Should VGT go die?

[PAPPACLART]

The more cars the merrier, even if they are make belief :-)

 

[Imari]

.. the point I was making, was that I think it is possible to simulate the results of something, without having built it, if we know the physics behind it, which I believe we do in the case of Laser propulsion.

That's sort of the thing though. You can simulate the amount of propulsion that a laser system of a given power would provide. That's not particularly difficult.

But that's not the only useful information about that engine. It also needs a weight, a cooling system, a power source and so on, and these elements need to be incorporated into a real car for this to be a physical simulation. Otherwise it's just pulling a number out of thin air and hand waving away all the problems.

If I make a fantasy car with an internal combustion engine that weighs 5kg, fits in the centre console and produces 900hp by burning methane, that's not really a simulation unless I can at least make a decent estimate of how such an engine would be constructed. Maybe it's just not possible by any known method to make an engine with that much power that small, even though technically no physical laws are being violated.

The laser part of the Chapparal is fine. But the ancillaries need to be so massive by anything even remotely approaching reasonable technology that the car basically becomes pure fantasy.

Here's a 30kW military laser. It's mounted on a truck, and they're hoping to scale it to 60kW this year.

http://www.zmescience.com/research/technology/most-powerful-laser-weapon-9634654/

So basically they'd have to improve the power by at least an order of magnitude, reduce the weight by at least a couple of orders of magnitude, and reduce the dimensions by a metric :censored:load. The power source is actually the closest, as a 25kWh battery bank would run it for ~10 minutes, assuming it could discharge fast enough, although again it's probably an order of magnitude too heavy. Still, one could probably whip something up out of supercaps or other technologies that exist but aren't ready for mass production.

I don't have a problem with the fundamental physics of the propulsion unit. I have a problem with the suggestion that such a system could be packaged onto a car even remotely like the 2X. That's the fantasy part, and that's why it's nowhere near a simulation to me.

The numbers for something like the Merc VGT are what they are because that's roughly what such a car could be like if it were made. The numbers for the 2X are what they are because they're awesome, not because they have any actual basis in reality.

 

[Oyashiro-sama]

I say die!!!!!!!!! Just die already!!!

Gimme real cars. If I want stupidity, I can play wipeout.

 

[nickg07]

If GTS already had 1000 premium cars etc covering all the old glory that the fans want then I see no issue with VGT.

As it stands with such a low car count the amout of effort PD are putting into the VGT project compares to cars people do actually want is far too disproportionate. It's a side show but some how seems to be taking over. That I do not like.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Gran Turismo has always had fictional race cars and concept cars, this isn't a case of something being changed completely as in the case of the Coke formula, instead a feature that someone doesn't like is being more pronounced.

Back in the day a tiny proportion of the car count were concepts and the "fictional" racecars actually looked like real world race cars with real world specs and, to most observers, much like the Group B Mustang, could easily be mistaken for a real race car. Quite a bit different from a VGT in amongst the LMP's isn't it? Quite a bit different from a huge portion of the DLC for an entire game being concept cars isn't it? If the program is only half finished that potentially means as many as 40 concept cars soon enough. If they are all in GTS it could easily be 1/4 of the car count. Since a modeler can only model one thing at a time, it's replacing real car DLC as well. If that isn't a serious change in direction for the franchise I don't know what is.

And if the direction that a game developer takes their game is a valid concern, then the game may not be for you, and a suitable replacement may need to be found.

Or, we could discuss it here and find another game at the same time. The two things aren't mutually exclusive.

Again, not every post has a hidden agenda. Sometimes, the curtain is just blue.

And some posts do have a hidden agenda. You let me know when you can tell the difference.

 

[MatskiMonk]

That's sort of the thing though. You can simulate the amount of propulsion that a laser system of a given power would provide. That's not particularly difficult.

Indeed, that was kind of my original point to Samus.

But that's not the only useful information about that engine. It also needs a weight, a cooling system, a power source and so on, and these elements need to be incorporated into a real car for this to be a physical simulation. Otherwise it's just pulling a number out of thin air and hand waving away all the problems.

If I make a fantasy car with an internal combustion engine that weighs 5kg, fits in the centre console and produces 900hp by burning methane, that's not really a simulation unless I can at least make a decent estimate of how such an engine would be constructed. Maybe it's just not possible by any known method to make an engine with that much power that small, even though technically no physical laws are being violated.

The laser part of the Chapparal is fine. But the ancillaries need to be so massive by anything even remotely approaching reasonable technology that the car basically becomes pure fantasy.

Here's a 30kW military laser. It's mounted on a truck, and they're hoping to scale it to 60kW this year.

http://www.zmescience.com/research/technology/most-powerful-laser-weapon-9634654/

So basically they'd have to improve the power by at least an order of magnitude, reduce the weight by at least a couple of orders of magnitude, and reduce the dimensions by a metric :censored:load. The power source is actually the closest, as a 25kWh battery bank would run it for ~10 minutes, assuming it could discharge fast enough, although again it's probably an order of magnitude too heavy. Still, one could probably whip something up out of supercaps or other technologies that exist but aren't ready for mass production.

I don't have a problem with the fundamental physics of the propulsion unit. I have a problem with the suggestion that such a system could be packaged onto a car even remotely like the 2X. That's the fantasy part, and that's why it's nowhere near a simulation to me.

The numbers for something like the Merc VGT are what they are because that's roughly what such a car could be like if it were made. The numbers for the 2X are what they are because they're awesome, not because they have any actual basis in reality.

I can't really disagree with any of that, and it makes for interesting technical research.

VGT's are, broadly speaking, concept cars. One of the feature concepts of the 2X is laser propulsion. Is it a flawed concept as a means to propel a racing car? Pretty much, and I think we agree on that for more than the technical reasons alone.

It's also not a great interpretation of the stated design brief...

The project started with a question from Kazunori Yamauchi: "Would you be willing to design your rendition of Gran Turismo for us?" The videogame’s name "Gran Turismo" (GT) refers to a 2-door sport car, known as a Grand Touring car in the automotive world.

And, personally I dislike the 2X as a vehicle quite a bit, I think it's ugly and a pain in the ass to drive.

But... I think it offers up some interesting points for consideration, and ultimately I am prepared to look at what you refer to as "hand waving away all the problems", as simply saying "what if...?" and simulating from that point on. "What if..." is one of the things that makes simulation in general interesting to me, and perhaps one of the reasons I've always quite liked concept cars.

It might be an ugly pig to drive, but I thinks its already provoked some of the most interesting ideas that the VGT project has highlighted - one of which being what if a racing car that didn't rely on grip for acceleration, or require the transfer of torque to the wheels? If in no other way, at least it's succeeded in that sense for me.

 

[Nielsen]

I don't think they should have ever existed, but now they might as well stay dedicated to the resources already spent. Gran Turismo accomplished a similar goal with the GT by Citroën. I didn't really mind that car because it was a standalone venture, but the VGT project is overkill. These cars are mostly marketing gimmicks.

I agree it's cool if VGT cars facilitate the progress of something making it onto public roads, but that's still a big price to pay when considering how they have affected the priorities going into Gran Turismo games.

 

[Samus]

The focus is the biggest issue, honestly. In GT6 I could mostly ignore them, they were a tiny fraction of the overall car list and they weren't really heavily promoted to be used except for the special seasonal events. They did dominate the DLC however, and that is where things started getting overdone.

With GT Sport you can't move for them. They dominate promotional material, they're implemented in all of the official game modes and importantly they make up a large part of the car list. At the least we're looking at 24/140 cars being VGT. 17% of the car list are VGTs, probably more.

 

[7HO]

I know they are all pretend cars and I have no confidence that GT accurately simulates any car so I shouldn't care but as a sim racer what I wish to simulate is real racing so I don't like that effort has been wasted building cars that are completely imaginary instead of building cars that at least give the illusion of being real by the fact that they are based on real cars.

It is kind of why I don't care for street cars being in a racing title because only racing cars that actually race is realistic but I can accept street cars before I can accept VGT.

I mean how is VGT any different than just building T-180 WRL cars? If you are going to give me something imaginary give me those so I can live out my Speed Racer fantasies. Now there's an esport that needs to happen.

 

[nocturnalgrey]

As am I. I'd like the VGT cars to be a bit more grounded in reality; that said, it's still a pivotal moment in the auto and games industries when a developer can go to a manufacturer and ask them to develop a concept specifically for their product. Though, the old man in me says the golden age of racing games ended somewhere around 10 years ago, when every publisher pretty much gave up on big-budget arcade racers. Right now, we're in the golden age of simulators, and everything else has kind of disappeared.

And that is the point I was trying to illustrate. The VGT project is of historical significance. The companies that are involved here are not local shops. These are global powerhouses when it comes to what we drive.

It's not like these companies haven't always been designing wacky concept cars. Just now someone is modelling them in a video game.

And.... isn't that awesome? Right around when Gran Turismo came out, I began paying attention to car shows from around the world. I still do too. Moving to the present day, I get to actually "drive" these concept cars.

I for one am in the minority in this, but I like made up/fictional race cars. It makes me feel like I'm making history with it when I'm racing Now mind you, I am in favor of more authentic race cars. Believe me, but I don't necessarily condemn fictional but close to realistic racecars either.

Just my take on it.

I believe we are experiencing some forms of technology that our grandchildren will someday see. I honestly expect to be playing Gran Turismo against my grandchildren and you know what? The cars we are driving could very well be one of these VGT's!!

 

[Samus]

And.... isn't that awesome? Right around when Gran Turismo came out, I began paying attention to car shows from around the world. I still do too. Moving to the present day, I get to actually "drive" these concept cars.

Not really, but to each their own.

 

[Tired Tyres]

So I just counted, currently we know of 24 cars in GTS that are either a VGT, fictional race car or both.

Of the 137 cars that is a 17.5% fictional rate and it's only going to increase since most VGT are not absolutely confirmed, but as good as.

So again, I think it is a very valid point.

That 24 include the doubling up of VGT's in road and race form?

I don't understand all the hate for the VGT program. Believe me, I absolutly hate, HATE, concept cars. I just don't find them practical. They look over the top, and they just don't appeal to me. However, these are only for a video game, they're ment to have fun with, not be practical; push the limits of one's imagination. They're there to inspire and get people thinking. "If we did this, what could that open up for possiblilities?" Truat me, I'd love to have a 2017 Ford GT, or a McLaren P1, or [ENTER REAL LIFE CAR HERE]. If we don't get them, yeah, I'll be a bit dissapointed, but I'm not going to cry a river over it. It's free DLC for goodness sakes! It may not be exactly what I want, but I don't gotta pay for it, so yeah, I'll get it. Brodens the experience, right?

No game is going to be exactly what everybody wants. GT has a handling model that I enjoy, since it's easy to pick up, but the cars are a bit dated. PCARS has a lot of the cars I like, but we all know what happened with that one. It's all about compromise. You don't like it, don't drive the VGT's, but doj't shoot the people in the foot that do enjoying having them.

What's even the issue with this? It's free content! What's the big problem?!?!?

It's called finite resources. Every time they make one of these cars, that's another Standard that hasn't been given the full Premium upgrade or it's another new car that isn't being modeled to add to the game. That is what the big problem is.

 

[Samus]

That 24 include the doubling up of VGT's in road and race form?

All the ones confirmed. The only one we've seen definitely doubled is the Mazda, the others are likely but not confirmed. So yes, the number is highly likely to get bigger. Actually it already has, 37 is the current total fictional cars, 19 VGT. Amazon says more than two dozen VGT, so definitely more to add.

 

[RandomCarGuy17]

I honestly don't think they should die out, but I don't think they should have been implemented in GT Sport. If PD had to remodel cars from the ground up on a game that's promoting FIA styled racing, I rather they focus on real world race cars instead for GT Sport. I believe the Vision GT cars could still be used, but on the next main series GT title than this one.

 

[Imari]

But... I think it offers up some interesting points for consideration, and ultimately I am prepared to look at what you refer to as "hand waving away all the problems", as simply saying "what if...?" and simulating from that point on. "What if..." is one of the things that makes simulation in general interesting to me, and perhaps one of the reasons I've always quite liked concept cars.

I think that's sort of the problem for me. I mean, from that perspective a Wipeout AG-craft is as plausible as the 2X. Neither violate any fundamental laws of physics and if you ignore all the technical problems could totally be made. Ditto death stars, time machines, FTL drives, and so on.

For me, it's too far into the realm of fantasy to be simulation. The Tomahawk X isn't much better, but I'm more willing to give that the benefit of the doubt in that it's probably very close to possible with current or near current technology, it would just cost a fortune and break all the time. The 2X flat out couldn't be built by any extension of any known techniques, and so no one can even have a moderate guess at whether it could be built as "designed".

This sort of thing is more like it, Hyundai actually put some thought into how the car would be laid out and what bits would go where.

I agree that the "what if" ideas are often the most interesting, but I don't think it's necessary to have fantastical things like the 2X in order to do that. A jet propelled car is a possibility if you want thrust without using the wheels, but it wasn't as "cool" as a laser.

 

[wowbaggerBR]

The focus is the biggest issue, honestly. In GT6 I could mostly ignore them, they were a tiny fraction of the overall car list and they weren't really heavily promoted to be used except for the special seasonal events. They did dominate the DLC however, and that is where things started getting overdone.

With GT Sport you can't move for them. They dominate promotional material, they're implemented in all of the official game modes and importantly they make up a large part of the car list. At the least we're looking at 24/140 cars being VGT. 17% of the car list are VGTs, probably more.

That's the thing: the exaggeration on the whole GT6 deploying of these cars.

In GT Sport, a game that they said would be heavily motorsport foccused, you'll have to endure grids mixing race cars with crazy hot-wheels imaginations that shouldn't be on a race track because they are just art, concepts, avant-garde designs.

 

[Samus]

That's the thing: the exaggeration on the whole GT6 deploying of these cars.

In GT Sport, a game that they said would be heavily motorsport foccused, you'll have to endure grids mixing race cars with crazy hot-wheels imaginations that shouldn't be on a race track because they are just art, concepts, avant-garde designs.

The convertible VW is the silliest one for me.

That has no business racing in GT3 races.

 

[wowbaggerBR]

The convertible VW is the silliest one for me.

That has no business racing in GT3 races.

I never cared for any of them, so I can't even point my silliest one.

Boggles the mind, really, seeing fields with VGTs, a Toyota TS030 (2012), Audi R18 (2011) and a Peugeot 908 (2010) sharing the track in a game that poses itself as a sim.

 

[Imari]

The convertible VW is the silliest one for me.

That has no business racing in GT3 races.

One wonders what the aero is like on something like that. It has all the streamlining of a brick, not to mention the open top. At least with real race cars you know that they're functional. Something like this...

At least the Marek and the RWD P30 have the decency to look like real LMP1 cars. Not that I particularly like them either, but they're at least a lot easier to ignore.

 

[MXH]

Boggles the mind, really, seeing fields with VGTs, a Toyota TS030 (2012), Audi R18 (2011) and a Peugeot 908 (2010) sharing the track in a game that poses itself as a sim.

That was quite a sight during the live stream.

It's like mixing chocolate with turd. You'll eventually notice something's not right.

 

[C_Raccoon23]

Yes. I didn't have interest in this fantasty car project back when GT6 came out, and I still don't now, especially when ridiculous concepts like the SRT Tomahawk are allowed. More DLC like this please:

http://www.gran-turismo.com/us/products/gt5/dlc/cars3/

Racing modifications are where I draw the line because at least those use real cars as the base.

 

[7HO]

That's the thing: the exaggeration on the whole GT6 deploying of these cars.

In GT Sport, a game that they said would be heavily motorsport foccused, you'll have to endure grids mixing race cars with crazy hot-wheels imaginations that shouldn't be on a race track because they are just art, concepts, avant-garde designs.

It doesn't matter because every class is GT3 in the sense that they are balancing cars so they have even performance.

"The race cars featured in Gran Turismo Sport are classified into categories based on real-world motorsports and tweaked to provide equal conditions during competition." http://www.gran-turismo.com/au/products/gtsport/original_cars/

 

[PzR Slim]

It doesn't matter because every class is GT3 in the sense that they are balancing cars so they have even performance.

"The race cars featured in Gran Turismo Sport are classified into categories based on real-world motorsports and tweaked to provide equal conditions during competition." http://www.gran-turismo.com/au/products/gtsport/original_cars/

Surely this means we are not going to see the ability to upgrade cars and tune them. So basically everything has been fudged. Essentially 137 VGT's. The more I read the more despondent I become.

 

[7HO]

Surely this means we are not going to see the ability to upgrade cars and tune them. So basically everything has been fudged. Essentially 137 VGT's. The more I read the more despondent I become.

Kind of but not exactly.

IMO every car in GT ever has been kinda fudged and kinda is being kind.

However like I said every car is pretty much a GT3 class because this is standard practice in GT3, it is how the rules and class works. So you can pretty much say that the group 3 cars based on real life GT3 cars are most likely to be the most accurate cars in the game. Then the imagined group 3 cars are also very fitting in the class especially if they have been built under the supervision of the FIA because the way GT3 works is manufacturers build a car that fits a loose set of guidelines and then those cars are balanced by FIA using things like an intake restrictor, engine management, weight penalties and fuel tank size.

If these are the methods PD are using in other classes as well then that pretty much makes every class a GT3 kind of class. For an esports game this is an excellent practice.

Although this game is very similar to iRacing in many areas this is one area where it is very different. iRacing mostly focus on classes that mirror real world classes using cars that are very accurate digital recreations of real world cars. But when a car changes every build that authenticity is very questionable, exactly which build was the car realistic? GTS clearly isn't trying to be a perfect simulation and it seems here that the competition aspect is what is most important to them. I think this is the right approach for this kind of game.

 

[JoaoSilva]

VGT's are awesome. As long as they don't prioritize it over real-life cars.

 

[wowbaggerBR]

It doesn't matter because every class is GT3 in the sense that they are balancing cars so they have even performance.

"The race cars featured in Gran Turismo Sport are classified into categories based on real-world motorsports and tweaked to provide equal conditions during competition." http://www.gran-turismo.com/au/products/gtsport/original_cars/

Again, in a game that calls itself a simulator.

 

[7HO]

Again, in a game that calls itself a simulator.

Technically it is, anything that imitates reality is a simulator so the term is very loose but as far as sim racers are concerned we usually determine if something is a sim first by the way it drives and second by the standard of the day compared to other sims. By today's standard no GT is a sim and GT is usually talked about as a joke across the internet by sim racers but for the majority of console gamers GT and Forza are still at the top, well mainly Forza these days I think.

Normally GT is called the real driving simulator. I discussed that in another thread but that could mean a lot of different things to different people, the question is do numbered Gran Turismos capture the essence of driving? But GT Sport is something different, it is a racing simulator, it is a sport title. As long as they get the elements right I have no doubt GT Sport can be a great racing simulator even if no car in the game is faithful to a real life car that it actually pretends to be. As long as the driving experience is believable and the racing is real then it has accomplished what it sets out to do. The fact is when it comes to race cars almost no one has the experience to know how faithful a simulation is. And then you get something like iRacing where some race driver will say the car is just like the one they race in real life, then iRacing changes the car so it is completely different and another race driver says it is just like the one they drive in real life.

I don't think this GT will be different to the former ones in that I don't think it will be a realistic simulation of the cars it has in it. I'm just hoping the sim is realistic enough and not horrible and the racing is great. I wish it was different, I wish it only did real cars accurately but that isn't what GT is known for. What they are known for is crap but I'm hoping this one is better, I'm hoping it is good enough. Fingers crossed.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Surely this means we are not going to see the ability to upgrade cars and tune them. So basically everything has been fudged. Essentially 137 VGT's. The more I read the more despondent I become.

There are several possibilities. The cars might be BoP'd only for sanctioned races. They might be upgradable and tunable for open lobbies and anything done offline. It might also be possible that they are BoP'd but there are still elements of tuning available as in GT3. You might still be able to tune suspension, aero, tires etc.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

There are several possibilities. The cars might be BoP'd only for sanctioned races. They might be upgradable and tunable for open lobbies and anything done offline. It might also be possible that they are BoP'd but there are still elements of tuning available as in GT3. You might still be able to tune suspension, aero, tires etc.

Agreed.
To my logic the inclusion of PP values, which we've seen from screen shots, wouldn't be entertained unless tuning is included somewhere within the game.

 

[nocturnalgrey]

Again, in a game that calls itself a simulator.

The convertible VW is the silliest one for me.

That has no business racing in GT3 races.

I believe what we are seeing is something similar to what the company I work for calls the 90/10 rule.

Our product is designed and built for 90% of the local demographic with hope of the remaining 10% accepting what we have to offer. In GT speak...

90% of the people who are interested in GT Sport will not be bothered by this at all.
10% of the people who are interested in GT Sport will be but there remains a percentage of those who will buy it anyways.

Me? I personally love that VW.