"Shokunin" Concept

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Devil240Z
It would be nice if PD would outsource some model development.
And I feel like with new cars the manufactures probably have a model in their computers thats 90% game ready.
PD should focus on primarily features,tracks, and physics.
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It is not that easy. PD cannot just simply take a manufactures model and put it in the game. The manufacturers model acts more as a guide for the modeler, than as a base. At least that is the way I understand it based on videos about PD's development process.

With GT7 it'll be interesting to see what PD does now that they have the graphical horsepower.
 
This is possibly a little off topic, but I'd like to see GT7 arrange cars a little differently in the dealerships. Instead of all the miatas and skylines and everything else listed individually, I'd like to see an arrangement where, for example, you go into the mazda dealer, choose the miata, and then you get to choose the year, variant, colour, etc from there.
 
enog
This is possibly a little off topic, but I'd like to see GT7 arrange cars a little differently in the dealerships. Instead of all the miatas and skylines and everything else listed individually, I'd like to see an arrangement where, for example, you go into the mazda dealer, choose the miata, and then you get to choose the year, variant, colour, etc from there.
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yeah 3 pages of miatas is a little tedious.
 
It's waste of effort if you ask me. The end effect isn't better than methods used by their competition.

Then again, they showed great foresight in determining the quality level of detail. It is of such height that you can only see it in photomode. That again may look as waste of effort, but every premium model, will require no effort to port to ps4 and even beyond.
 
I don't think the wording of the article is quite what you guys are making it out to be. The craftsman concept refers to the person designing the car, not the team rendering it in-game.

For instance, there is a car coming in VGT from Bertone, this car is going to be designed by one person from the company; most likely a senior designer who has a ver specific concept in mind. When the design is completed by that ONE person, bertone will then send the design to PD who will have a team work on importing the car.

Also, I don't know where someone got the number 1300 for the employee count at PD, but I can promise you that they have maybe 1/10th of that number. They made a pretty major anouncement a couple years ago when they broke 100 employees, and I seriously doubt that they rocketed from there to a staff that is 30% larger than the one that worked on GTA5.
 
Game Dev here, everybody calm down!

Now, here's the thing. Unlike making a racetrack, where it would be beneficial to have multiple people working on the track, props, textures, etc, modelling a car and doing all that work is fine as basically a one-man job.
This concept is not a bad thing - especially when you look at it logically. They've said it's one person modelling each car. It's not impossible, I've done it before myself, and the workflow is A-OK.

This can be assumed to mean:
3d modelling of the bodywork
3d modelling of the interior
3d modelling of external parts (wheels, tyres, body kits, etc)

This can be assumed to probably/possibly mean:
Reference-gathering (photos, 3d scans, manufacturer data)
Paint and Colour-matching for materials (default paint options)
Texturing for any liveries (if applicable)
Rigging the driver (placing him into the seat and hands on the wheels/gearshifts)

If you can do the exterior of a car, the same techniques can be used for the interior - there's no new technical skills. Same for wheels and other parts. Reference-gethering, apart from having to deal with manufacturers, isn't rocket science, and it cna help because you can identify which parts might cause you grief and get more shots of them. Material creation, likewise, isn't too difficult; Polyphony already has the best car paint shaders out there, so it's a case of getting reference shots of all the car's colours and fine tuning about a 15 values, made even easier if the manufacturer provides some of that info. Texturing for racecar liveries is pretty simple and fun, and relies on good UVs for the car (think of it as unwrapping the car, paint it, then wrap back on). Placing and rigging the driver should actually be fairly easy. There'd already be a driver model and animations available, so place him in there, rotate limbs to be in the right spot, set up the placement and rotation axis of the steering wheel, and set the gearshift locations- the rest should automate itself. DONE.
 
Wouldn't be easier if someone was responsible for the interior and someone else for the exterior then? Because for instance, many same-branded cars share parts, be it a steering wheel, a trim, a console. So a interior guy can have as much as a whole brand in his hand and deliver faster. Instead of two people having to do the same thing twice.
This would improve the particular feel for each car because the guy would know how (insert brand here) carpets/seats/leather/gauges are/work/feel and would ultimately decrease the ammount of preparation he needs to do another same branded car in the future.
I imagine even an improvement in the day to day work dynamic, because you can go back and forth between diferent things as the worker wishes, not stuck with a car for 6 months.
The interior specialist's "life" would be, leather, gauges, multimidia screens.instead of 10000 diferent parts per car... Exterior can have as much as 2 people, one for the chassis, other jr assit for wheels, bodykits, etc.
This way enog's suggestion could be already in place.

Basically an assembly line. The first few ones may not be perfect integrated, but as the team syncs, the (fully simulated)sky is the limit.
To me this is a factor that can bring much more consistency, because every car would be an avg of 3 peoples work. Not "ah this crappy one must be mr. Xyz work" or the opposite. It reduces the "weakest link vs peak performer" gap every company has.
A plastic surgeon probably can open a patient and do a emergency surgery, but doesnt mean it was what he wanted or does best....
 
Jose Mendonca
They didn't say each person only does one car. It's each car is made by only one person. Means one person can make 10 cars from start to finish for example.
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The answer was also adjacent to the GT-vision answer, maybe he was actually referring to the concepts rather than the modelling? One-person-one-car in 3D-modelling terms is ludicrous as much as anything else.
 
sems4arsenal
I very much doubt other racing games who have the same if not better standards for car models follow the same approach.
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Both T10 and the DriveClub team have stated it takes them 6-7 months to make each car, which is the same amount of time it takes PD. So I'd say that most likely means they use the same methods as PD in that one person does one car.
 
I think you all mis-interpreted the "shokunin" concept.

Just like @algebraic said above, that concept is meant for each VGT cars.

Not the digitizing of the cars into GT.

Be careful with what you guys talk about.
 
Conquerer
Both T10 and the DriveClub team have stated it takes them 6-7 months to make each car, which is the same amount of time it takes PD. So I'd say that most likely means they use the same methods as PD in that one person does one car.
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I'm not sure on this but if it is true, then the "shokunin" concept is hardly a PD thing now that is what most others do.
 
CTznOfTime
I think you all mis-interpreted the "shokunin" concept.

Just like @algebraic said above, that concept is meant for each VGT cars.

Not the digitizing of the cars into GT.

Be careful with what you guys talk about.
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I'm not interpreting anything; I'm just reading the news page.
"One particularly interesting thing revealed in the discussion is Polyphony Digital’s “one person, one car” policy. As the name implies, each car model in Gran Turismo is built from top-to-bottom by a single person, to promote the Japanese concept of “shokunin” – a master craftsman or artisan."
 
CTznOfTime
I think you all mis-interpreted the "shokunin" concept.

Just like @algebraic said above, that concept is meant for each VGT cars.

Not the digitizing of the cars into GT.

Be careful with what you guys talk about.
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All the car manufacturers have design studios, where they work in a team.

In the Mercedes-Benz VGT video they even talk about it: "Teamwork is essential. We all have to inspire each other."

So no, the article is probably right and what he's talking about is the actual modelling for the game. That even makes sense, as it explains why the premium models (especially interiors) are of different quality.
 
I see no issue with the concept as, mathematically, the same amount of cars are produced assuming all modelers are equally competent. Of course, not all of them will, nor will they all demonstrate the same ability to produce a model of the highest quality. However, by having supervisors and assistants, the gap between the best and worst modeler should be minimal. Working in a group or as a team would not work as well because they will not have specialized skills - like being able to perfect an interior but not an exterior. Some may be better at it than others, but it would not necessarily be substantially efficient enough to warrant the change. Where time will be lost and gained is improvements in the technology and the number of skilled modelers in their workforce. Outsourcing just leads to other issues down the line, as graphical discrepancies become more obvious as we head into the next generation.

I believe that as it stands, there is no issue with the speed that they are modeling at. By the time GT7 comes out by the end of next year (conservative guess) there should be at least 500 complete premiums. For a game that will be the first of its generation, this is huge (look at Forza 5 or GT3). What is more important is the choice of cars that are being modeled. Personally, I'd like to see cars modeled that would create a more involving career mode - karts, a Spec Racer Ford, then branching out into open wheeled and closed cockpit racing.
 
eran0004
All the car manufacturers have design studios, where they work in a team.

In the Mercedes-Benz VGT video they even talk about it: "Teamwork is essential. We all have to inspire each other."

So no, the article is probably right and what he's talking about is the actual modelling for the game. That even makes sense, as it explains why the premium models (especially interiors) are of different quality.
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That is to create something new, not copy something in detail. These are totally different skill sets.
 
Tired Tyres
Your first two paragraphs are about one thing. Creating something and what PD do is something else. Duplicating details on a car model. Two totally different skill sets.
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Yes, but what has that got to do with what I wrote? Someone claimed that VGT cars were designed by one person alone, I pointed out that design is a teamwork.
 
eran0004
Yes, but what has that got to do with what I wrote? Someone claimed that VGT cars were designed by one person alone, I pointed out that design is a teamwork.
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Okay. Sorry misunderstanding.

I though you meant a Mercedes design team working together to create a new car is the same thing as PD modeling a car.
 
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Just my 2 cents :gtpflag:
 
That whole "Shokunin" thing just sounds like a horribly outdated concept to me. Like they're a workshop full of master craftsmen creating these wonderful little treasures. I mean that's quaint and all, but good grief, we're not making Samurai swords and it's not the 15th century anymore.


That's pretty darned typical of Japanese culture though. These are the same people who don't have any insulation or central heating / air conditioning in their homes or apartments because it's not traditional to do so. So they sit under their kotatsu tables in their one heated room all winter and freeze their butts off whenever they get up to do anything.
 
JackC8
That whole "Shokunin" thing just sounds like a horribly outdated concept to me. Like they're a workshop full of master craftsmen creating these wonderful little treasures. I mean that's quaint and all, but good grief, we're not making Samurai swords and it's not the 15th century anymore.


That's pretty darned typical of Japanese culture though. These are the same people who don't have any insulation or central heating / air conditioning in their homes or apartments because it's not traditional to do so. So they sit under their kotatsu tables in their one heated room all winter and freeze their butts off whenever they get up to do anything.
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You live in Minnesota. You freeze your butt off no matter what.
 
I've always wondered why some cars in GT games seem to look better than others. This Shokunin ideology explains why. I think it's bad from a business point of view, as common sense dictates that would you utilize your workers skills in the areas that they excel in, not forcing everyone to do a particular job regardless of their talent.
 
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