Skyline trouble

[XPLOSV]

Exactly what VIPERGTSR01 said. Its not all about power and weight. Its got a super stiff chassie. Much stiffer than most supercars out there. Thats part of the reason why it can hold insane mid corner speed.
Its got perfect weight distribution and suspension setup set to a tee.

 

[S13DRIFTSPEC]

7:56 not bad keeping in mind that the car was designed 15 years ago with no major changes except for maybe the engine displacement up from 3.2L from 3.0L. Even the old NSX-R (with the flip lights) got around the Nurb at 8:03.

 

[Moadib]

I only mentioned 1/4 mile because thats where muscle cars shine, if you want track numbers just look at Nurburgring laps times for example, or in best motoring where a stock R34 GTR & Evo VIII was hard on the tail of a Porsche turbo while the Z06 corvette (C5) was left way behind.

In part it's just my predjudice showing - I freely admit I'm not a muscle car fan. From a "human" point of view I hate cars that unnecessarily consume (i.e. you don't NEED 10 litre engine and 4mpg to go down to work and back), and most muscle cars fall into this category (don't get me started on SUVs....!). From an engineering point of view, cars which are developed toward a purpose appeal.

In the case of quarters, muscle cars shine, but even then a Caterham R500 will leave them for dead. Cheaper, lighter, faster, smaller - engineered for the purpose. I've never seen makes a car appealing when it's simply had a huge engine thrown in it.

 

[Moadib]

I havent compared the stats.. but is the C6 really less economical and practical than the FQ400?!?!? i mean.. that thing gets 4MPG last time i checked... I dont know the complete stats, so i wont go claiming that The C6 is the more practical car...

You can get four people plus luggage into the FQ400 = practical. You can use it every day for commuting etc.

Anyway, when comparing cost of cars, fuel consumption is truly insignificant. Purchase cost and depreciation dwarf everything else. In any case the "4mpg" came from Top Gear absolutely thrashing the car on the track. If you have any car redlined for a day it will drink fuel.

The really amazing thing is power per litre - >200bhp per litre. The 'Vette designer says "we set our sights on breaking 400bhp", and he used 5.7 litres of engine to do it. The Evo gives the same power....with 1/3 of the displacement. So for the 'Vette really to be an "engineering achievement" it should be pumping out 1,200bhp

 

[XPLOSV]

Dont forget the FQ400 comes with a Mitsubishi factory warrenty so its reliable.

 

[ajrichar]

I am a little apprehensive at posting in this thread due to the at times inflamed nature of the discussion.

I have driven an R32 GT-R, and thought it was simply superb. The engine noise, the thrust, the grip, the acceleration, were truly awesome. I have also been a (very happy) passenger in an R33 GT-R V-spec (also amazing), and I have to say that I found both cars to rate exceptionally high on the grin scale.

I have also been lucky enough to drive the current model Mazda MX-5, and just superceded BMW M5 (the 400bhp V8 one). Both were also exceptionally good.

Unfortunately I have not had the pleasure of piloting an American muscle car, although it is something I would like to do some time (the closest I got was slotting in behind the wheel of a stationary Viper GTS).

Arguing the toss over the merits of Japanese high-tech over American muscle will never satisfactorily be settled. Its a 'horses for courses' issue, and nothing quite gets the hackles up like arguing for your favourite car. I can therefore understand the partisan responses from each camp. I also feel however that it is not very helpful to be at each other's throats either. Surely we are all friends here?

Muscle cars make great sense in America, but less so in other parts of the world. And of course, big engined, rear wheel drive big horsepower cars have been part of American (and Australian) culture for as long as cars have been built. Conversely, the smaller spaces and different attitude toward motor-production mean that Japanese engineers/car makers focus their cars to a different purpose. Smaller capacity engines, smaller packaging, high technology and lower emissions are the general trademark of a Japanese performance car as against an American muscle car. That is just the way it is, right or wrong, whichever way you like your cars. (Subaru and Mitsubishi also make their Imprezas and Lancers to compete in the WRC which has its own rules demanding 2 litres engines, whereas the US races large capacity vehicles as in Nascar and Truck racing. Each motor industry reflects to a large degree the competition mentality that each respective country engages).

I personally like high technology cars like the GT-R - in fact, it is my all-time favourite car. I love the potent package of all-wheel-drive, twin turbo charging, and four wheel steering to produce a 'smart' way of delivering big performance without requiring big cubes. And my favourite model is the R32 produced between 1989 and 1994. It is the most compact of the three models known as 'Godzilla', and I argue, the purest. I understand also that it is not everyon'e cup of tea.

I have little doubt that Muscle cars offer superb value for money in a 'bang for your buck' sense, but then again, so does an STi Impreza or a Lancer Evo. It's just a matter of what you prefer.

But I really dislike people saying GT-R's are 'rubbish' or 'over-rated' (just as muscle car affectionados hate to see their 'hero' cars denigrated). GT-R's are genuinly outstanding vehicles, and offer an all-round driving experience in all conditions. Wet, dry, high or low grip. They are not THE most outstanding performance car ever built, but they will do me. And I guess their real impact (for which they are remembered) came in 1989 when they were first unleashed onto an unsuspecting market. They genuinely were ahead of their time, and built upon the usefulness of four-wheel-drive performance for the road set by Audi's Quattro.

They may not outsprint a 'Vette or 'Stang in a straight line, but that does not mean that they have little to offer, or should be dismissed. In fact, it is arguable that a GT-R makes more sense in most parts of the world outside of the US and Australia, due variously to car regulations, traffic laws, road infrastructure, taxes and the cost of fuel from the pump.

But chill everyone. Both types of car have something to offer the motoring enthusiast...

 

[Moadib]

In fact, it is arguable that a GT-R makes more sense in most parts of the world outside of the US and Australia...

Good points, well made...

Can I just say that having "enjoyed" the drive from Melbourne up the Hume Highway, past Canberra to Sydney, I'm not sure that ANY car make sense. Seriously, with those roads, and such a tiny amount of traffic, what the heck are you guys doing with speed limits?!?!? They should be set at about a zillion miles an hour (in fact they need to be given the distances), but with an empty highway stretching in front of you and plenty of horses underfoot, 110km/h is the maximum allowed

On a crowded autobahn I get terrorised by people doing 300+, but 1/3 of that is allowed on an empty and perfect road in Australia?

 

[FC3Sideways]

7:06 --- BMW M3 GTR, 24hrs, test session, Jörg Müller (2003)
7:19 --- Radical SR3 Turbo H22A (2003)
7:25 --- Alzen Motorsport Porsche 996, 24hrs race, Uwe Alzen
7:28 --- Porsche Carrera GT, Walther Röhrl, Autobild July 2004
7:36 --- Porsche Carrera GT, factory test driver Walther Röhrl (2002)
7:40 --- Mercedes Benz McLaren SLR, Klaus Ludwig, Autobild July 2004
7:42 --- Radical 1500 SR3 (2002)
7:43 --- TechArt GT Street (2001)
7:43 --- Porsche 996 911 GT3 RS
7:44 --- Pagani Zonda C12 S (2003)
7:45 --- Gemballa Porsche GT-R 600 (2000)
7:46 --- Porsche 996 GT2
7:46 --- SHK Porsche 993 GT2, 652 PS (1999)
7:47 --- Porsche 996 GT3 RS, 381PS (996) (2004)
7:49 --- Porsche 996 GT3 Cup
7:50 --- BMW E46 M3 CSL (08/2003)
7:50 --- Blitz Supra, 750 PS, Herbert Schürg (1997)
7:50 --- Honda RC30, Helmut Daehne (1993)
7:50 --- Lamborghini Murcielago (06/2002)
7:52 --- Gemballa Porsche 911 Le Mans (1995)
7:52 --- Lamborghini Gallardo E-Gear (12/2003)
7:52 --- Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren (06/2004)
7:54 --- Porsche GT3 (996) (2003)
7:55 --- Caterham R500 Superlight (2002)
7:56 --- Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale (02/2004)
7:56 --- Porsche 996 Turbo
7:56 --- Chevrolet Corvette C6 (tested by Dave Hill)
7:57 --- Lotec Porsche 993 Turbo, 600 PS, racing suspension
8:03 --- Porsche 996 GT3 (1999)
8:04 --- Lamborghini Diablo GT (07/2000)
8:05 --- Ferrari 575M Maranello F1 (12/2002)
8:06 --- Mercedes-Benz SL55 AMG
8:06 --- Caterham 7 Superlight R, Robert Nearn
8:07 --- Ferrari 550 Maranello (06/1998)
8:09 --- Honda NSX-R 3.2 (08/2002)
8:09 --- Ferrari 360 Modena (10/1999)
8:09 --- Lamborghini Diablo SV (no ABS?)
8:10 --- Chrysler Viper GTS, 411PS, UK-Spec, no ABS (10/1997)
8:10 --- Donkervoort D8 180R
8:12 --- Mercedes-Benz SL55 AMG (04/2002)
8:12 --- Porsche 993 Turbo
8:13 --- Lotus Esprit Sport 350, 354 PS (05/1999)
8:10 --- Dodge Viper SRT-10
8:15 --- Ruf 911 CTR 2, 520 PS
8:15 --- Porsche 911 Carrera 2 (997) (Walter Rohrl - WHEELS June 2004)
8:16 --- AC-Schnitzer E36 M3 CLS II, 350 PS (11/1997)
8:17 --- Aston Martin V12 Vanquish (2003)
8:17 --- Porsche 996 C2
8:18 --- BMW Z8, 400 PS (08/2000)
8:18 --- Chevrolet Corvette Z06 Commemorative Edition, 344 PS (09/2003)
8:18 --- Ferrari F355 (06/1997)
8:20 --- Audi RS6 (2002)
8:22 --- BMW E46 M3 (12/2000)
8:22 --- BMW M Coupe, 321 PS (10/1998)
8:22 --- Mercedes-Benz C55 (07/2004)
8:23 --- Aston Martin DB7 GT (2003)
8:23 --- Porsche 996 Carrera 4
8:24 --- Subaru Impreza WRX STi (2004)
8:25 --- Audi RS4 375 HP
8:25 --- Callaway Corvette C12
8:25 --- Mitsubishi Carisma GT Evo VI (11/1999)
8:25 --- Mitsubishi Carisma GT Evo VII (11/2002)
8:26 --- Mercedes-Benz SLK 32 AMG (05/2001)
8:26 --- Nissan 350Z (2003)
8:28 --- BMW M5, 400 PS(also confirmed by Motor Commodore magazine, 2000)
8:28 --- Nissan Skyline GT-R, 277 PS
8:28 --- Porsche 993 Carrera 2
8:29 --- Mercedes-Benz CLK 55 AMG (05/2000)
8:29 --- Audi S4 4.2 Avant (11/2003)
8:30 --- Maserati Coupé Cambiocorsa (10/2002)
8:31 --- Ferrari F355 GTS, 380 PS
8:32 --- BMW M Roadster, 321 PS (09/1997)
8:32 --- BMW Z4 3.0 SMG (05/2003)
8:32 --- Porsche Boxster S
8:32 --- Volkswagen Golf R32
8:34 --- Acura NSX, 276 PS
8:34 --- BMW Z3 Coupé 3.0i, 231 PS (04/2001)
8:35 --- BMW M3 Coupe, 321 PS
8:35 --- Brabus-Mercedes Benz C V8 Sportcoupé (02/2002)
8:36 --- BMW E36 M3 EVO, 321 PS
8:36 --- Alpina-BMW B3 3.3 Coupé (07/1999)
8:37 --- Maserati 3200GT (2002)
8:37 --- Mercedes-Benz C32 AMG (09/2001)
8:37 --- Nissan Skyline GT-R V-Spec, 350 PS
8:37 --- Subaru Impreza GT Turbo
8:37 --- Honda NSX 3.0 (07/1991)
8:38 --- Honda NSX 3.2 (08/1997)
8:38 --- Mercedes-Benz SL500 (12/2001)
8:38 --- Porsche 996 Carrera, 296 PS
8:38 --- Brabus-Mercedes Benz CLK 5.8 (12/1998)
8:39 --- Honda S2000 (01/2000)
8:39 --- Morgan Aero 8 (04/2003)
8:40 --- Holden GTS, on an in and out lap (2000)
8:40 --- Chevrolet Corvette C5 Targa Automatic (07/1997)
8:41 --- Aston Martin DB7 (1999)
8:41 --- Audi S3, 210 PS (06/1999)
8:42 --- Audi S4, 265 PS (08/1998)
8:42 --- Lotus Exige (11/2000)
8:43 --- Honda Integra Type-R (12/2000)
8:44 --- Chevrolet Corvette C5
8:45 --- Chevrolet Corvette, 339 PS, automatic
8:46 --- Porsche 993 Carrera S, 285 PS
8:47 --- Honda Civic Type-R, 200 PS (11/2001)
8:49 --- Jaguar XKR Coupe (07/1998)
8:49 --- Renault Clio Sport V6
8:49 --- Audi TT 1.8T quattro Coupé, 225 PS (11/1998)
8:51 --- Mercedes Benz C43 AMG (02/1998)
8:52 --- Mercedes Benz CLK 430
8:58 --- Lotus Esprit Turbo SE (07/1991)
9:09 --- Volkswagen Golf V6 4Motion

This might clear a few things up. I found it in the "Weak Vettes" thread.

BTW, I'm new. Hey, everyone!

 

[S13DRIFTSPEC]

Displacement doesn't always mean bigger or heavier. An LS1 for example is shorter than a RB26DETT. It's the same length as a SR20 so it's shorter than a RB26DETT and its only around 6 inches wider. It weighs a few kilos more than those i6 engines. And another thing... most american cars aren't gas guzzlers. A z06 for example gets better gas mileage than R34 Skyline GTR.

 

[alexlees]

does GT4 have any skylines in it, or any japanese cars at all?

 

[98cobra]

does GT4 have any skylines in it, or any japanese cars at all?

 

[Gabkicks]

most of the steriotypes that most people have come to believe dont really apply at all. The problem is when ignorant people say that american cars cant corner ignoring the past 70 years of car production production. Or making fun of a car because its engine is small and it revs very high

Some cars are good, some are bad. You cant generalize them to parts of the world. 👍
Any steriotypes argued against one can be clearly pointed out in another

 

[Moadib]

And another thing... most american cars aren't gas guzzlers. A z06 for example gets better gas mileage than R34 Skyline GTR.

The Skyline R34-GTR shows 23mpg in highway driving, and the z06 gives 28. However, you can only get two people in the z06, and you get four in the Skyline.

Therefore the z06 gives 14mpg per person, whereas the Skyline 11.5 - a much more environmentally friendly car.

 

[Moadib]

most of the steriotypes that most people have come to believe dont really apply at all. The problem is when ignorant people say that american cars cant corner ignoring the past 70 years of car production production. Or making fun of a car because its engine is small and it revs very high

Some cars are good, some are bad. You cant generalize them to parts of the world. 👍
Any steriotypes argued against one can be clearly pointed out in another

You're right, and well said.

However, problems also arise when people are classed as "ignorant", and one makes assumptions that others base opinions on stereotype. Such comments can also be based on experience and facts...

 

[SaintKamus]

Well problem is that the Skyline is not a high end car. The Skyline GT-R V-Spec 2 is a high end car.
A standsard skyline is nothing to look at. Could get school by a damn Taurus! Skylines are okay, but their wieght gets the best of them.
My car of choice is a Ford Mustang. There is a Stang for everyone. The ladies can get a nice little V6 while the guys can get a n/ v8 all the way up to a supercharged 390 hp beast! And the Stang is the most popular car in the USA, has sold more than any other car.
Granted the GT-R skylines are okay, but other than that they aren't largly impressive. And when it comes to the USA in 2006 as an 07 model, nobody will care since weill:
2007 USA Skyline competitors:
2007 Mustang SVT Cobra (500+ hp)
Mach 1 mustang with be back with 370+
Gt Stang will be at 325 hp
GM revives Camaro!
z28 making 350 hp
SS making 400+
Dodge Charger with Hemi 345 hp
Dodge Charger SRT-8 hemi 425 hp
GTO is expected to be redone on the new camaro platform.

All of these cars fall in the $30,000 to $45,000 category.
Except the Mustang GT, only $25,000 there.
So the Skyline will have alot f competitors in the form of American muscle.
especialy since we only getting a performance model. GT-R. Shut-up to anyone who says it isn't true. We all seen the spy pics and heard the words from Nissan. All of the big magezines are reporting it. Reason we only gettin the high performance version is that we already have the g35 and g35 sedan, which are skylines in japan. So yeha Skylines are okay, but expect it to be swamped if nissan gives us a flaccid wanna-be GT-R since alot of very competitive **** coming around the same time or just before...

You're kidding right? those cars can't hold a candle to the Skyline GT-R sure.. they are ok on straights, but the skyline would leave them in the dust after the FIRST corner. a V8 mustang beating a skyline? oh please.

none of the cars you listed can touch the skyline GT-R on the track, hell, out of all the cars you listed only a few can go on the track with out you risking your life.

 

[Dave A]

I doubt any of thoes will be able to compete with a 2007 GT-R, remeber the new Skylines are not performace oriented cars, and the GT-R badge has been seperated from the Skyline brand now, so comparing 350Bhp+ sports cars to a Skyline is not fair comparison, a GT-R on the other hand will wipe the floor with almost anything in it's class, and the 2007 GT-R I expect would wipe it's arse with every one of thoes cars listed.

 

[SaintKamus]

Well problem is that the Skyline is not a high end car. The Skyline GT-R V-Spec 2 is a high end car.
A standsard skyline is nothing to look at. Could get school by a damn Taurus! Skylines are okay, but their wieght gets the best of them.
My car of choice is a Ford Mustang. There is a Stang for everyone. The ladies can get a nice little V6 while the guys can get a n/ v8 all the way up to a supercharged 390 hp beast! And the Stang is the most popular car in the USA, has sold more than any other car.
Granted the GT-R skylines are okay, but other than that they aren't largly impressive. And when it comes to the USA in 2006 as an 07 model, nobody will care since weill:
2007 USA Skyline competitors:
2007 Mustang SVT Cobra (500+ hp)
Mach 1 mustang with be back with 370+
Gt Stang will be at 325 hp
GM revives Camaro!
z28 making 350 hp
SS making 400+
Dodge Charger with Hemi 345 hp
Dodge Charger SRT-8 hemi 425 hp
GTO is expected to be redone on the new camaro platform.

All of these cars fall in the $30,000 to $45,000 category.
Except the Mustang GT, only $25,000 there.
So the Skyline will have alot f competitors in the form of American muscle.
especialy since we only getting a performance model. GT-R. Shut-up to anyone who says it isn't true. We all seen the spy pics and heard the words from Nissan. All of the big magezines are reporting it. Reason we only gettin the high performance version is that we already have the g35 and g35 sedan, which are skylines in japan. So yeha Skylines are okay, but expect it to be swamped if nissan gives us a flaccid wanna-be GT-R since alot of very competitive **** coming around the same time or just before...

oh, and if you don't belive me ask any friend who can drive to play a LAN battle with you... pick any of those cars on any track other than the las vegas drag strip.... and you'll see the results right away.

and by the way.. since you're making price comparassions.. howbout you pick a subaru WRX STi or a Lancer Evo VII MR ? those are about 30,000 and not only will they beat most of your cars (if not all?) on your list in a straight line... but will even lose them on their rear view mirror after the first corner... all for the same price of the much more "powerful" muscle cars you listed.

Man, you need to watch those cars in the track before you praise them, watch any epsiode of best motoring with american cars and you'll see just how "fast" those cars really are. heck, even an M3 that has much more HP than the JDM's will lose to some of those cars on small circuits because it's so heavy.

 

[SaintKamus]

I doubt any of thoes will be able to compete with a 2007 GT-R, remeber the new Skylines are not performace oriented cars, and the GT-R badge has been seperated from the Skyline brand now, so comparing 350Bhp+ sports cars to a Skyline is not fair comparison, a GT-R on the other hand will wipe the floor with almost anything in it's class, and the 2007 GT-R I expect would wipe it's arse with every one of thoes cars listed.

oh man! he's comparing it to the 2007 GT-R????!!!!
HAHAHHAHAHAHAHA

ok, ok i gotta control myself... the 2007 GT-R will probably beat a lot of supercars.... hopefully it won't have the price of one.
man, just what kind of crack are you smoking? a mustang? a camaro? beating a 2007 GTR? hmmm, maybe if we give those cars a 1 minute headstart on nurburgring they'll stand a chance... but then again, don't count on it.

 

[Dave A]

Yep he's comparing them to the 2007 GT-R "Granted the GT-R skylines are okay, but other than that they aren't largly impressive. And when it comes to the USA in 2006 as an 07 model, nobody will care since weill:" and then he gives his list of "better" cars.

 

[EGFerio]

Yep he's comparing them to the 2007 GT-R "Granted the GT-R skylines are okay, but other than that they aren't largly impressive. And when it comes to the USA in 2006 as an 07 model, nobody will care since weill:" and then he gives his list of "better" cars.

I like the R32 & R34. I think That the GT-R will be another monster from Nissan and it should be close or similar to the one Toyota is putting out around the same time frame. This is the article of the Toyota.

http://www.autoweek.com/article.cms?articleId=101466

 

[Dave A]

I would expect the GT-R to upstage that Toyota, it's expected to have similar power levels but the GT-R's chassis has always been the best. Although that new Toyota is a very nice machine and I think it will shame many supercars.

 

[RobcioPL]

What most of you are doing is comparing a R34, 2001, to cars that just came out like the 05 GTO or Mustang. The R34 should be compared to the 01 Cobra, and other American cars from that year.

 

[Dave A]

Still the R34 beats the **** out of the 05 Stang in recorded lap times. Still I agree with you, it's wrong to compaer older cars to the latest, bt the R34 isn't what I'd call old, it only went out of production last year.

 

[T5-R]

Wow that Supra is ugly Looks like a badly mutilated Lamborghini Murciélago.

 

[Wright1331]

Well problem is that the Skyline is not a high end car. The Skyline GT-R V-Spec 2 is a high end car.
A standsard skyline is nothing to look at. Could get school by a damn Taurus! Skylines are okay, but their wieght gets the best of them.
My car of choice is a Ford Mustang. There is a Stang for everyone. The ladies can get a nice little V6 while the guys can get a n/ v8 all the way up to a supercharged 390 hp beast! And the Stang is the most popular car in the USA, has sold more than any other car.
Granted the GT-R skylines are okay, but other than that they aren't largly impressive. And when it comes to the USA in 2006 as an 07 model, nobody will care since weill:
2007 USA Skyline competitors:
2007 Mustang SVT Cobra (500+ hp)
Mach 1 mustang with be back with 370+
Gt Stang will be at 325 hp
GM revives Camaro!
z28 making 350 hp
SS making 400+
Dodge Charger with Hemi 345 hp
Dodge Charger SRT-8 hemi 425 hp
GTO is expected to be redone on the new camaro platform.

All of these cars fall in the $30,000 to $45,000 category.
Except the Mustang GT, only $25,000 there.
So the Skyline will have alot f competitors in the form of American muscle.
especialy since we only getting a performance model. GT-R. Shut-up to anyone who says it isn't true. We all seen the spy pics and heard the words from Nissan. All of the big magezines are reporting it. Reason we only gettin the high performance version is that we already have the g35 and g35 sedan, which are skylines in japan. So yeha Skylines are okay, but expect it to be swamped if nissan gives us a flaccid wanna-be GT-R since alot of very competitive **** coming around the same time or just before...

Ignorance is bliss
First off those are good cars, but to think that the Skyline wont be that good is just Fvcking stupid. Even today those cars are being competed with by the Evos and the WRX, and I'm quite sure the Skyline will be at least as good as either of these. Im not saying Japanese cars are the end all story, but just because its owned by an american company doenst mean its the Greatest thing since sliced bread. Just so you know I live in Ohio about 45 minutes from Detroit, so its not like I am hating on the states. I just dont think some of those cars are as great as all the hype. Just look at a stock mustang on a dyno, that may change your mind

 

[Patrik]

Im a fan of R32 GTR, like this: for sale here in Sweden for $24.000

600hp!!!

 

[HKS_T51KAI]

We all know that American muscle is powerful but compare to the GTR! producing only a 280HP (206KW) and clocking times in the 13's second bracket in 400m is quite remarkable for a in-six cylinder Twinturbo compare to those V-8 brutes. just wait till the 2007 GTR comes out, Every V-8 on the road will be ****ing there pants.

 

[98cobra]

We all know that American muscle is powerful but compare to the GTR! producing only a 280HP (206KW) and clocking times in the 13's second bracket in 400m is quite remarkable for a in-six cylinder Twinturbo compare to those V-8 brutes. just wait till the 2007 GTR comes out, Every V-8 on the road will be ****ing there pants.

Not with the new cars we're coming out with.

 

[XPLOSV]

OMG can we just let this thread die.

Its quite clear that its going to be a never ending battle of personal oppinions etc etc.
Its wasting too much internet space

 

[Z32]

This is the article of the Toyota.

http://www.autoweek.com/article.cms?articleId=101466

photoshop of the LFA lexus concept from detroit. lexus brand is going global aound 2007. and of course what ebtter way to launch a global brand then with a halo car. lexus cars will then be unique to lexus, not rebadged toyotas as they are now.

but anywho....

to each, his/her own.

next week hot topic: auto vs manual followed by iraq and politics then abortion