So... I'm going to ask!

[Picc84]

So yeah, I always wanted to know why My Fathers 02' Dodge Ram 1500 shifts at like 2-2500 revs. I dont understand, its so low! The redline is like, 7 so I just dont understand? Is that because its geared down for toque or what?

 

[bennyrrr]

better fuel economy

 

[Sage]

Why would you want to shift any higher than you need to? That’s just a waste of fuel. An auto will always calculate how much haste you need (depending on how hard you’re pushing the accelerator), then try to short-shift as much as it can get away with.

Heck, if I have enough torque for condition, I’ll shift at 2500 rpm in my M3.

 

[1X83Z]

When you don't floor it it doesn't shift at peak power in order to maximize comfort and fuel economy.

When you DO floor it, it will shift at or near peak power in order to maximize acceleration.

The entire point of the automatic transmission is to do it for you - not flooring it means you're just driving normally; a guy with a manual under those conditions would shift early so the automatic does too, in order to emulate the manual. If you are flooring it, you want to maximize acceleration so a guy with a manual would shift at peak power - so the automatic does that too. Unfortunately the issue is the automatic doesn't always KNOW what you want to do next whereas with the manual you control your destiny, so it ALWAYS knows.

However automatic > manual in all cases.

If you're me.

 

[V1P3R]

Why do they say you get better gas mileage in a stick then?

 

[MistaX]

I shift at 2000 even in the Mustang usually. If I really felt like it I can cut it down to 1500, but there's a slight risk of lugging so it's a bit pointless.


DWA don't listen to Doug about transmissions, he thinks automatic is superior to manual in every situation.

 

[V1P3R]

I'd shoot myself on princible of even WANTING to drive an auto...

So M5 you'd get a Vette with an auto? wow...

 

[JCE]

So yeah, I always wanted to know why My Fathers 02' Dodge Ram 1500 shifts at like 2-2500 revs. I dont understand, its so low! The redline is like, 7 so I just dont understand? Is that because its geared down for toque or what?

Trucks are designed for pulling and hauling which needs torque--which is always available in the lower rev range.

Why do they say you get better gas mileage in a stick then?

2 reasons really. Most semi-older automatics were 4spd boxes while most semi-older manual transmissions were 5spd boxes--therefore more gears means you can have a taller final gear (5th [aka Overdrive] in this case) which equals less RPM which equals less gas used which equals better MPG. In Europe's and Japan's case subsitute 5spd auto and 6spd manual respectively. And the second reason manual boxes are better than auto boxes for gas mileage is you have more control over your revs and where you shift in a manual so if you wanted to poodle along never going past 1500RPM you'd get great gas mileage--but you'd kill yourself for having to go so slow.

My response is crude yes, but gets the point across.

 

[YSSMAN]

So M5 you'd get a Vette with an auto? wow...

Actually, and I'm not joking (being the Corvette guy I am), the 6-speed Automatic in the Corvette these days isn't a bad idea after-all. It still allows for a full manual override if you wish, but the big problem (like JCE mentioned) is the power losses and the effect it has on the fuel economy. You only get knocked a few points with the MPG when you check the 6L80E box, but the power losses I believe are another 10 BHP or more over the T56, which is a disappointment.

 

[1X83Z]

Why do they say you get better gas mileage in a stick then?

A couple reasons. First, as I mentioned, the automatic doesn't always know what you're doing next while the manual does. So, the automatic may not have the greatest idea about what gear to be in, or downshift to, or be in next - and that may cause unnecessary increased engine speed which would lead to worse fuel economy. Whereas with a manual you can ALWAYS keep the revs down if you wish to, and thus keep down engine speed, and thus increase economy.

Another major reason is that most automatics have fewer gears than manuals, which leads both to better fuel economy and to better acceleration. I presume, in addition, the torque converter requires fuel or some sort of power which the clutch doesn't require, which would detract from an automatic's economy further.

Picc84 if you want an answer to your question on more than just paper, do this: get a manual car and only shift at redlines. My guess is that on 25mph roads you'll be doing about that speed at about 5500RPM in 1st and the car will be noisy, lurchy, awkward, and inefficient. However if you shifted long before that you could stick it in 3rd or 4th at that speed, as I do, and keep the RPMs at around 1500 - no lurches, no inefficiency. It'll make perfect sense.

So M5 you'd get a Vette with an auto? wow...

Yes, but only if it was a newer model (since only the newer ones have manumatic) and really I'd never, ever buy a Corvette. My true feeling is that clutchless manual - aka SMT or F1 or SMG - is the best sort of transmission but those are uncommon. So, manumatic - aka Tiptronic or AutoStick - is the next best thing.

 

[V1P3R]

manumatic.. ?

More like wannabe Manual since they can't drive one.

 

[Sage]

My true feeling is that clutchless manual - aka SMT or F1 or SMG - is the best sort of transmission

DSG. Sure, it’s a bit heavy and weighty and expensive right now, but I think somewhere down the line it’s going to be a very popular transmission choice.

 

[Wolfe]

I presume, in addition, the torque converter requires fuel or some sort of power which the clutch doesn't require, which would detract from an automatic's economy further.

Kinda. Torque converters use a fluid coupling between the engine and transmission (one side spins, causing the viscous fluid inside to spin, which causes the other side to spin), which is a quite inefficient method of transferring power compared to the clutch and flywheel of a normal manual. Most autotragic transmissions have "lockers" that lock the transmission to the engine once you've got up to speed (so that you aren't riding the torque converter while maintaining a constant speed), but that doesn't keep the engine from using more RPM and more power than a manual in acceleration.

 

[1X83Z]

manumatic.. ?

More like wannabe Manual since they can't drive one.

I would rather shoot myself than use a clutch unless I had to. Fortunately Audi recognizes this attitude and supplied a five-speed automatic with Tiptronic which offers no drawbacks versus a manual (in fact, the EPA-rated combined fuel economy was the same regardless of transmission, as is the number of gears).

I have just as much fun as manual owners and I can talk on my phone too!

DSG. Sure, it’s a bit heavy and weighty and expensive right now, but I think somewhere down the line it’s going to be a very popular transmission choice.

I don't think it'll expand too much beyond performance-oriented vehicles. You'll see it on more stuff like A4s in the future but in the end it's a bit complicated and still requires a bit too much work for most day-to-day drivers.

 

[Wolfe]

Tiptronic...offers no drawbacks versus a manual.

...except for inferior throttle response, laggy shifts, the inability to skip gears, and the complete lack of the enjoyment you get from rowing your own gears, rev-matching yourself, and controlling that important link between the transmisison and engine with a well-trained left foot.

At least DSG gets rid of the first two.

I have just as much fun as manual owners and I can talk on my phone too!

No, you don't have as much fun as us, and I can talk on my phone too.

I don't think it'll expand too much beyond performance-oriented vehicles. You'll see it on more stuff like A4s in the future but in the end it's a bit complicated and still requires a bit too much work for most day-to-day drivers.

It's already available on "lower-end" Volkswagens. And how does it require too much work?? It has a buttery-smooth automatic mode.

 

[Sage]

[…DSG] still requires a bit too much work for most day-to-day drivers.

You do know it has a fully-automatic mode, right?

 

[1X83Z]

...except for inferior throttle response, laggy shifts, the inability to skip gears, and the complete lack of the enjoyment you get from rowing your own gears, rev-matching yourself, and controlling that important link between the transmisison and engine with a well-trained left foot.

Wellll....

We could fight about this all day but I might as well mention. I don't know why you think throttle response is inferior. If I hold the car in, say, second gear at, say, 35mph and stomp on the throttle, it hangs out exactly where a manual would hang out and accelerates just like a manual one would. I'm not sure why that would be affected by my Tiptronic transmission.

Laggy shifts is another point with which I disagree. Trust me - I've raced several manual vehicles that should be faster than mine and they'll pull away until it comes time to shift. Yes, my shifts lag versus a super-awesome driver, but versus 99% of the population - including many just 'awesome' drivers, it's better. And again trust me - it's a lot quicker than if I did it myself.

Inability to skip gears is a huge problem I have with Tiptronic that seems to be remedied by Audi and no other brands. Audi has something called 'kickdown mode' which is beyond flooring the gas pedal. If you floor it and still need more power, push harder and you're in kickdown mode which automatically drops the transmission down to the lowest possible gear (in both Tiptronic and regular mode). This is great for highway passing when I'm coasting along in 5th and suddenly want to run by someone - it's just like downshifting from 5th to 3rd on a manual (in fact in those situations it does drop from 5th to 3rd). However as you may know I have a part-time job driving for a rental company and no other brand (whose cars we rent - ie all non-premium brands except Honda) has seemed to figure this out. If you floor anything in Tiptronic it remains in that gear and you're stuck pressing the minus button until you reach the one that would provide the acceleration you're looking for. Frustrating, but again, Audi's Tiptronic handles it.

Lack of enjoyment is a matter of opinion. The enjoyment one gets from rowing gears is, in my view, completely ruined by the discomfort of using a clutch, which is why I think SMG would be best if it used not paddles but a lever like manuals do - just without the damn clutch. Regardless, your point is valid for that one, but I think the clutch negates it.

Why can't I rev-match using Tiptronic?

No, you don't have as much fun as us, and I can talk on my phone too.

No using clutch = more fun!!

It's already available on "lower-end" Volkswagens. And how does it require too much work?? It has a buttery-smooth automatic mode.

Yeah but Volkswagens are performance-oriented vehicles. I don't think a day will come when you see it on things such as the Ford Fusion. I don't think it requires too much work - but your average female will.

EDIT: (to Sage also) remember, the 'fully automatic mode' is something you must select - it is not the default setting. As such, it is simply going to complicate things. You guys driving manual performance vehicles (and Sage) too often forget the needs and desires of the regular consumer. A few weeks ago I took a female friend out in my Audi. After I used Tiptronic for the whole evening (and bumping into her leg which is annoying) she asked me what it was for. She told me she "once" noticed it on her mom's car (a year-old Jetta) and had "no idea" what it did. Remember, we're speaking about the general public here.

Yeah, I tossed the 'and Sage' thing in there as a jab.

 

[Wolfe]

I don't know why you think throttle response is inferior...

A manual transmission car won't rev up and then accelerate. It accelerates while the engine is increasing RPM. Also, especially in the higher RPM range, getting on or off the throttle produces a jerky but crisp response from the car -- it's not exactly smooth, but it enhances the feeling of control you have over the car.

Anything with a torque converter sorta wallows up and down the tachometer.

Laggy shifts is another point with which I disagree...

...trust me - it's a lot quicker than if I did it myself.

Er, sorry, I should have been more clear. By "lag," I didn't mean the overall shift time. Autotragic transmissions shift gears very quickly. What I meant is that in manumatic mode, you pull the lever/paddle/whatever.........aaaand then the car shifts.

Inability to skip gears is a huge problem I have with Tiptronic that seems to be remedied by Audi and no other brands...

There are always exceptions I guess.

Lack of enjoyment is a matter of opinion. The enjoyment one gets from rowing gears is, in my view, completely ruined by the discomfort of using a clutch, which is why I think SMG would be best if it used not paddles but a lever like manuals do - just without the damn clutch. Regardless, your point is valid for that one, but I think the clutch negates it.

Oh it's definitely a matter of opinion. I happen to believe that there isn't any discomfort to using a clutch, and I wouldn't buy a car with a torque converter even if I lived in a highly congested city like Chicago.

Why can't I rev-match using Tiptronic?

Are you doing it with your own feet, working the pedals to produce a smooth downshift? That's where the satisfaction comes from, IMO. Otherwise it's just like playing Gran Turismo and hitting "L2."

Yeah but Volkswagens are performance-oriented vehicles.

Er...

EDIT: (to Sage also) remember, the 'fully automatic mode' is something you must select - it is not the default setting. As such, it is simply going to complicate things.

Is it? I honestly don't know. It couldn't be that much more difficult than moving from "P" to "D."

 

[Gil]

IN point of fact, While a manual is loads more fun to drive in most conditions than an auto.
When you commute 37-40 miles one way, and traffic can be stop and go for a lot of that in either direction, A manual is a pain in the.....KNEE...for someone with gout (such as myself) or with a few years on.

Also, by all reports, the clutch in my dream car (Infiniti G35) is so damn touchy that the "experts" find the car with the manual to be nearly undrivable...Which I don't get (the G is basically the same car under the skin as the 350Z, which gets rave reviews)

The point that I'm getting at is that some of us LOVE to drive a stick, but it isn't always the most pleasant choice, or the best alternative for the commute.

I have to agree with M5, for me a manu-matic would be the best of both world. Near manual performance, no nasty cramps or rebelious knees at the end of the drive.

 

[Picc84]

Ok, so its comforting, etc. But isent that bad for the engine EVENTUALLY?! like.. bogging it?

Or am I spendingway to much time on my KTM 125 2stroke?

 

[1X83Z]

A manual transmission car won't rev up and then accelerate. It accelerates while the engine is increasing RPM. Also, especially in the higher RPM range, getting on or off the throttle produces a jerky but crisp response from the car -- it's not exactly smooth, but it enhances the feeling of control you have over the car.

Indeed although I suggest you drive a Tiptronic-equipped vehicle - we get the same jerky feeling high in the rev range as we have control over what gear we decide to be in. In fact in current Nissan Altimas the jerk is so pronounced (because high in the range when you're in a gear or two lower than you should be the engine brakes for you) that the car rises and falls a ridiculous amount if you're in a lower gear. To the point where I don't even use Tiptronic in the things. In my car it's less pronounced but very obvious no less. I wonder if it's as obvious to a passenger?

Regardless your point is well taken and very correct for non-Tiptronic automatics however you need to understand: even I wouldn't want to drive one of those again.

Er, sorry, I should have been more clear. By "lag," I didn't mean the overall shift time. Autotragic transmissions shift gears very quickly. What I meant is that in manumatic mode, you pull the lever/paddle/whatever.........aaaand then the car shifts.

Understood. It definitely takes some time but again I think it'd be quicker than me putting my foot down and moving the lever. The actual lag time between moving the lever and switching gears is pretty small.

Oh it's definitely a matter of opinion. I happen to believe that there isn't any discomfort to using a clutch, and I wouldn't buy a car with a torque converter even if I lived in a highly congested city like Chicago.

Agree to disagree on this point! And of course I think we can both concede that opinions vary here and, naturally, neither of us is wrong.

Are you doing it with your own feet, working the pedals to produce a smooth downshift? That's where the satisfaction comes from, IMO. Otherwise it's just like playing Gran Turismo and hitting "L2."

Indeed it is, but again, I'd rather hit L2 than have to move my left foot around all the time AND hit L2. Sometimes you just want to cruise, ya know?

Er...

Hey I drove one of those and let me tell you - it handles sharply, it's damn quick, and it's a lot more sporty than much of its competition!

Is it? I honestly don't know. It couldn't be that much more difficult than moving from "P" to "D."

For most drivers it's a world away - the equivalent of finding out what those scary + - buttons do to the right of "D".

Ok, so its comforting, etc. But isent that bad for the engine EVENTUALLY?! like.. bogging it?

No it is not bad for the engine eventually - it's what the engine and transmission were intended to do. Really - drive a manual car and don't ever shift until it hits redline. You'll see why you don't want to do that.

 

[Tornado]

Hey I drove one of those and let me tell you - it handles sharply, it's damn quick, and it's a lot more sporty than much of its competition...

And its bought by more hairdressers and secretaries than there actually are.
Besides, much of its competition is essentially the Sebring.

Really - drive a manual car and don't ever shift until it hits redline. You'll see why you don't want to do that.

Here's a hint: My dad did it once in his Neon for a full day just to test out his new exhaust and he had to order a new clutch the next day.

In any case, I'm kinda on the fence. I hate hate hate normal slushboxes (no allowable input from the driver), and I like the ability to shift myself. However, I don't always like having to use the clutch every time I shift, so I like automated manuals quite a bit (but I also hate wheel mounted shift controls, be it paddles or buttons). I wouldn't want one as an only car unless I had a second car with a stick, but what have you.

 

[1X83Z]

And its bought by more hairdressers and secretaries than there actually are.
Besides, much of its competition is essentially the Sebring.

And the Solara. Wondering if anyone would catch that.

In any case, I'm kinda on the fence. I hate hate hate normal slushboxes (no allowable input from the driver), and I like the ability to shift myself. However, I don't always like having to use the clutch every time I shift, so I like automated manuals quite a bit (but I also hate wheel mounted shift controls, be it paddles or buttons). I wouldn't want one as an only car unless I had a second car with a stick, but what have you.[/SIZE][/FONT]

I can think of very few manumatics where you can't shift on the gear lever. In fact, the majority of them don't allow shifting on the steering wheel. Oddly my car has both, though I almost never use the wheel buttons.

 

[Tornado]

I can think of very few manumatics where you can't shift on the gear lever. In fact, the majority of them don't allow shifting on the steering wheel.

Yeah, but current trends (I guess it is the "in thing") is to put some form of shifting (usually poorly done) on the wheel to try to make the car seem more "sporty," completely forgoing the much more natural and easy to use stick.

Oddly my car has both, though I almost never use the wheel buttons.

God, wheel buttons are the worst. I hate them more than paddles.

 

[1X83Z]

Yeah, but current trends (I guess it is the "in thing") is to put some form of shifting (usually poorly done) on the wheel to try to make the car seem more "sporty," completely forgoing the much more natural and easy to use stick.

I'm not sure about that - nearly all the rentals I drive - even the very newest ones - continue to have it either mounted on the bottom, or both - but usually mounted on the bottom. Examples - new Nissan Altima, Mazda 3, new Infiniti G35, Chrysler 300...

The worst are the GM vehicles which have a "+/-" button on the side of the gear lever. Don't even get me started on how bad their manumatic transmission is.

God, wheel buttons are the worst. I hate them more than paddles.

They're convenient for when one hand is on your passenger's leg.

 

[Tornado]

I'm not sure about that - nearly all the rentals I drive - even the very newest ones - continue to have it either mounted on the bottom, or both - but usually mounted on the bottom.

Yeah, but those are rentals.

They're convenient for when one hand is on your passenger's leg.

Paddles would be too, and they are less annoying. Besides, you shouldn't be...um...yeah...when you are trying to shift (or, rather, vice versa). Just let it shift it self.

 

[1X83Z]

Yeah, but those are rentals.

Welllllll...

Aside from the Mitsubishi Lancer and, I presume, the Grand Prix, what vehicles are you referring to? I'm really pretty sure the gear levers are staying the main source for manumatic upshifts/downshifts.

Paddles would be too, and they are less annoying. Besides, you shouldn't be...um...yeah...when you are trying to shift (or, rather, vice versa). Just let it shift it self.

Sometimes you don't want to knock it back into gear as that would be a distraction.

It is also convenient when you are taking a photo of a car and you forget it's in manual. Much easier than to move around and shift.

 

[YSSMAN]

The worst are the GM vehicles which have a "+/-" button on the side of the gear lever. Don't even get me started on how bad their manumatic transmission is.

It largely depends on which model you have when that occurs. I know it was on the previous Malibu, I believe on the G6, and I know its on the Lambada crossovers, but many of the cars are moving to paddles now. The Corvette uses a paddle shift, the Aura uses paddle shift on the XR, and I'm almost certain that the '08 CTS does as well.

IMO, the Malibus I've driven with the buttons wasn't horrible. I mean for God's sake, how many people do you actually think are going to be getting in their Malibu LTs and racing around town with that 4T45E? Its a good way to "choose" what gear you're in, and the good news is that all of the GM transmissions will actually hold the gear until you change it... But, they weren't doing this for performance reasons.

I personally liked the setup on the Grand Prix GTP Comp G, using the button/paddles on the wheel. That to me made sense for the most part, but just like the Malibu, there is only so much fun that can be had with four cogs at your disposal...

---

In all, manumatic transmissions are just a clever way of convincing drivers that they are "in control" of the car, when in many cases they are not. While you do get more enjoyment out of the transmission than otherwise sliding the gear from 'P' to 'D', it by no means is any kind of substitute for a true manual transmission, no matter how "comfortable" it may be.

Granted of course transmissions such as Ferrari's F1 or VAG's DSG offer the best balance between a full automatic and a full manual (well, they technically are manual boxes anyway...), they would be about as close as I get to a slushbox for as long as my body can handle the far-left pedal. The good news is that they shift at the proper speed, and furthermore don't sap as much power as their slushbox counterparts. Of course, poor programing can ruin it, case in point BMW's SMG.

To me, there isn't anything hard about using a manual transmission, and furthermore, noting having a manual in something like a Porsche or a Ferrari should be a crime. Yes, I may have a more difficult time drinking, eating, or talking on the cell phone... But you shouldn't be doing that, no matter what, while you're driving anyway.

The good news is that sequential manual transmission technology is becoming cheaper and easier to deal with, and many companies are latching on... A very good thing. The problem is, the true manual transmission continues to die here in North America, and thats a problem. I often think that the Volkswagen and BMW drivers, at least in the US, will be the last people to actually option their regular cars like that in the coming years... But then again, most people who drive German cars are a bit crazy anyway...

...I'm still holding out for my MKIV Jetta GLS 1.8T Wagon with the 5M, but I'm having a helluva time finding the damn thing...

 

[V1P3R]

I have just as much fun as manual owners and I can talk on my phone too!

: sigh...: wow...

No using clutch = more fun!!

No using clutch = you a wussie

 

[1X83Z]

IMO, the Malibus I've driven with the buttons wasn't horrible.

I have driven multiple vehicles with these ridiculous transmissions: the GMC Acadia, Saturn Outlook, new Saturn Vue, and indeed the Chevrolet Malibu. My issue is, aside from the ridiculously idiotic button on the side of the transmission lever: the transmission displays the gear you select regardless of whether it is actually in that gear or not. This is the most idiotic, inane, confusing and STUPID thing I have EVER seen in my entire life. The transmission could be displaying a '1' on the gauge cluster and damn it you might be in fifth gear and you would be absolutely guessing as to which gear you were in the entire time. How is that a step in ANY direction except backwards as these things go? It is absolutely ridiculous and counterintuitive like most of General Motors' ideas.

To me, there isn't anything hard about using a manual transmission, and furthermore, noting having a manual in something like a Porsche or a Ferrari should be a crime. Yes, I may have a more difficult time drinking, eating, or talking on the cell phone... But you shouldn't be doing that, no matter what, while you're driving anyway.

Hells naw! Phone + driving is the way god intended it. Come on now Brad!

Really though - why should having a clutchless tranny in a F-car be a crime? The F1 tranny is faster dammit! Unless you mean any non-manual or SMG in which case I somewhat agree though the grand touring models (456) should probably be available with an automatic in order to suit the driver's needs. I'm not sure, though, that we'll ever see another fully automatic Ferrari (now that the F1 transmission has an automatic mode).

: sigh...: wow...

That was (obviously) a joke but with comebacks like 'you a wussie' I can understand that you didn't catch that.