So So GTO

[RyosukeFCDS]

That's the only thing you can measure. I believe that the Pontiac GTO handles better than a Jaguar XK8. Once I say that, Driftster would probably just say, "naw... the XK8 handle's much better", despite the fact that he's probably never driven either vehicle. So I stick to horsepower.

Whenever i look at any car i use the full vehicle specs to judge it's performance and how it will handle. Most manufacturers give this info out.

Just a thought, cause some people think powers all that matters.

 

[1X83Z]

Whenever i look at any car i use the full vehicle specs to judge it's performance and how it will handle.

How could you use specs to judge how it will handle?

 

[West Side Ninja]

Until then, I asked you to name any other car that gave you 350bhp for $32500. You, of course, can't, and dodged the question entirely. Truthfully, Driftster, the GTO is an unrivaled performance buy for its price, no matter what your ill-educated opinion dictates.

You didn't see my answer dammit. '04 Ford Cobra. 390 hp, 34k.

 

[ledhed]

I was able to take a GTO out today for a test ride. The styling is a bit subdued and the interior has some low quality pieces, but the optional buckets I sat in are great and after you get moving the styling becomes alot less relevant. This cars just boogies , the handling is alot more refined than any Mustang I ever drove except for the last SVT. It reminds me of the old Thunderbirds if I had to compare. The power is on like a switch and constant all through the rev range, unfortunately there was way too many cars on the road to get to hysterical but based on the short highway ride its much more confortable than the Mustang. All things being equal though they are different enough so that I cant see someone who is looking to buy a Mustang GT jumping into the GTO . The Mustang is way more brute force in both handling , sounds and acceleration. The styling is another area that I think the 'stang comes out ahead, especially when you consider the price difference.
Nice car , but not for me.

 

[1X83Z]

You didn't see my answer dammit. '04 Ford Cobra. 390 hp, 34k.

The question asked was:

"for $32500, can you name any new car with 350bhp?"

Your answer included a vehicle which missed the price boundary by not $1500 but $2400: the Ford Mustang SVT Cobra starts at $34900. I'll grant you, it's a great value - my favourite - but it's not $32500 (the Mustang Cobra was the reason I phrased the question as I did).

 

[West Side Ninja]

Omg, the styling of the '05 mustangs. WOW. So sweet.

 

[RyosukeFCDS]

How could you use specs to judge how it will handle?

It's how i judge cars, look at their dimensions, their wheelbase, wheels, tyres, weights, torque distribution if 4wd, weight distribution, drivetrain, gear ratios, i'm sure a lot of other stuff i've forgotten too.
That's just how i can do it.

 

[1X83Z]

It's how i judge cars, look at their dimensions, their wheelbase, wheels, tyres, weights, torque distribution if 4wd, weight distribution, drivetrain, gear ratios, i'm sure a lot of other stuff i've forgotten too.
That's just how i can do it.

Well, I've got to be honest with you then. I love checking out specs on paper. I'm Mister "Checking out Specs on Paper". But handling cannot be measured unless there's a drive involved - period. Hell, you're telling me there's more to performance than price and power and here you are deciding handling capabilities based on gear ratios and weight distribution.

 

[DJM PRODUCTIONS]

M5Power has made some damn good points. [as always] I'm not a huge fan of the new gto, but a guy who lives down the street from me has a red one, The sound it makes is amazing.

 

[RyosukeFCDS]

Well, I've got to be honest with you then. I love checking out specs on paper. I'm Mister "Checking out Specs on Paper". But handling cannot be measured unless there's a drive involved - period. Hell, you're telling me there's more to performance than price and power and here you are deciding handling capabilities based on gear ratios and weight distribution.

I'm not saying you can tell every little bit of how a car will perform from specs, yes driving is better, BUT you can certainly get a very good model for how the car will act if you know what you're looking at.

 

[JohnBM01]

I think at the start of the thread, a phrase mentioned was "...putting performance aside..." So while it's okay to note performance aspects, this is more about judging a car's looks. And the car in question is the Pontiac GTO. When I said it was a nice machine, I meant it. The point raised was that it's not very good in a straight line means it's a real car. It can take on curves. And let's not forget Rhys Millen who races a Pontiac GTO as a drift car. So it can look good sideways as well.

Now allow me to put the following post below to remind you of the GTO's looks:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1176774&postcount=9

Having said that, I want to address a certain situation in case someone comes up with it. I want to address the situation for someone saying that "America couldn't come up with an original design, so they had to rely on a foreign division of General Motors." Well, the Cobra (as in the Shelby) was from AC, but America took it and it's a classic (I love the car with all due respect. Don't hate on me, please!). So what's wrong with Pontiac looking into Holden? Sometimes, competition isn't everything. Sometimes, car companies will want to work with each other. Think of a car company that worked with another car company in an effort to try to come up with wonderful features and capabilities for a car or truck. Pontiac did what it could so that they'd be safe. The most striking thing about it is that it's named after a classic muscle car. But a American Muscle Car based on an Australian ride? So what? Was the latest Chevy Impala a great car based on the 1963 Impala? Hell no. So what's the point of hating on the GTO for that?

 

[JohnBM01]

I tell you. I am American, but even I want to push boundaries a time or two. So let me tell you this. If the GTO ends up being a hot-selling car, who will America have to thank? Pontiac or Holden? Think about that, then come back here when you're willing to respect the car for what it is and its looks rather than b*tch about (sarcastic voice) "oh, it's from Australia...oh, this Australian thingie is named after a really cool muscle car...ooh, it's an Australian car trying to be and look like an American muscle car..."

So you have a choice. Thank GM's efforts for looking into Holden for potentially saving Pontiac's ass, or hate on the new GTO because the real GTOs of then are better. Enter a time machine. Cars and car companies have to learn to evolve to stay competitive. Look at the Nissan Skyline for example. It's been around for quite a while with many models and variations, and look at it today? It's still as competitive and intriguing as it was years ago. Pontiac changed its styling. Away from the all-power looks of the muscle car days, more modern designs came about. And even though cars have changed for better or for worse, does anyone really CARE where it's made from or what damage (if any) it does to the car name given? Look at the Mercury Cougar of 1998. I think it replaced the Ford Probe for what I know, but did anyone compain that it "killed" the Cougar of the past? What if the muscle car Cougar was from England and imported to America? American classic, or import of a classic? For the most part, the GTO is an import that marks the return of a classic American muscle car. Be thankful the car is back, or bash on it as if Australia should pay severely for "ruining" a classic American car. And then, how is the GTO "ruining" the return of an American classic? Sometimes you'll need to look elsewhere to make things work. Until then, I love the looks of this damned car. I'm not going to brag, but I think maybe American cars (GM especially) should look into how to style cars without giving on-lookers horrible faces when looking at it. And I'm talking about the cars of 2001 and up (besides the Trans-Am, Camaro, Corvette, etc). Anyhow, my two cents and more. Nicely-styled car. Kind of like a driver's car embodied in a stylish sports sedan. Think of the GTO as a Dodge Viper embodied in a BMW 3-Series style.

 

[1X83Z]

I tell you. I am American, but even I want to push boundaries a time or two. So let me tell you this. If the GTO ends up being a hot-selling car, who will America have to thank? Pontiac or Holden? Think about that, then come back here when you're willing to respect the car for what it is and its looks rather than b*tch about (sarcastic voice) "oh, it's from Australia...oh, this Australian thingie is named after a really cool muscle car...ooh, it's an Australian car trying to be and look like an American muscle car..."

👍

And, as I said earlier, sourcing the car from Australia is actually the best part of the whole deal because no research & development is needed, so the price is kept down - a must in this class for Pontiac at this time. Plus, the Australian car was perfect - why go to all the trouble of making something new when it would cost more for the consumer, take longer to get to showrooms, and may be only marginally better?

So you have a choice. Thank GM's efforts for looking into Holden for potentially saving Pontiac's ass, or hate on the new GTO because the real GTOs of then are better.

I'm not sure if you know this or not but Holden is simply General Motors' Australian brand - GM operates with about five brands worldwide:

- Opel (Europe)
- Chevrolet (North, South, and Latin America)
- Vauxhall (UK)
- Holden (Australia/New Zealand)
- GM Daewoo (South Korea)

Basically, GM went around on a huge shopping spree some time ago (the most recent of which is GM Daewoo) and rather than re-name every brand "General Motors" or "Chevrolet", GM simply kept the brand names the same in each market. Obviously there are a few more (Pontiac, GMC, Saturn, etc.), but those are the largest brands in each market. GM also sells cars in a large and growing Chinese market, though I can't remember what brand they sell under - though I know Buick is a player and I think GM Daewoo is too.

Look at the Mercury Cougar of 1998. did anyone compain that it "killed" the Cougar of the past?

If no one did, someone surely should've.

I definitely agree with your main points here, John.

 

[JohnBM01]

In Post #14, M5Power said, "Everyone here complains to NO END about current car styling - down to the very details - because cars are too 'radical.' So they go for bland and now they get attacked. I honestly believe that the Mazda 6 is the only car produced after 2000 that everyone here likes - though the know-it-alls of the bunch will remind all of us that "the chrome above the grille looks like a milk mustache." Ha ha ha ha, shut up. There's no way to please you people. Period"

Personally, I like the Mazda 3's looks and style a little better, but the 6 is still quite a nice car. I'm surprised no one said that the grill looks like something out of Acura (in which I would slightly agree). But I don't think the GTO's style is bland. That's like saying the Suzuki Cappucino's styling is bland because it doesn't deserve to LOOK like a pure sportscar. I see the GTO more as a nicely-styled sports sedan. I'll tell you one thing. If Pontiac wanted to make the car look uglier than their Aztek (or however you spell it), they'd do it. If they wanted to make it a contender in class with the Dodge Neon SRT-4, they'd do it. But you can't tell me that a car company chooses to make one of their cars bland. How many car companies do you hear about say they make their cars as lightly styled as possible? Saturn maybe, but who? I like the styling of the GTO even though I wish the Camaro and Firebird/Trans-Am could have been around longer. Or maybe my buddy M5 is right- "there is no way to please you people. PERIOD."

Would you rate me as a know-it-all, M5Power? (^_^)

 

[1X83Z]

How many car companies do you hear about say they make their cars as lightly styled as possible?

It seems to me Chevrolet is going this way - not to intentionally make their cars bland but because they don't want their designs to be controversial in the slightest. Obviously the Corvette and SSR are exceptions (no matter what you think of them, they're statements) but the Corvette and SSR are exceptions in Chevrolet's line anyway - think more along the lines of the Malibu, Equinox, Colorado, Aveo - there's nothing radical there, and nothing beautiful either. Unfortunately for the Equinox the same's true for its spec list, interior design, and performance, and it's one of the more mediocre releases in the "American Revolution."

Would you rate me as a know-it-all, M5Power? (^_^)

I don't know, but I'm beginning to like you more and more ...

 

[West Side Ninja]

The question asked was:

"for $32500, can you name any new car with 350bhp?"

Your answer included a vehicle which missed the price boundary by not $1500 but $2400: the Ford Mustang SVT Cobra starts at $34900. I'll grant you, it's a great value - my favourite - but it's not $32500 (the Mustang Cobra was the reason I phrased the question as I did).

You get about $92 per horsepower with the GTO.

You get about $87 per horsepower with the Cobra.

Choose wisely. For 40 more horsepower, better styling (ya ***** ***** *****), and better horsepower/dollar value, who WOULDN'T pay 2400 more dollars.

 

[1X83Z]

You get about $92 per horsepower with the GTO.

You get about $87 per horsepower with the Cobra.

Choose wisely. For 40 more horsepower, better styling (ya ***** ***** *****), and better horsepower/dollar value, who WOULDN'T pay 2400 more dollars.

I didn't ask for a division problem, I asked for an answer to my question.

I honestly almost put that sentence into my original post but decided against it, instead thinking no-one would be stupid enough to pull out the 'per horsepower' equation when the Mustang SVT Cobra doesn't solve the original question.

Not surprisingly, I overestimated the board once again.

Let me put it to you this way. If you were a human (this is speculation, remember), and you had $33000 straight, you wouldn't be able to get that Mustang, no matter how much money per horsepower it is (invoice is $32100; list is $34900 so it's unlikely) - so you'd be looking to see the best performance car you could get for $33000. And it's the Pontiac GTO, by horsepower. There, I've solved my own question: not one vehicle offers you 350bhp for $32600. This was all in response to the 'bad value' statement by Driftster, so I've clearly proven that, in fact, the thing isn't a bad value.

 

[West Side Ninja]

Wow, save up for like 3 more months. That's what I would do. Or get somthing with less horsepower. Maybe you should rethink this super ego thing? You always throw in technical jargon to try and confuse people which makes you feel intelegent. I don't buy your bull****.

 

[1X83Z]

Wow, save up for like 3 more months. That's what I would do. Or get somthing with less horsepower. Maybe you should rethink this super ego thing? You always throw in technical jargon to try and confuse people which makes you feel intelegent. I don't buy your bull****.

That means I'm right.

 

[West Side Ninja]

How can you be right to a flawed question? I didn't see any small print saying that I couldn't go over the value by _____ amount. Here's a faster/as fast car for less money that has less horsepower, 2004 Evo VIII. 271 hp, starts at around 28k. Just proves that horsepower does not always equal faster.

 

[87chevy]

West Side Ninja, HE IS RIGHT!!!! you just can't bring yourself to say it. It's ridiculous. unlike my argument with him, which is really more of an opinion battle, your argument with him is one based on cold hard facts. and you fail to even answer the quetion, you keep insisting that the Cobra is the answer, when clearly it fails the original question.

the GTO is bland on the outside. not ugly, but definitely not exciting or exotic. i guess, pleasant or conservative would fit it. it is a good deal. most powerful for it's price. but still, i think they coulda designed the outside a little better.


to M5[/i] yeah, all i talked about in the truck thread was looks. and the Titan is definitely something that should have GM truck designers pissing their pants. mechanically, it's still ugly as sin. however, i'd still recommend a used chevy to that guy because, i think his price was limited anyways, and the Titans have not been on the road long enough to see if they have any odd quirks yet. The Chevy is a proven truck.



*side note* i'm proud of this thread, my most successful ever! yay for me!*/side note*

 

[1X83Z]

How can you be right to a flawed question? I didn't see any small print saying that I couldn't go over the value by _____ amount.

Actually, you couldn't go over the value by anything. Hence the value. Otherwise, I'm wrong and I nominate the Porsche Cayenne Turbo - 450bhp. Yeah, I'm over by about $55000, but that's allowed, right?

Here's a faster/as fast car for less money that has less horsepower, 2004 Evo VIII. 271 hp, starts at around 28k. Just proves that horsepower does not always equal faster.

But in this case it does. GTO's quicker and I'm sure it's faster too. And of course, it's got 80 less horsepower than what I wanted. The whole truth to the matter is that nothing for the GTO's price has the GTO's power. Which is the same thing I've said for, about, the last five posts.

mechanically, it's still ugly as sin.

Mechanically? You mean stylistically? I think mechanically it's okay - I love the fact that it's got a 5-speed automatic and, like all good automatic transmissions, when the throttle's full-open it shifts at exactly 4900RPM, its peak power. Which is why I personally prefer automatic - I could shift at 4900RPM when I'm thinking about it, but not with the consistency of the automatic.

 

[JohnBM01]

"...horsepower doesn't always equal faster." -WestSideNinja

The Mazda RX-8 packs 250-something horsepower. Did anyone complain? Well, some said it could have used more torque, but it is still a 4-door sportscar that can still get the job done. Well let me tell you, why do most of us Americans bother with horsepower? I think M5Power was the one who said that the Toyota Camry could get to 60 in 6.9 seconds (correct?). Let me come up with a quote that's pretty common...

"You get what you pay for."

And I'm sure that what M5 is saying is true to the heart. You want a 1970s GTO? Get one and smoke anything that isn't American or at least a horsepower performer and leave us enthusiasts alone. I'll tell you. I know the new GTO may not have the horsepower, but as I said, be thankful it's back. I like this car no matter what anyone says. I'm not saying it's beautiful or alluring, but is possibly GM's nicest offering. Oh yeah, when the Muscle Car era slept with the fishes, what happened to horsepower and performance? More manageable, that's right. The Impala was more of a family sedan than a muscle car with a big motor. So why complain over the GTO because of horsepower? Hey, ANYTHING over or equal to 300 horsepower is good enough. The 350 hp in the new GTO means that you have something more modern. I can't stand some American car fans sometimes. When I learned that horsepower isn't everything, I've began to appreciate cars for road racing talent rather than power and speed. Sure, that helps, but what good is it to have a car that can do nothing but go in a straight line and leave the competition behind? You're not going to win Le Mans or Sebring with that. You want power and speed and handling? Get into an F1 car. Get into an Indy Car. A Champ Car World Series racer is always good. Anything other than the sprint and WoO racers that do ovals and ovals only. Some people can't be pleased I guess... why do I bother, though?

Never mind the Honda Civic... the GTO is the newest most overrated car in America!

 

[1X83Z]

I think M5Power was the one who said that the Toyota Camry could get to 60 in 6.9 seconds (correct?).

Nah - Toyota Solara. Pretty much a spot-on 2-door Camry, though. In fact, when it came out, it was first sold as the Toyota Camry Solara.

 

[TheCracker]

How much horsepower does the Holden/Vauxhall Monaro/Pontiac GTO have in the US?

The Vauxhaul MonaroVXR that we get here in the UK has 387bhp!

As far as i can research - the GTO never had any more than 360bhp as standard, even if your GTO only has 350bhp - surely thats close enough, especially when some of the 70's models only had 185bhp!

And as for looks, only a few GTO models looked half decent - most were just gawky looking. Most looked like 'coupe' or two door versions of the regular sedans - just like the 2004 GTO does.

 

[RyosukeFCDS]

Isn't there an optional one in the UK I saw on top gear that had 450hp, but it was 80k quid.

 

[TheCracker]

Isn't there an optional one in the UK I saw on top gear that had 450hp, but it was 80k quid.

Yes, but i don't think its a 'factory' option - it will be a third party tuner who produces it.

 

[Race Idiot]

Somehow I can't see it being 80K, seeing as the VXR is only 35,000 something with 380bhp, so it costs another 45K to get 70 more bhp I doubt it. I must admit I do like the Vauxhall Monaro it has a certain presence, well compared to the rest of the cars you usually see here. The Normal Monaro is like 330bhp, which for it's price is pretty good in the UK.

 

[///M-Spec]

How much horsepower does the Holden/Vauxhall Monaro/Pontiac GTO have in the US?

It rated at 350 over here, just like the C5.


M

 

[TheCracker]

Somehow I can't see it being 80K, seeing as the VXR is only 35,000 something with 380bhp, so it costs another 45K to get 70 more bhp I doubt it. I must admit I do like the Vauxhall Monaro it has a certain presence, well compared to the rest of the cars you usually see here. The Normal Monaro is like 330bhp, which for it's price is pretty good in the UK.

If you compare the basic Monaro, to the BMW330 clubsport, its an absolute steal. Cheaper, a better performer and rated higher in all the car mags.