Serious Testers Wanted: Driving View Physics Changes and Differences?

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amar212

amar212

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Me and few of my mates are having interesting discussion regarding physics in GT5:P and its correspondence with different driving views for some time now.

However, "out-of-the-car" and "roof-cam" are not in our focus, we are focused solely on bumper and cockpit cam.

Some of us are driving cockpit, while some are using bumper - from various reasons which are no important in this discussion.

I'd like to make a call to anyone interested in extensive testing of possible differences between bumper and cockpit camera physics to write down their results and impressions.

At this point main dispute comes from impression by some of us that bumper cam is more forgiving than cockpit cam in some ways - in other words, that physics are 100% non-restrained only in cockpit camera.

Although differences between visual perception probably have some minor influence on actual driving, it is not the focus and should not be taken into concern. Only thing important is physics - both tyres/grip related, acceleration/braking related and weightshift/lateral movement related.

Since we can't settle our dispute with precise answer, I thought to bring our discussion on a higher level of GTP authority. Thisby I call all serious drivers who are driving with the wheels to possibly waste some of their precious time and participate in this pretty interesting research.

Of course, all physics-aficionados from this community are highest welcomed with their observations.

Thanks to all in advance.
 
I can do what I can.. 👍 ..it's a question that sometimes has come to my mind. Will be very interesting. When I have tried the cockpit cam I've noticed that the 'feel' might be somewhat different. I've always put this down to the visual differences etc., but now that I hear the discussion starting will be very keen to test it properly.
(btw, I've driven mostly on bumber cam so far)
 
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I am willing to test this out, I have always been a cockpit cam driver. I never even imagined that the physics may be different and I don't believe it but am willing to help find out.
 
I also have the impression that cockpit view is more unforgiven than bumper.

My theory is the following:

Cockpitview has to draw way more polygons than bumper view, causing a lower framerate in some situations, hence causing less controll over your car.
 
Very interesting discussion... I have honestly kept using the bumper cam simply because Im faster with the bumper then in the cockpit view. I'm sure if I practiced in cockpit view I would be able to become just as fast, but I also noticed braking points and such also change when you switch views. Preference for me comes down to the bumper cam, cockpit cam is good for the realism, but Im just not fast in that view. I would love to know if this is because of the physics are different in the corresponding views... How detailed does the research have to be and what points exactly would you want tested?

-edit: Nevermind I see what points need to be tested now after a re-read... now how detailed do you want the info to be? Very in-depth? Or can it be a bit casual?
 
Ok, that's a really intresting idea, but i'm pretty convinced that our brain interpret the pictures differently (well because different views) and therefore we think the physics change. Would it really make sense to drive one and the same car with 5 or so different physic-models? I don't know...but i'll test it though....oh and amar212 thank you for all your effort bringing us at least cryptic information about GT5!
 
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This is certainly interesting. Ever since I downloaded the Prologue demo I have never used a view other than the cocpit view. Now whether there is a difference in the physics or just visual perception is up to debate. Nonetheless it will be interesting to note how the handling, physics and general feel of the car will differ when using the bumper cam.
 
Proud_God
I also have the impression that cockpit view is more unforgiven than bumper.

My theory is the following:

Cockpitview has to draw way more polygons than bumper view, causing a lower framerate in some situations, hence causing less controll over your car.
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No.

The cockpit view may feel different, because the reaction to steering is a bit later, than you'd feel using the bumper cam. Why ? 'Cause the cockpit cam is situated a bit more to the middle of the car, and you just can't visually see what's happening with the front of the car.
It's a bit like with go-carts and cars. The feel of the speed is much greater when you're bottom is 1 inch off the asphalt compared to when you're seated in the comfy chair of your bmw while traveling at the same speed.
 
Hey count me in. I'll soon have a new wheel, so I'll be happy to join the test. But I did play with the wheel before it started to act up a bit..
I have up to date Spec III version

So so far from my previews experiences
So whenever I play with a wheel, I use either the Cockpit view or the bumper cam view. Seems I use Bumper cam view 60% of the time racing. I really can't tell any difference while changing between the two, with both I can get accurate for inside and out of the corner. But I never took under consideration if driving view changed the physics.


I'll start doing some hardcore tests on both cams with Braking, cornering at same speeds, accelerations, using E-brakes, hitting walls for penalties, etc etc, whatever comes to mind. I'll use few different kind of cars just to be sure.
 
I think its mainly down to being positioned in the middle of the car, at the drivers seat that physics feel more natural, balanced as it were.

Driving with bumper cam has the pendulum effect that I have to adapt to but has benefits of executing sharp corners better for just having a bigger field of view.

The London track on the 3rd right hander (after the fast chicane from turn 1) is a testing part where you drop down, brake a lot and have to hit the apex nicely to get the best time. In cockpit cam I do this much better. It feels easier to get the apex and more natural to feel the balance. With Bumper cam I tend to turn in a bit too early and adjust mid corner until getting it right.

lopp.jpg


Trouble is that I think it was the DB9 and the cockpit view was very limiting for the sharp 90 degree corners as I couldn't take them very close or see them. With bumper cam I have more visibility so I can get closer in a shorter time on the track. In real life its no problem to see them.

What I want is more track visibility like in real life in the cockpit view. Peripheral vision is a problem but in real life all I see is the road and the front end of the car. I only see instruments if I look down.

People say why would you want to ruin the graphics of the cockpit view by adjusting it but all I want is the natural central position to ride the car movement with a clear view in all tracks and cars.

Will be interesting to see what you guys find and maybe there is some physics changes to aid you.
 
I've been driving with cockpit camera for the first half year when prologue came out and the second part of the year I've been using bumper cam view.
I can say that I'm way faster with bumper cam, probably due to the fact that I'm a better driver now then I was in the start of the game.
In my opinion bumper cam is faster simply becouse you can see more of the track and everything going on around you.I remember driving Mines BNR34 in Fuji with cockpit camera, I coudnt see the exit of the last corner and sometimes I didnt even know if somebody is beside me in a online race.
So thats why I decided for bumper cam, it might be the most boring cam in the game but it will always be the fastest. Never thought there could be something with the physics,but still Amar could be on to something,loking forward to see the test results.
 
I have been using incar view since Prologue came out(Japan) and to me it has allways felt that the car is more stable when axcellarating out off a corner by using bumper cam.Aswell when braking in,so deffenetly easier to handle with bumper cam.When looking for that 'sim' game,it has to be with incar view,clutch,ABS 0.
 
The difficult point will be designing a testing protocol. Anything with steering involved will be very hard to make reproducible. Someone once claimed that tuning in GT did nothing and it was all placebo (not sure if it was here or on the playstation site). I was able to do some acceleration tests to show that in fact that it did make a difference but that was all straight line stuff. If you are relying on visual cues then you really need to know the viewing angles and locations of the camera with respect to the car. There is speculation at the playstation forums that the camera in bumper cam view is at the height of the drivers eyes and located level with the driver and not actually at the bumper.
 
I have recently been locked into the bumper view for about 5 months now. But when is started out i always used the cocpit view. The one difference that i can see from both views is that in the bumper view i find that i have more control when approaching an apex and its over all visually better. Bit in the Cockpit view there is more realism (if you have ever driven in real life) but when looking out of the rear to see who is behind you, some vehicles you cant really see who is there, and i like to know who is behind incase i need to defend my position or going into a corner and the worst happening when you see someone coming at full speed while youre braking, because then the rear view mirror is in the centre of the screen and is easier to see.

The Cockpit view is ok but if you do start driving in that view it will just take some time to get used to. I might start again tonight and see how i feel.
 
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I will give it a go when I get home. I really think it is just your point of view and the advantages and disadvantages of each that affect the way the car drives (how you drive the car). I will take the 111r tuned out on Eiger and see if I can find anything.
 
I have some anecdotal feedback on this subject.

I've driven bumpercam since getting a wheel and GT4. I've only dabbled in cockpit view on prologue, but I did find one circumstance in which it was quite useful.

While running time trials at Daytona Road, the bus stop can mean the difference between a hotlap and a ruined lap. Skirting the edge while staying inbounds is an inexact science, particularly with bumpercam and no exact or specific reference to where your car is.

On the WRS with the Audi TT (I believe it was week 6), I found it useful to change between bumper cam and cockpit cam. Cockpit cam allowed me to accurately execute the bus stop more often. At the same time, bumpercam is the view I'm used to, and I do think the others who have mentioned being able to see more are correct. The more visual input you have into getting a corner right, the more consistently you will execute it.

My anecdotal feedback is that I was able to run about the same laptimes at DR in that particular time trial using cockpit cam as I was with bumper cam.

I found no discernable differences in physics, cornering speed was the same in both instances, and it was the type of combo that had me watching the speedo like a hawk to maintain momentum and hit the right shift points.

I don't have time for extensive testing, but I hope this helps you in your research, Amar. 👍
 
This is possible though I think doubtful.

Possible because I have noticed oddities in GT5P's physics, the "on rails" bug for example.

Doubtful because I think the perceived differences in physics are mental because of the different view points, bumper cam always being in the center of the car, cockpit view being to the left or right, etc etc
 
there is also (if you ask me) a different between the physic if you are racing with ABS or without. i don´t mean if you are breaking, off course, no the car physic change also complete.
 
I run same lap times, car feels the same. Only difference to me is peripheral vision, cockpit is alot better in this area. I use bumper for freerun and tt but cockpit for Racing. No Difference after I get use to the view change. I use bumper cam just because I can see the track better thus learn the track better.
 
nevertell
The cockpit view may feel different, because the reaction to steering is a bit later, than you'd feel using the bumper cam. Why ? 'Cause the cockpit cam is situated a bit more to the middle of the car, and you just can't visually see what's happening with the front of the car.
It's a bit like with go-carts and cars. The feel of the speed is much greater when you're bottom is 1 inch off the asphalt compared to when you're seated in the comfy chair of your bmw while traveling at the same speed.
Click to expand...

Just to pipe in about this (I realise we aren't meant to be considering the "differences in view" as a factor, but imo it is):
I agree with this and I'd take it further, saying that I find it different because I can't see the actual piece of track I am on as effectively in the cockpit, in the bumper view, you can see the track right next to where your wheels are effectively, whereas the cockpit view only gives you a perception of the track slightly ahead of the bumper, at times you can't see the inside rumble strips, etc as easily thus making it seem more difficult. Also, with the bumper cam, you can better see the bumps, and changes in camber on the track and therefore react far earlier.

Perhaps also the motion of the on-screen steering wheel among other things distracts that small amount of your concentration enough to make a difference to your driving.

I think it would be difficult almost impossible to realisticlly say if there is a difference in physics without being able to use the cockpit camera and being able to "switch off" the cockpit, or make the car ghosted in order to get rid of this view-perception factor.
Otherwise, its hard to say it isnt just your perception being affected (or as I said potentially distracted) and I'm interested to see if anyone can come up with a decent fair test for it.
 
I don't think I'm a consistent enough driver to do any useful testing, but this is a great idea. I hate that I'm so used to the bumper cam that I'm significantly slower with the cockpit view, cockpit driving is more entertaining and the realism is off the map. I just never seem to find the time to practice from the cockpit. I hit the rev limiter constantly without the big dials for the speedo and tach right there.
 
This is really interesting because for some reason, I don't get the same sense of speed with the cockpit cam. It's nice because of the great rendering, but I usually brake too much entering turns. I originally used the chase cam to get used to the tracks, and then moved to bumper. It's a nice way to drive because you can see the pavement hurtling beneath you. I personally prefer bumper, especially seeing as that I drive with a sixaxis.
 
I tried to run the 'bumper cam' last night instead of my usual interior view. The (exaggerated?) pitch, especially under braking, is worse than disconcerting for me. Cannot use it :/
 
I achieved my personal best online ranking using the bumper cam, rather than the interior view which I usually use. Though I don't think my time was improved due to any difference in the physics but because the vision out of the Viper SRT/10 from the interior view was pretty poor.

I may just test this theory though. 👍
 
superwally
I don't think I'm a consistent enough driver to do any useful testing, but this is a great idea. I hate that I'm so used to the bumper cam that I'm significantly slower with the cockpit view, cockpit driving is more entertaining and the realism is off the map. I just never seem to find the time to practice from the cockpit. I hit the rev limiter constantly without the big dials for the speedo and tach right there.
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Exactly the same as me. I only use bumper cam because i'm faster with it, but i'm probably faster with it because I never practice using the cockpit view. My story is exactly the same as yours:tup: Nearly.

I'd like to do some testing but I just don't have the time with me entered in ROC, EYS, 24 hour event, Teammates championship and WRS. To fit all of that in and still be competitive is very tough.
 
Just to throw my hat into the ring, I race mainly bumper cam, but there are certain cars I use cockpit. A couple off top of my head are off top of my head are the f40, Mines GTR, and the R34. These three seem to me to give the most accurate view, and seem very easy for perspective. There are other cars that I have tried that just make me feel cramped and seem to lack in perspective thus making driving very difficult and unreal. I think slight adjustments to the cockpit views of some cars will deffinately add to the feel of driving.

I also find that racing at London is best done in cockpit view as hitting the apex of corners seems to be easier with the cockpiut view. I have no idea why this would be as you would asume that you could hit them easier from the bumper cam as the field of view is greater. Maybe it is because in cockpit you are sat to one side of the car, or maybe it is because with bumper there is no visual reference as to the size or positioning of your car, as sometimes you maybe wider that need be.

Grim.

👍

One futher note, I ran my fastest TT time at London with cockpit view in the Mines GTR, and have only bettered that time with the f1 car. I have tried to beat the with bumper cam in the Mines and consistanly run 1 second slower. I have tried all cars and can't get close enough to beat it.
 
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I believe the difference is all in the head. Suppose you were driving in a car sitting with your face a foot off the ground. The feel of the car would indeed be completely different, and your braking points, apexes, laps, and overall perception of a track would not even be similar to the cockpit feel.
 
Theres no physics difference in the different views, but your reactions differ.
In the bumper cam, you get a more floaty and direct feeling for whats going on with the suspension, breaks, the whole feeling for the weight is better but you lack peripheral vision. In the cockpit view you dont really feel all of that, but you get a better speedfeeling because of the shadowing, its more intense because you dont see so much and you have more details in front of you. Some problems are that you orientate yourself on the, not so correct steering wheel and you cant really see where the car ends. The roof cam is something like a mix, i personally find it extremely easy to countersteer in this view but it doesnt feel very direct, the racing itself is difficult for me in this view.

I use the cockpit because its the most fun to me, but i am faster in bumper cam or roof cam, the physics are the same but the things you are doing with what you see make the difference. Its like that in every racing game.
 
I would say the question of physics difference has been achieved.
 
G.T.Ace
Theres no physics difference in the different views, but your reactions differ.
In the bumper cam, you get a more floaty and direct feeling for whats going on with the suspension, breaks, the whole feeling for the weight is better but you lack peripheral vision. In the cockpit view you dont really feel all of that, but you get a better speedfeeling because of the shadowing, its more intense because you dont see so much and you have more details in front of you. Some problems are that you orientate yourself on the, not so correct steering wheel and you cant really see where the car ends. The roof cam is something like a mix, i personally find it extremely easy to countersteer in this view but it doesnt feel very direct, the racing itself is difficult for me in this view.

I use the cockpit because its the most fun to me, but i am faster in bumper cam or roof cam, the physics are the same but the things you are doing with what you see make the difference. Its like that in every racing game.
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I think its the opposite for me with bumper i cant figure out what the car is doing i have no connection. With the interior view i can feel and see everything the car is doing. I will agree with you on the fact the physics are the same, but the way player drive in the 2 views are different.
 
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