do my best to make a reasonable comparison, and I'll provide data logger evidence.

Might not be with that car though.

I suppose concentrating on the long closing radius bends should show good results.

You can also try at Tokyo R246, it might be even better, since the long right turn 3 is a great long high speed corner example.

i am just as fast on a ds3 as i am on my g27. the wheel is alot smoother and i am able to manage my tire wear better and i can brake later. i would never use a controller again to race if i didnt have to. imagine driving a real car with a ds3.... yeah, i didnt think so. but push come to shove, i can still perform on a controller

Yes, I never said the differences were high.