Setup Vs. Setup: Elise GT1

Discussion in 'GT2 Settings & Tunings' started by MinusB, Jan 17, 2006.

  1. MinusB

    MinusB

    Messages:
    19
    As per Sucahyo's request, I will start a setup vs. setup thread for the Lotus Elise GT1, and test it on the Redrock Valley track. I look forward to this being an invaluable tool to help me learn more about tuning; I already have my own style of driving and setup, but reading the methods and outcomes from other drivers will certainly help me grow too.

    Although I've not yet participated in any sort of setup vs. setup threads, I'd like to suggest we follow a common format (the bold headings below). I feel doing so will allow us all to see the process by which each driver tunes his car, and his reasons for doing so. This will help us all learn more in the end.

    Car: Lotus Elise GT1

    Handling:
    Pros: The Lotus Elise GT1 is a mid-engined, RWD car with a lot of horsepower. It posesses quick handling and a high top speed; it can be set up to turn tightly, even when traveling at high speed.

    Cons: The car has a very high rear end weight bias, which causes extreme and catastrophic spins when used on tracks with long, high speed corners (ala Redrock Valley, High Speed Ring, etc). As well, the abrupt power delivery exaggerates this downfall.

    Problem Areas: The suspension, as delivered, is set for a front-heavy bias, possibly to overcome the car's rear weight. There is also no adjustability to the stabilizers (anti-sway bars) nor the downforce (unless the racing modification is purchased).


    Suggested Remedies: Lower the car to minimize/eliminate excessive weight transfer to outside wheels - reduce tendency to "throw" weight out and cause spin. Adjust rear wheels to counteract centrifugal force pulling the rear out of line.

    Tuning Chart:
    Spring Rate: 11.8 12.8
    Ride Height: 65 85
    Damper Bound: 5 5
    Damper Rebound: 5 5
    Camber: 2.0 1.4
    Toe: 0.00 0.15
    Stabilizer: 1 1
    Brake Balance: N/A
    Auto Gear: 16
    Downforce: .52 (.57) .85 (.99)
    LSD Initial: 9
    LSD Accelerate: 36
    LSD Decelerate: 24

    Best Lap Time: 1:06.883


    Overall Impression:
    Initially driving the car, my style of sticking straight to the course and following my lines were immediately overcome. It was impossible to hold the car on a steady line unless I drifted the car or radically slowed down. My best times were not much worth mentioning... somewhere in the Minute Oh Nines. As well, the rear end swung around way too often; I liked that the car would steer tightly even on very high speed corners rather than understeering, but I hated its tendency to spin out. Adjustments were a compromise of tight steering or looseness... this car is just loose. I also found that when I began to controll the rear end looseness, it became very grabby. In other words, it would still try to spin out, but grab and throw the car wildly. The setup I posted is still very controllable and keeps wild, extreme slides and grabs to a minimum, but it must be noted that getting an extreme one way or another (tightness or looseness) usually resulted in undesirable handling. Purchasing the racing body for its extra downforce is helpful, but not enough to improve lap times; strangely, my best time with the car was without the racing mod!

    I cannot drive this car in my style well. The car, to me, is improperly balanced and not exceptionally wonderful at anything. If I wanted a balanced MR car, I'd pick the NSX over this one any day. If I wanted something exotic, this car will compete with the NSX with way more cool points, and is worth it for that alone. I'm not very competitive in this car... that is, against myself in time trial mode, even though, at its worst, this car is superiorly faster by many seconds on every track than the computer's AI cars.

    Final Statement: A good car overall, needs minor tuning tweaks to agree with personal driving habits. Has an overwhelming characteristic that I don't prefer, and is difficult to tune out without creating worse problems. If it were in my garage, I'd probably forget it was in there.

    A note to Sucahyo and anyone else who read my thread with the GT2 "formula": I didn't bother to apply the formula to this car, however, I did keep track of my changes:
    The suspension could be lowered a decent amount, and with favorable results. I went down 20% front and rear, but left the springs completely alone. The downforce I changed 15% higher in the rear, and only 5% up front, as I felt the front end overpowered the car in turning. Aside from that, my adherence to the formula was slim, and mostly a result of "seat of the pants" testing!
    Hope this helps, and I hope you like it! :tup:
     
  2. sucahyo

    sucahyo

    Messages:
    2,171
    Ok.

    Car: Lotus Elise GT1

    Handling:
    Pros:Small and fast. Wide body and huge wing make it more planted to the road than other elise. Its lower body height make it more stable in corner. The handling is quick.
    Cons:Typical MR car tendency to spin. And because of its light body, it react more to the road bump, make it more difficult to drive.

    Problem Areas:Spin and jump.


    Suggested Remedies:Lower spring rate and make it understeer.


    Tuning Chart:
    Spring Rate: 8.0 8.0
    Ride Height: 115 115
    Damper Bound: 2 10
    Damper Rebound: 2 10
    Camber: 0.0 0.0
    Toe: 0.00 0.00
    Stabilizer: 1 1
    Brake Balance: N/A
    Auto Gear: 16
    Downforce: .52 (.57) .85 (.99)
    LSD Initial: 1
    LSD Accelerate: 1
    LSD Decelerate: 1

    Best Lap Time: 1:06.400
    (using auto and normal tire)


    Overall Impression:
    I first drive this car using its default suspension. My first feeling is, it's WILD!. The car would slowly start spinning in the middle of the first corner, with some few jump to make it worse. I can only drive it with very carefull steering, and without analog, its very hard. I can expect some spin in every lap. Although with load and save I can make 1.07 time.
    Initially I want to use 20/20 spring rate, but as I said I want to tune this car for best handling, I start with 2/2 spring rate. For ride height I use 115/115 because I want to feel how the car feel really like without have to bother to check any tire skip from car bottoming. For initial test I use 10/10 10/10 damper as start. Using 2/2 feels too soft for me, the car feels not gripping. Upping to 6/6 help a little, but after trying 8/8 I feel it's the right spring rate for me. The car feels more stable in bumpy corner. I feel no jump or jiggle.
    After found the correct spring rate, I continue with the effort to create more understeer for this car. I usually use spring rate to do that, but after playing around with extreme value, I still can't make the car understeer. Next I try my newly discovered damper real life trick (thanks sukerkin !). Stiffening front will increase understeer. So I try that. 1/10 1/10 damper. This is really surprise me, the elise feel Veery stable! become little piggy. The car become steady understeer. But since I prefer little oversteer I increase the damper a little to 2/10 2/10. This give best handling for me. Even when making some mistakes, I can reach 1.06 easily.
    Even when not braking in the first corner, you should have no big problem.
    [​IMG]
    I am satisfied with this tuning, this make very elise easy to handle, even on first corner.

    Final Statement:With correct tuning this car should capable reaching faster time, but I don't bother, as long as the car is easy to handle, I can use it to win many race.
     
    SiriusR likes this.
  3. MinusB

    MinusB

    Messages:
    19
    Sucahyo! Thanks for the reply!! I'll try out your settings when I get back from double 24hour shifts at work :crazy: ... loads of fun, lemme tell ya.
     
  4. Parnelli Bone

    Parnelli Bone Premium

    Messages:
    10,429
    Location:
    United States
    You know, in March i'll officially be a Gt2 player for 2 solid years...and this is the first time i've jumped into the Lotus Elise GT1!

    what a shocker. Firstly, the throttle is VERY touchy. It goes from no boost to way-too-much in what seems to be half a millimeter on the analog stick! So getting it to just accelerate without overreving is a skill in itself.

    I tried the Elise with its pre-set setting (all dampers on 7....camber at 2.0 and 1.0, etc) and found it to be EXTREMELY grippy up front, which helps makes the rear want to swing around like Minus B said. My first priority was to get the opposite effect: create understeer and tame the back-end. i chose not to buy the race-kit...that would be too easy!

    First: the springs. I cut them roughly in half and changed the ground clearance so there would be less traction up front and the rear would stay planted. This took care of much of the swinging. I could now push my steering all the way to the right or left without “Maxwell House Instant Coffee-induced Spinning” but I still had issues with the super-light Elise ‘hopping’*alot in those banked turns.

    Step 2: I learned in GT1 with the Dodge Copperhead (Concept CAr) that heavy damper settings in light cars can make them lose speed. In GT2, this doesn't happen...instead, super-light cars get extremely nervous. I ixnayed the ‘Super-7’ damper settings. Now the car was much more managable. The tires were more firmly planted and there was less hopping. But too much understeer. Ugh.

    Step 3: Time to mess with the STabilizers and dampers. Also i changed my front tires from Softs to Super Softs and put less camber up front.

    ooops..can't change the stabilizers :D

    I introduced the limited-slip now with very soft settings. Lowered first gear and made 6th a bit shorter, and made the final gear taller. other than that, i didnt' mess with the gears much.

    Springs: 5.7 kg/mm - 7.0
    Height: 100 mm / 85 mm
    B. Damps: 3/2
    R. Damps: 2/2
    Camber: 1.5°/1.1°
    Toe: 0.0

    1st: 3.150
    2nd: 2.275
    3rd: 1.625
    4th; 1.215
    5th: .955
    6th: .825
    Final: 3.880
    Auto: 21

    Lsd: 12/20/5
    Tires: All Supersofts

    Best time in 3 laps: 1:07.260. Ha ha, you win Minus B! :)

    Anyways, i got the Elise to do what i wanted...that was my main goal. It became alot tamer with my settings.
     
  5. Parnelli Bone

    Parnelli Bone Premium

    Messages:
    10,429
    Location:
    United States
    Minus B...i feel your pain as a mechanic. Today i had a Lexus GS300 come in and both rear tires were going flat. We had done work for him previously...First thing i noticed was 3 of the 4 Goodyear tires were on backwards...they're suppoed to face outward (it even says ‘this side outward...this side inward’*on the tires! Good thing the custormer never noticed!) Long story long, it took me 2 hours to fix the flat tires.

    I immediately found that both were leaking at the valve stems, so i replaced both stems and resealed the bead around the rims. Still leaking.

    By now, I had put 3 tires on correctly (correct side facing out) replaced 2 valve stems, re-balanced the 3 tires..put them all back on the car...before i put them on the 2 rear tires weren't leaking....NOW THEY WERE DAMMIT!

    the shop closed. My boss left...the other 2 mechanics were drinking scotch! Anyways, i figured out that when i removed the valve stems for a second time, that there was a bit of grit in where the stems seat...so i cleaned this out and finally got my tires not to leak. Phew...a full hour after shop closed...

    Anyways, i tried your settings out...found i had to countersteer ALOT. I could get aroudn the track and stuff, but phew! What a lot of work! I think it's cuz the rear of your Elise is jacked higher + your springs are real stiff, man. And the + rear toe probably is another deterrent. But whatever.

    Sucahyo, i never thought i'd say this but...you've improved dude, lol. Gone are the drag-racing settings....i found your car much more manageable to drive than they used to be just 3 months ago. There's little to criticize...i just found it to be a bit difficult to set up into turns...but this is due to my driving style...which is different from yours.

    My theory with suspension & brake tuning is that mostly it's done to suit our own driving style..if that's what works for you, go for it!
     
  6. sucahyo

    sucahyo

    Messages:
    2,171
    As MinusB setting is close to default, the car jump feels about the same. The car feels have some added grip. But I feel the car spin more easily than default (maybe caused by my driving style).
    I try your setting Parnelli Bone, make my setting feel like half done........ I especially like the last corner stability. But as we tune for handling, my best lap time seem to increase on better handling (all SS tire, auto 16 gear, autotrans):
    MinusB setting : 1.04.1xx, sector 1 time: 14.6xx
    My setting : 1.05.9xx, sector 1 time: 14.4xx
    Parnelli setting : 1.07.0xx, sector 1 time: 15.1xx

    MinusB setting is fast on straight, the key is carefull cornering. Its weakest in the first corner.
    My setting only fast on first corner, on other corner my setting feel understeer.
    Parnelli setting is fast on all corner, but straight speed seems lower.

    I find that the best way to drive this elise GT1 for me is by never lift the throttle even when braking, it help reducing brake spinning. Every time the car feels understeer in corner I tap the brake (without lifting the throttle).

    I can only imagine how 2x24 shift feels ..............
     
  7. Parnelli Bone

    Parnelli Bone Premium

    Messages:
    10,429
    Location:
    United States
    Whatver happened to MacRoadster and -Batman-? It's cuz of a discussion we had that we started doing these setup tests back in the summer.

    Yeah, i agree...Minus B has the fastest--probly due to the lowered front-end which prevents airflow underneath? But i think mine is the ‘safest’. It may not be as fast, but during an actual sim race it would be the easiest to control and least likely to spin...and believe me i've lost a few races here and there cuz of a spin due to tempermental tuning.
     
  8. sucahyo

    sucahyo

    Messages:
    2,171
    Yeah, more people will be fun.
    About safe, I think I like driving scary car more :D .
     
  9. Parnelli Bone

    Parnelli Bone Premium

    Messages:
    10,429
    Location:
    United States
    ...just waiting to see if MinusB wants to add any more to this thread...if not i got anotehr car & track...
     
  10. Stingray-Man

    Stingray-Man

    Messages:
    114
    Thankyou so much!

    This was the most rediculously:crazy: :scared: untunable car in my garage even after I learned about the racing mod available. My best time on my tunings was a 1:12 something. I can't wait to try some of your tunings.:)
     
  11. AngelCreator

    AngelCreator

    Messages:
    2,276
    I got a setup for that car,i will put it on in a day or two and a time
    as well.
     
  12. sucahyo

    sucahyo

    Messages:
    2,171
    And if you don't mind little scary ride :dopey: , try this too:
    Spring Rate: 17.0 20.0
    Ride Height: 55 115
    Damper Bound: 1 6
    Damper Rebound: 1 6
    Camber: 0.0 0.0
    Toe: 0.00 0.00
    Stabilizer: 1 1
    Brake Balance: N/A
    Auto Gear: 16
    LSD: 1/1/1

    Scary, but for me, it is fast :) (with little load and save cheat, I keep spinning it on the third corner :p ).
    [​IMG]
     
  13. Stingray-Man

    Stingray-Man

    Messages:
    114
    Amazing, what a good tuner could do for my racing! I used your settings MinusB and acheived a clean 1:05.757 on my 4th test lap and later 1:05:442.:cool: on the allstars race . With my own settings I could barely stay on the track:banghead: , getting at best 1:12's. I will try the other settings too, Parnelli, and Sucahyo. Clearly, this reveals that I need to learn more about how to tune suspensions. I suppose the best place to look is under the GT2 tunings and settings topic. Any other ideas on basic suspension tuning resources or strategies, send my way.
     
  14. Stingray-Man

    Stingray-Man

    Messages:
    114
    Did you have better times without the racing mod.?:boggled: I know it was easier for me to stay on the road before I modified my Elise GT, untill I used MinusB's settings.
     
  15. sucahyo

    sucahyo

    Messages:
    2,171
    with racing mod it can be faster. I get that time without weight modification.
     
  16. AngelCreator

    AngelCreator

    Messages:
    2,276
    I got those settings and a time.

    Lotus Elise GT1
    1:03:076
    Suspension
    13.5/14.0
    55/55
    2/3
    1/2
    3.0/1.0
    0.00/0.00
    1/1
    Gears
    3.618
    2.385
    1.720
    1.303
    1.036
    0.864
    3.938
    18
    Downforce
    0.78/0.99
    Limited-Slip
    10
    20
    10​

    I think i can get it to go faster,but i will have to try.
     
  17. sucahyo

    sucahyo

    Messages:
    2,171
    How fast can you go without weight modification?
     
  18. AngelCreator

    AngelCreator

    Messages:
    2,276
    I don't know?I will try it and tell you the lap time.
     
  19. sucahyo

    sucahyo

    Messages:
    2,171
    I try Elise GT1 with body mods & full downforce, it's crazy, the grip is awesome, I was braking less, counter steer less, if you ignore the bump it's like driving in railway.............
    0:58.933

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Stingray-Man

    Stingray-Man

    Messages:
    114
    Are these the settings you used to get your 58:933 lap? If not could you pass on the new settings. I want my Lotus Elise GT1 to drive like that too!:eek: :bowdown:
     
  21. AngelCreator

    AngelCreator

    Messages:
    2,276
    THAT IS FAST!!:scared: .The more i'm on the forums the more i see
    how slow i am,and that i need to get better:( .

    Here are those times.

    1:02:128 Race
    1:04:253 Road
     
  22. sucahyo

    sucahyo

    Messages:
    2,171
    Yes, but I am using 56/56/56 LSD, I use 14/20 spring rate (to make driving easier) and 1/10 1/10 damper.

    I am sure you can reach at least 2 seconds faster than me, I am just not good enough in long corner, too much countersteer. The car should be able to run at 270kmph (168mph) on the first corner, but I only able to pass it bellow 260kmph. Too much countersteer or drift.
    But sometimes, I get lucky :) , passing the first corner without braking and manage not to hit the wall, 0:55.736. All you need is tuning that is right for you, no oversteer or understeer in the important corner, so you don't need to brake at 1st, 5th & 6th corner (before and after tunnel). In this case, even with oversteer ride height, I make the car neutral (for my driving style) with spring rate and damper. I am sure anyone can reach 0:54.xxx with this car, seeing how sloppy my driving is in 2nd & 3rd corner.
    [​IMG]
     
  23. AngelCreator

    AngelCreator

    Messages:
    2,276
    I have a new time for the Race car.

    1:00:175 Race

    I know i can get faster,but i can't get a clean lap.
     
  24. sucahyo

    sucahyo

    Messages:
    2,171
    how fast you can go with my setting?
     
  25. Stingray-Man

    Stingray-Man

    Messages:
    114
    That is nice! Did you do this with the same settings you listed above?
     
  26. Stingray-Man

    Stingray-Man

    Messages:
    114
    This is an amazing time regardless!:crazy: Was it done with a save and load function or straight through? If it was save and load, then what is your best time without it?
     
  27. sucahyo

    sucahyo

    Messages:
    2,171
    Did you change your tuning? the fastest time I get (load & save) is 1:01.xxx. If you don't you sure have good driving skill.
    Your setting have slower straight acceleration (maybe caused by camber). I feel your car has less grip on corner, it understeer at corner entry and then oversteer at corner exit. For my driving style it means plenty of spin in every lap ............

    My time:
    1:03.xxx - if I spin
    1:01.xxx - if I can control the spin
    1:00.xxx - if I screw up some corner
    0:59.xxx - If I doing it save
    0:58.xxx - If I don't screw up
    0:55.xxx - perfect sector time using load & save

    My time when racing would be between 1:00.xxx and 0:58.xxx. Using my setting my spin rate is 1 in 4 lap.
    How fast can you go with my setting?
     
  28. AngelCreator

    AngelCreator

    Messages:
    2,276
    I don't know,i will try it.Which settings?

    No,but i will get the settings on soon.

    Yes i did change my settings and i didn't use the (save&load),but i know how.
    Heres a picture of my time.

    View attachment 57288
     
  29. AngelCreator

    AngelCreator

    Messages:
    2,276
    I have a new time i did tonite and new settings.

    59:701 Lotus Elise GT1 Race

    View attachment 57289

    Here are my settings.

    Suspension
    19.5/20.0
    55/55
    3/5
    2/3
    2.0/0.5
    0.00/0.00
    1/1
    Transmission
    3.200
    2.300
    1.655
    1.245
    0.990
    0.870
    3.940
    20
    Downforce
    0.78/0.99
    Limited-Slip(thanks sucahyo:) )
    56
    56
    56​
     
  30. sucahyo

    sucahyo

    Messages:
    2,171

    spring rate - 14.0/20.0
    ride height - 55/115
    damper bound - 1/10
    damper rebound - 1/10
    camber - 0.0/0.0
    toe - 0.00/0.00
    stabilizer - 1/1
    Downforce - 0.78/0.99
    LSD - 56/56/56​

    Ride height = low front and high rear can increase acceleration. If you can overcome the increased oversteer it can translate to 1 second faster lap time.