Should GT6 have an official 'Clean Rules' set by PD?

[Kurzweil]

One problem in public rooms on GT5 is, there's no agreed on 'Clean' set of rules. This forces hosts to repeatedly type out for every single player that joins the 'house' rules (or assume they know, not a good idea in practice!). Add to that the communication issues with drivers from a myriad of countries (and languages), and it gets to be a major PITA for hosts.

One thing PD could do to promote 'Clean' racing is include a simple, standardized set of rules with localized translations for regional disks, that gets displayed on entry for a room that selects a 'Clean' tag on creation.

Nothing fancy... the 'Big 3' from most Leagues ought to do:

Return position if you hit the car ahead and pass
Return position if you force a car alongside off, into wall or penalty
Only one block move, no weaving.

Simply this, translated into regional languages, and displayed when you enter the room, would go a LONG way to standardizing clean racing.

More would be nice, but this would achieve it. Maybe add:

Only if hit into the car ahead or he spins, hits wall etc. (without your help) is it legal to hit him and keep the pass

But that's it.

Should it be PD's job to help hosts maintain clean rooms? Currently, they do NOTHING.

 

[The Stig Farmer]

How would they enforce them?

It'd be nice to have them but I can't see them working.

 

[CayenneGT]

How would they enforce them?

It'd be nice to have them but I can't see them working.

You can't enter a room with a clean tag unless you hit accept the rules, simple.

 

[The Stig Farmer]

You can't enter a room with a clean tag unless you hit accept the rules, simple.

But what if I just tick the "I accept" box? I'll still get into the room no matter my intentions.

The only solution I can think of is them implementing something like Codies' Impact Rating.

 

[Exorcet]

It's the room host's job to set the rules and the room host's job to enforce them.

 

[ShiftingGears]

How would they enforce them?

It'd be nice to have them but I can't see them working.

I can't see it working either. Besides, sometimes accidents happen. In rooms with good moderators incidents that are clearly accidental would be discussed after the race, like adults. I do like the idea of a ruleset given to players when they join a room, as decided by the moderator though. It would beat discovering the mods interpretation of 'clean' halfway through a race when they get angry for not being able to pass you around the outside of a corner.

What PD really need to do is to attempt to build a better framework for social interaction, such as clubs, league events, et cetera. I think that would allow communication, and self-policing much better.



As it stands GT5 online is flimsy, and very individual-oriented. I can't claim a solution to it, but the penalty system for the most part is extremely aggravating, and I would not appreciate rooms dictated by arbitrary rules enforced by algorithms.

They definitely need a framework to allow better communication though. One of the few times I join a room and instantly know exactly where I stand with regards to the rules are the dirty rooms.

It's the room host's job to set the rules and the room host's job to enforce them.

Agreed. For instance I believe in handling events such as accidental bumping resulting in a pass with post-race discussion, rather than having one driver slow down to allow re-passing.

The only solution I can think of is them implementing something like Codies' Impact Rating.

What is their impact rating? Frequency of severe impacts with other cars?

 

[Willfred_1]

I cant remember with pc game had a safety rating but it worked reasonably well the clean guys would race the clean people and dirty's would race dirtys this meant that i never had issues with contact
It would need a lot of planning for what factors affect the score

 

[The Stig Farmer]

What is their impact rating? Frequency of severe impacts with other cars?

Precisely. I think you can set it so that you can only join if you have a "safe" rating (never actually used it that much myself Only 'cause there's so few people still playing DiRT 3 and the only way to find a game is by forgoing all your preferences and joining whatever games there are available)

 

[Samus]

Whilst rules wouldn't be enforceable I do think it'd be worth it to add in recommended driving/racing practices somewhere even if it's only the manual where 26 people will read them. So many people, even those that race clean, don't seem to know the general rules of racing. I was in a clean shuffle race a few weeks ago with one guy moaning that people kept overtaking on the inside of him, that wasn't right in his book, even if they were clean.

 

[Jawehawk]

A very simple solution, and a great addition to the franchise, would be the inclusion of Flag Rules.

 

[Tenacious D]

I'm with the general consensus here, wondering how clean racing can be enforced. The player rating system shouldn't be all that hard to work with though, as it could be based mostly on "severe" impacts, however PD decides to define that, so that it down ticks rammers. You're going to be making occasional contact just because of the nature of racing, and a wreck could be handled with a smart algorithm so it doesn't count as a ram. Of course, if you're consistently in pile-ups you have a problem.

 

[HKS racer]

A very simple solution, and a great addition to the franchise, would be the inclusion of Flag Rules.

Flag rules + REALISTIC damages and REALISTIC failures. I'm SURE most of the "accidents may happen people" will have hard times when they realise they need to avoid contacts as much as possible not because it's dirty, because every contact is a risk and may cause a RETIREMENT. Sometimes you are lucky sometimes you are not.

In real life you may end the race just for a tiny contact regardless the skills or agressivity of the driver. Think about what happen'd to Alonso in Malasya. This is how real life works.

When you go for the Grosjean route, 6 or 7 races crashing everytime you'll be much safer next time or you just quit racing.

 

[R34EVO9]

Real life flag rules .. Or do what f1 2012 did. Or do what nfs shift did and put people that drive clean with people that drive clean and the same for the dirty people . You couldn't join a clean room if you where a level 50 aggressive driver

 

[ShiftingGears]

Precisely. I think you can set it so that you can only join if you have a "safe" rating (never actually used it that much myself Only 'cause there's so few people still playing DiRT 3 and the only way to find a game is by forgoing all your preferences and joining whatever games there are available)

Lag could expose players to a lower rating however, same as accidental contact with people who stop in the middle of the road. I don't have that much faith that PD would enforce a proper rating system.

 

[05XR8]

Some racers have to be aware of the characteristics of opponents cars. One car may quick in straights and another quick through corners, another better at stopping and another better grip out of corners. The rules only work when the individual grasps they may not win the race at the first turn.
Example: I was in a room last night where after 2 races, the host lowered the pp from 600 to 500. We raced and the host kept the pp at 500 again. A racer asked why we had to race 500pp? The host said, "you couldn't control the car you were driving. What makes you think you're gonna control a higher pp and ruin the next persons race. Either accept it or leave." We all applauded the host and the racer stayed because it was a clean room.

Hey, general rules for clean racing would be cool. But, like Exorcet typed, its up to the host.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Lag could expose players to a lower rating however, same as accidental contact with people who stop in the middle of the road. I don't have that much faith that PD would enforce a proper rating system.

You don't scrap a system that might benefit millions of users because something "might" happen. Lag affects the non-laggers randomly so that shouldn't be a big issue, it will affect the rating of a consistent lagger and that would be appropriate. You could also allow hosts to toggle rooms as affecting ranking "on" and "off". You can open rooms that don't affect ranking if you want, enter at own risk.

Accidental contact is also random but good drivers tend to get into less "accidental" contact than bad ones.

As for PD developing a system that actually works and anticipates most of the workarounds of enterprising GT6ers, well you got me there...lol

 

[IceMan PJN]

You can't enter a room with a clean tag unless you hit accept the rules, simple.

No, your answer was simple, but it didn't answer the question. The question was about how the rules are enforced, not how they're agreed upon.

 

[1241Penguin]

Given PD's past experiences with a penalty system, I'm not sure they can do automated penalties, but that's assuming they don't improve.

 

[watermelon punch]

Accidental contact is also random but good drivers tend to get into less "accidental" contact than bad onesl

Very true.

As for PD developing a system that actually works and anticipates most of the workarounds of enterprising GT6ers, well you got me there...lol

Also very true...

Truth is that the only way to have enforced rules is to have the same people racing together a lot, cooperating to police/steward races for dirty driving or griefers... and that's the best you can do.
Of course organized stewarded races where the replays will be watched are also likely to discourage griefers & dirty drivers.

An in-game system designed by PD or anyone really?

Just look at the so-called Penalty Strong setting for lounge/lobbies in gt5.
It's SOOOOOOOO easily exploited by griefers.

Any rules that they come up with are likely to just give hard core gamer griefers more fun in coming up with cheeky ways to stick it to people by gaming the system.

 

[Yukon]

The player rating system shouldn't be all that hard to work with though, as it could be based mostly on "severe" impacts, however PD decides to define that, so that it down ticks rammers.

A player rating system isn't a good idea. You'll end up with fair drivers being penalised for being involved in accidents or major contact with other drivers, through no fault of their own which would reflect badly on their profile. You'll see this driver enter a room and instantly think that he's a dirty racer, when he's not.

You're going to be making occasional contact just because of the nature of racing. Of course, if you're consistently in pile-ups you have a problem.

Which emphasises my point above. What if you're a regular NASCAR racer? You may end up being involved in huge pile-ups nearly every race if you're unlucky enough, which is then reflected on your rating.

Trying to enforce an official Clean Rules and Regulations for online racing to every single person who buys the game wouldn't be possible, in my eyes. No matter what, even if people agree to abide by the rules, there will still be those who break them.

Don't get me wrong, here, I think everyone should race cleanly and should stick to fair regulations and sportsmanship whilst on the track, but unless this can be implemented in a way which wouldn't penalise the drivers who haven't done anything wrong, or may get caught up in the odd crash due to many different factors which are involved with racing, it shouldn't be implemented at all.

 

[watermelon punch]

@ Yukon

I think a player rated system would be less problematic than some in game automatic assessment of your crashes... because it wouldn't unfairly hurt people who race dirty agreeably.
Obviously people in dirty shuffle rooms would NOT be reporting other players for "racing dirty".

I organize & host racing with VERY strict clean racing rules.
However, I think if people want to participate in dirty racing - like Dirty NASCAR or dirty shuffle rooms - that is OKAY by me. I wouldn't presume to tell someone else what they should or should not do for fun, among others who agree.

I also disagree that clean racers have a lot of accidents, or even an equal amount to dirty drivers.
It's not true compared to dirty racers... it would be impossible on average.
Clean racers who are deliberately racing with zero contact as the goal, who are occasionally crashed out by a griefer, or who occasionally crash by accident, definitely do have less crashes than griefers who go into clean rooms & cause crashes, or people who spend time in dirty racing.
This is a no-brainer math/statistics issue.
It just doesn't add up. How on earth can someone who races clean wind up with a grossly disproportionate amount of crashes in their history compared to someone who's deliberately crashing????

 

[Yukon]

Obviously people who race dirty would have more crashes to their name than those who go into a race with the intent of driving as cleanly as possible, but, it's not un-common for clean drivers to often be involved in accidents or bumps and even offs into the wall during a race.

What I'm trying to say is that even if it's a little easier to distinguish between the clean and the dirty, a player rating system would still be untrue to what actually happens in the majority of online races. Even if you race with the most fair of drivers, there's always going to be incidents in online racing. I'm sure even the most skilled of drivers on GTP have been caught up in a crash before.

I just don't personally think that type of thing would work.

 

[watermelon punch]

I'm not saying I think it's a good idea.
Mainly because there are people who race dirty AND clean. And I don't see any reason to penalize that. If people drive dirty in dirty rooms - that's their business I say!! People should be allowed to enjoy the game in whatever ways they choose, and in any proportion, IMO.
And many people I race with sometimes participate in dirty racing... BUT, in clean races - they drive clean. Nothing wrong with that I say!

But I do think it could work conceivably. With a threshold, and ratios involved in the rating.
I mean obviously if a system like this were to be implemented it would be using statistical ratios.
Not just "oh this person has crashes".
(I don't know why anyone would think it would be an ON/OFF rating system. Like either zero crashes or yes crashes. Why would any rating system be so black & white when mathematical data can be easily used in a rating algorithm?)

And anyone with half a clue would realize that everyone has crashes from time to time. But obviously people who crash on purpose regularly would have LOADS LOADS MORE crashes to their name.

And I do think that it would be unfair to people who participate in both clean and dirty racing.
BUT, OTOH, they could always make separate accts for the different preference, to avoid that.

Append: Anyone who thinks that "clean drivers" crash almost as much as dirty drivers, IMHO, doesn't know what real clean racing really is!!!
(And those of us who do know what real clean racing is... well, we'd be only too happy if a spade was called a spade! IE: if you crash a lot - you're NOT a clean racer, no matter how much you claim to be!!)

 

[lazywolfe]

Apr 22 2013

 

[stiggygonzalez]

Maybe after a race if there were 'incidents' during the race a special replay is shown giving the the host a chance to analyse and decide who's kicked based on an 'incident' replay for the host only,or an automatic system for careless driving say,3 acts and your out etc etc.

 

[eran0004]

I think it's enough to provide some room for the host to type instructions for the room. In GT5 you basically have the 20 or so characters of the title to give everyone the info they need, unless you want to type in the chat box over and over again when someone joins.

There will always be trolls, and the only solution is to kick them. But for the honest fair players this should work well enough.

 

[steve30x]

I cant see any clean rules working. I've been playing racing online for 10 years and its an extremely rare occasion that you get a clean race no matter how careful you are. Even professional racers in real races have accidents.

 

[watermelon punch]

Maybe after a race if there were 'incidents' during the race a special replay is shown giving the the host a chance to analyse

In-lobby replays would be helpful for sure. With the ability to go straight to the problem point even better.

I cant see any clean rules working. I've been playing racing online for 10 years and its an extremely rare occasion that you get a clean race no matter how careful you are. Even professional racers in real races have accidents.

a) real life races can't compare to people trying to have fun in a video game - there's a whole different set of motivations, incentives, consequences, etc. etc. Comparing the 2, to me, in the context of this discussion is, quite frankly, completely irrelevant.

b) you must only participate with dirty drivers if all races are dirty. I RARELY see dirty driving or dirty drivers. Indeed, most of the races I participate in, there are barely any accidental crashes, not even much accidental contact... never mind dirty driving or deliberate collisions.
My opinion - Either, for 10 years, you've been playing racing games with some real jerks, OR you've just for 10 years played only with really sloppy players... OR, you yourself are not actually a clean driver at all, and have no clue what some of us are talking about when many of us say "clean".

 

[Johnnypenso]

A set of rules like the GTP OLR, endorsed by PD would help for sure. Won't solve all the problems but at least we will all have a common frame of reference. The whole solution to this issue lies with empowering hosts both exclude certain drivers to begin with and review and analyze races quickly and easily. Excluding would take the form of driver ratings, driver tests as in the GTP community etc. and the ability in lobbies to set thresholds, or not, whatever the case may be. Using the GTP system as an example, you should be able to set a minimum driving standard of any GTP driver ranking, D1-D5, with "unranked" being an option for those that don't care.

Review would include things like instantly having replays available to at least the host, if not all players, within a lobby, along with fast forward/rewind controls and perhaps a "collision detection" system that allows you to skip from incident to incident easily.

But I seriously doubt you'll see PD doing any of that, mainly because it's contrary to their interests. All they care about are sales and anything that excludes people from playing, even inconsiderate dbags, could cost them sales. The more controls you have for excluding bad drivers, the less people play the game and that doesn't help the bottom line.

 

[watermelon punch]

But other games have player rankings don't they?
I don't know if the same kind would work, or if I'd even like it. But other games do have those options.

Whatever ranking options there are of course, depend on things being flexible, so people have choices.
I don't see that as an impossibility with any system.