Smarter AI

[danjama]

I disagree. The Porsche driver is clearly in the wrong. That Vette was about to pass, was making a pass, and the Porsche driver cock-blocked him. Very unsportsmanlike. It would be different if the Porsche was ahead by a car-length. Instead, he steered into the Vette's way as the Vette was passing.

That being said, it is fun to watch, I gotta admit. I'm currently watching the entire thing again.

I would normally agree, but the only reason the vette is able to pass is because he bumped the porsche, causing him to lose traction and therefore slowing his exit from the corner.

I suppose some will argue the Porsche shuld have accepted that he was bumped, but i think he had a right to block the Vette.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

I would normally agree, but the only reason the vette is able to pass is because he bumped the porsche, causing him to lose traction and therefore slowing his exit from the corner.

Yes, I agree there. There is a small bump from the Vette in the final corner. Whether it was intentional or not can be debated. I don't think it was intentional. It looks as if it happened in the heat of the moment.

I suppose some will argue the Porsche shuld have accepted that he was bumped, but i think he had a right to block the Vette.

But if you're gonna block someone...don't try to do it while they're already passing you. That's what I'm saying. If you're ahead a car-length....blocking is okay. The follower has to figure out how to get around it.

In any case, the bump had nothing to do with what happened a few seconds later. The Vette driver had the stronger car. He got ahead several times during the duel, and one can make the argument that the Porsche perhaps was a bit stronger with handling since he regained position over and over. But even if he hadn't bumped the Porsche, the Corvette still would have made ground on the Porsche and passed it cleanly. The Porsche driver intentionally (this can't be debated) crowded the Vette as the Vette was passing cleanly.

 

[Blitz187]

If GT PSP is anything to go by to give an indication of this topic. Then I dont think we have a lot to worry about in GT5, the GT PSP AI has GREATLY improved over GT4 and GT5... Ive had enough side by side experiences in GT PSP where the AI knows where I am and actually fights for position... without touching I might add If they would only get rid of the Rubberbanding in GT PSP it would be great.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

If GT PSP is anything to go by to give an indication of this topic. Then I dont think we have a lot to worry about in GT5, the GT PSP AI has GREATLY improved over GT4 and GT5... Ive had enough side by side experiences in GT PSP where the AI knows where I am and actually fights for position... without touching I might add If they would only get rid of the Rubberbanding in GT PSP it would be great.

Excellent. 👍 Yea I think GT5P is miles ahead of the Ai in earlier games, so I would expect some improvment overall.

From what I understand, GTPSP is supposed to be arcadish, since there's no sim mode? In this respect, rubberbanding wouldn't bother me so much in this game. It better not be in GT5, tho...I'll be pissed.

 

[LongbowX]

On the other hand, there was a moment when the Vette got over-aggro and steered at full speed into the pit lane. There's a slo-mo cam at 5:11. I'm not sure what the rules are, but this seems extremely dangerous. Of course, I do this all the time in Gran Turismo. But in real-life it seems like there should be a rule about this.

The Vette driver had the stronger car. He got ahead several times during the duel, and one can make the argument that the Porsche perhaps was a bit stronger with handling since he regained position over and over.

There is a rule against it. That is why the officials ordered Jan (the Corvette) to allow the Porsche to repass him. It is also important to note that during the time the Corvette had passed the Porsche (illegally though the pit-exit lane), the Corvette pulled away. He did have the faster car, but not to pull off an easy pass.

Anyway, back to the topic of smarter AI. Hopefully one day they'll be at the sort of level to recreate that sort of battle. However, not in this generation, I think.

 

[IsmokeGT]

the officials ordered Jan (the Corvette) to allow the Porsche to repass him. It is also important to note that during the time the Corvette had passed Porsche (illegally though the pit-exit lane), the Corvette pulled away. He did have the faster car, but not to pull off an easy pass.

Someone actually watched the video! The Porsche made several blocks that would not be in line with GTP's OLR. Not only did he block, he pushed him off the track! Then he crashed him! It was fun to watch until is it was obvious the Porsche had no intent on a clean, fair race.

All that said, I would rather race a guy like that over AI any day.

 

[Sele1981]

Guys you think the GT4 and GT5P AI suck??

God I got to record the Supercar Challenge AI today... It´s near impossible how bad the AI is... we got 2009... Be happy with the GT4 AI and thank god!

 

[Imari]

One assumes that the Porsche could have appealed the tap on the final corner after the race and if the officials deemed it necessary they could have awarded him the win. I understand why he did it, but running someone into the wall like that is ridiculous.

That said, the rest of the race was exactly like I'd love races to be. Close and exciting with two evenly matching and highly skilled drivers fighting cleanly for position. The few minor shunts and such that occured earlier were fine, and the pit lane manoeuve was sheer genius. Either he was going to get away with it or he wasn't, no real loss either way.

I'm of the opinion that the Prologue AI is acceptable. In most normal situations it keeps to itself and drives more or less like a steady but stable human. Given weird situations like multiple cars blocking it, it's sometimes OK but often not.
The GTPSP is excellent at controlling it's position on the track, but the strong rubber-band effect gives no information as to whether it's actually quick with a car or not. And we don't know why they chose to implement the AI like that, be it because of processor limitations, because it suited the style of the game, or because that's the best AI system they have.

I do hope they don't include a revenge system though. I want the AI to provide good clean racing, even if I occasionally screw up and tap them. Even if I'm feeling angry and want to play smash derby, I want to crash into them instead of constantly having to defend myself. I honestly don't think a revenge system enhances the play experience of any kind of racer.

 

[profi]

Gran Turismos AI is simply poor.

That it is yet possible to program a perfect AI for a racing game shows an old game: Mercedes Benz World Racing (for PC)

I dont know which engine they use but after playing almost any racing game since 2001 I still know one thing: This games AI and also physics are simply perfect:

Download the demo and try it out yourself. (Mr. Yamauchi, would you please also..?) (its 79,5 MB)
http://www.gamershell.com/download_3361.shtml

And NO, I am not an employee of the developer or the car industry..
It is simply my own experience regarding racing games.

 

[Raitziger]

50% AI complaints are because people are poor players. I mean how can you expect to have clean race in simulation game if you do not have what it takes to drive hard and clean. That is of course understandable as it is not easy to control racing car with freaking game controller

 

[TokyoDrift]

That Vette got what was coming to him... You don't loosen a guy up in the LAST turn of a race, and not see that coming. The Prsche forced him to the wall, and the Vette lost control. The Porsche did NOT fishtail him though. If you watch closely you can see the Vette hit the wall, and lose control, he doesn't even touch the Porsche.

Totally disagree. The stunt that the Vette pulled earlier in the race by using the pit-lane was remedied by letting the Porsche past. The bump in the last corner was a minor racing incident - heat of the moment thing as they were both racing hard. The fact that the Vette spun out IN FRONT of the Porsche shows that the Vette made his move, had the speed, was working his way past, and out of spite the Porsche forced him all the way into the wall. No wonder the Vette lost control. Totally unsportsmanlike - couldn't use his own skill and car to hold off the Vette so he uses the pit wall...

I'm still keeping my fingers tightly crossed for both Laguna Seca and Spa in GT5.

Seca is a dead cert, we can but pray for Spa!

 

[ST-2]

Totally disagree. The stunt that the Vette pulled earlier in the race by using the pit-lane was remedied by letting the Porsche past. The bump in the last corner was a minor racing incident - heat of the moment thing as they were both racing hard. The fact that the Vette spun out IN FRONT of the Porsche shows that the Vette made his move, had the speed, was working his way past, and out of spite the Porsche forced him all the way into the wall. No wonder the Vette lost control. Totally unsportsmanlike - couldn't use his own skill and car to hold off the Vette so he uses the pit wall...

I dunno, I think the Vette didn't need to punt him into the final turn, thats not racing. He was too far back to make the pass, should've accepted it and finished 2nd.

 

[regnar]

A revenge system not what needed, the AI just needs to be aware of it's opponents, tightening up it's racing line when going into a turn or making a one move block on a straightaway when a opponents on it rear. My problem with the AI is it makes the same moves on each lap, so in some turns, I just wait for the AI to move over, as it does the same on each lap, then pass them, they make no attempt to protect their position. I think there needs to be a four or five personalities that inhabit the AI, that are randomly placed in each car at the start of a race, from aggressive (not reckless) to conservative in it's driving style. In endurance races where it down to the last laps & the AI is in lets say 2nd position, comes upon lap traffic, it should want to make more aggressive move to pass, than AI that's in 10th position if it wants to win.

Randomness on starts is needed.

One thing that is needed, is either standing grid starts or two row rolling starts that force the AI to take positions. I want the AI to make different moves off the start, not the same each race.

I want the AI to challenge me, not through speed, but competing with me for position.

 

[Devedander]

I am not up to snuff on my GT racing obviously, but I thought:

The Porsche and the Vette were in different classes so weren't really reacing each other (ie the porsche isn't going to loose a place because the vette gets ahead of him)

And as such

The porsche is supposed to let the vette pass at a time when it doesn't negatively effect the porsche so the vette can keep doing it's thing unhampered?

Also are they allowed to just jump back and forth on lines like that? I thought there was a limit on how many times you could switch/protect a driving line?

Seemed the porsche was kind of dirty and taking advantage of the courses twistiness to mess with the vette...

Back on topic, I don't like revenge AI because it's hard to know what deserves revenge and what doesn't (as is shown by that video). If everytime impact occurs I get the wrath of an AI car it's gonna be really unpleasant to play....

 

[Smoke&Slide]

You know in fighting games, when developers ask athletes to wear their equipment for recording body movements, would it be possible to do add a real racing driver skill to the AI ?.Second thoughts i guess would cost KY a fortune.

 

[Devedander]

You know in fighting games, when developers ask athletes to wear their equipment for recording body movements, would it be possible to do record their driving skills to the AI ?.Second thoughts i guess would cost KY a fortune.

You are kidding right?

There is no such thing as mocap for thought process...

 

[torontoml]

I am not up to snuff on my GT racing obviously, but I thought:

The Porsche and the Vette were in different classes so weren't really reacing each other (ie the porsche isn't going to loose a place because the vette gets ahead of him)

And as such

The porsche is supposed to let the vette pass at a time when it doesn't negatively effect the porsche so the vette can keep doing it's thing unhampered?

Also are they allowed to just jump back and forth on lines like that? I thought there was a limit on how many times you could switch/protect a driving line?

Seemed the porsche was kind of dirty and taking advantage of the courses twistiness to mess with the vette...

Back on topic, I don't like revenge AI because it's hard to know what deserves revenge and what doesn't (as is shown by that video). If everytime impact occurs I get the wrath of an AI car it's gonna be really unpleasant to play....

No they, the vettes, used to be GT1, but I believe that class has been removed and as a result the vettes joined the GT2 class which is the same class as the porsches.

 

[IsmokeGT]

Anyone defending the Porsche must read this twice- HE ran the VETTE off the road FIRST!
Also, going into the chicane he blocked the vette by WEAVING, several times! The Porsche was out classed and out driven.

 

[sumbrownkid]

Why didn't IMSA strip the class win from the Porsche, and points from the Corvette?

 

[Devedander]

Anyone defending the Porsche must read this twice- HE ran the VETTE off the road FIRST!
Also, going into the chicane he blocked the vette by WEAVING, several times! The Porsche was out classed and out driven.

I agree... it looked dirty all over and the way the vette started to pull away after the illegal pit exit jump... I think that says something there...

 

[LongbowX]

Someone actually watched the video! The Porsche made several blocks that would not be in line with GTP's OLR. Not only did he block, he pushed him off the track! Then he crashed him! It was fun to watch until is it was obvious the Porsche had no intent on a clean, fair race.

All that said, I would rather race a guy like that over AI any day.

I didn't just watch the video, I watched the whole race. To be fair, there was lots of rubbing and rough stuff between them before the "final incident." The pressing against the wall (since the Corvette was already running close to wall anyway) was a bit excessive however. And I agree, that is way more intense than racing any AI...

Anyone defending the Porsche must read this twice- HE ran the VETTE off the road FIRST!
Also, going into the chicane he blocked the vette by WEAVING, several times! The Porsche was out classed and out driven.

He did, but as I said - it was very hard racing between the two. Running the person off is sometimes what happens in the course of racing. It wasn't very much, either.

I am not up to snuff on my GT racing obviously, but I thought:

The Porsche and the Vette were in different classes so weren't really reacing each other (ie the porsche isn't going to loose a place because the vette gets ahead of him)

And as such

The porsche is supposed to let the vette pass at a time when it doesn't negatively effect the porsche so the vette can keep doing it's thing unhampered?

Also are they allowed to just jump back and forth on lines like that? I thought there was a limit on how many times you could switch/protect a driving line?

Seemed the porsche was kind of dirty and taking advantage of the courses twistiness to mess with the vette...

Back on topic, I don't like revenge AI because it's hard to know what deserves revenge and what doesn't (as is shown by that video). If everytime impact occurs I get the wrath of an AI car it's gonna be really unpleasant to play....

No they, the vettes, used to be GT1, but I believe that class has been removed and as a result the vettes joined the GT2 class which is the same class as the porsches.

You are correct, the Corvettes and the Porsche are in the same class. They switched after Le Mans.

Totally disagree. The stunt that the Vette pulled earlier in the race by using the pit-lane was remedied by letting the Porsche past. The bump in the last corner was a minor racing incident - heat of the moment thing as they were both racing hard. The fact that the Vette spun out IN FRONT of the Porsche shows that the Vette made his move, had the speed, was working his way past, and out of spite the Porsche forced him all the way into the wall. No wonder the Vette lost control. Totally unsportsmanlike - couldn't use his own skill and car to hold off the Vette so he uses the pit wall...

I recommend this discussion continue here: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=101814

This thread is supposed to be talking about the AI.

 

[IsmokeGT]

Running the person off is sometimes what happens in the course of racing.

That is a terrible arguement. Why? Because rubbing and running someone off the road are two different things. Putting someone's life in harms way is a little different than rubbing. And when he gets what is coming to him, he again puts his life in danger.

At the BELOW post- I know.

 

[torontoml]

That is a terrible arguement. Why? Because rubbing and running someone off the road are two different things. Putting someone's life in harms way is a little different than rubbing. And when he gets what is coming to him, he again puts his life in danger.

I think he meant when he forced him into the dirt a few times, not the final crash.

 

[LongbowX]

That is a terrible arguement. Why? Because rubbing and running someone off the road are two different things. Putting someone's life in harms way is a little different than rubbing. And when he gets what is coming to him, he again puts his life in danger.

I think he meant when he forced him into the dirt a few times, not the final crash.

Thank you torontoml, that is what I meant. Sometimes running the person wide happens. Usually when running someone wide of a corner, it doesn't result in an accident because both were trying to make the exit - and the other person (usually unintentionally) got in their way and forced them to put 2 wheels off. I was not talking about the final events that led to the crash.

Argh. The topic, I'm sorry thread God.

 

[Context]

If we got something like this...

... I think my head would explode.

Amazing video, loved it, and i hope to god that there will be time of day in GT5, loved the time of day and weather in this video hope i can race in it.

 

[Tenacious D]

50% AI complaints are because people are poor players. I mean how can you expect to have clean race in simulation game if you do not have what it takes to drive hard and clean. That is of course understandable as it is not easy to control racing car with freaking game controller

Exactly! People praise Forza's AI, but when I raced my rides last week for photoshots, the bots used me for a brake, ramming me in the rear half the time. FIVE restarts in order to get the turns and angles I wanted.

People praise Ferrari Challenge's AI, but they behave very much like Forza's bots, and seeing as it looks like FC uses the FM2 engine, I'm not surprised.

People praise GTR's AI, but chicanes become a demolition derby as cars grind each other off the track.

People who complain about Prologue's AI are ignoring a LOT of flaws in their pet games. No AI is good enough.

 

[RedSuinit]

Anyone defending the Porsche must read this twice- HE ran the VETTE off the road FIRST!
Also, going into the chicane he blocked the vette by WEAVING, several times! The Porsche was out classed and out driven.

If you're referring to the incident at 2:00 where the Vette went around the OUTSIDE of the Ford GT! That was a stupid and risky move by the Vette, the Porsche simply held his line, and the Vette didn't back off. The Vette stuck his nose into the line of the Porsche, and the Porsche held his line. That is the VETTES fault, NOT the Porsches. Also, the Vette hit the Porsche LONG before the incident at 2:00...

It's called driving DEFENSIVELY!

EDIT: Even if you're talking about the incident at 7:45 same thing, the Porsche held his line he did NOT turn into the Vette. So it's STILL the Vettes fault.

 

[Spec M]

I agree with the first few post on pg. 1.
I dont think the AI coming behind me and punting me for revenge is fit for this genre or real life.
In the professional road racing today you rarely see drivers intentionally causing harm to each other (with the exception of NASCAR) but thats an entirely different story and so are their standards of professionalism. More to reality I would like to see the AI improve by being more defensive and unpredictable with me as well as the other vehicles on the track.

I want to see the AI defend the inside of the apex and also block on the straights when necessary in oppose to following the same line for the entire session.
Basically it would be phenominal to see the AI vehicles conflict with themselves.
Example: fith and sixth place battling for position and trading place numerous of times throughout the session.
This would give me an even better reason to take time and watch the replay besides looking at my own performance.
Even add more to the realism, the AI making mistakes under pressure every now and then as well as make human mistakes would be amazing.

P.S. On the subject of the vid posted by paskowitz, the following was my actual youtube response:

The Vette made alot stupid and agressive moves. He got what he deserved, and you cant expect Berg to let the vet punt him in the rear in the last corner of the last lap and stroll on by.

Phenominal driving by Bergmeister (#45 Porsche) for keeping his composure under pressure from a reckless driver like the Vette's. It takes alot of experience and nerve I can imagine.

 

[TokyoDrift]

I dunno, I think the Vette didn't need to punt him into the final turn, thats not racing. He was too far back to make the pass, should've accepted it and finished 2nd.

The punt was a minor accidental nudge. Let's say he didn't nudge him, and out-braked him to perfection, right on his tail. He had every right to make a move coming out of that corner. This was 100% due to unsportsman driving by the Porsche.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

All and all I would say it was just good hard "racin". They were both going for the win.

After the bump by the vette in the last corner, he should have known the Porsche would take him to the wall on the approach to the finish.

He shouldn't have run him into the wall but the vette shouldn't have hit him in the last corner either.

Would the Porsche have done it anyway, without the bump?

Only Bergmeister knows for sure.



To comment on topic, there seems to be a lot of complaints about GT4 AI. Other than when you clearly have position, and the AI is insistent on running the racing line, whether your in it or not, isn't the greatest but I would rather have some degree of predictability than not.

Playing NFS Shift of late the AI is very unpredictable at times, alowing you to pass cleanly at times and wrecking you at other times or ramming you in the corner.

I never really care too much what the AI does, I just proceed with beating them, whatever it takes. I pretty much race them like they race me.
Although this can degenerate into a wreck-fest sometimes, so ultimately once past them its on to the next one.


I hate to give credit to EA for anything but some of the NASCAR games they did, had the best AI I've raced against in a console racing game.