Soccer-Mom Showdown: Crowning the Queen of the Mini-Van/MPV Hill

[YSSMAN]

In the spirit of the World Cup (damn you Germany for dissapointing me!), the newest issue of Motor Trend, and our previous SUV vs Van vs Everything else discussion, I say we have a "Battle-Royale" for the top-player in the mini-van market.

Once thought to be dead in the United States, the mini-van market was for the most part left to Honda and Toyota during the 1990s as the American automakers shifted their focus twards large, truck-based SUVs. Although the mini-van's inventors, the Chrysler arm of DaimlerChrysler continued to soldier on with their Caravan and Town and Country models, the Japanese brands quickly overtook the origionators as the Queens of the Soccer-Mom hill.

So how should we do this? Given that mini-vans are sold around the world, should it be a nominate and debate, or should I pick a few and go from there?

Given that I usually forget one model, I will allow those of you to nominate and debate. So, I shall start...

---

My nomination for top Mini-van is indeed the Hyundai Entourage.

Now it certainly isn't the prettiest mini-van available for purchase, but that isn't what it is all about. First of all, the van is cheap. Fully loaded models will barely scratch $30,000 USD out the door, and we are talking about full leather, bucket seats front and middle, etc. It uses a similar seat storage system as Toyota and Honda, and although it lacks the brilliant "Stow and Go" seating found in the Chrysler twins, the Entourage has plenty of functionality.

Added to that, it is actually pleasant to ride and drive. We spent a short ammount of time considering one earlier in the year, and it was quiet and smooth. Granted, it isn't a sports car, but there was feedback through the weel, and plenty of power comming through the 3.8L V6.

The only thing to ever keep me away from buying an Entourage however is the fact that the residual values are for the most part unknown. Hyundais have in the past had some of the worst in the industry, but given their new Toyota-matching build quality and satisfaction, that could have changed. But with their 10 year/ 100,000 mile warrant on the mechanical bits and pieces, you know you are geting a solid deal with this van.

...But then again, there is this:

The Mazda 5

It's small size, cheap price, and overall involving atmosphere makes it a great choise for those who need functionality without losing the nature of a car. The only downside is that the 2.3L I4 is a bit overburdened with weight, especially if the MPV is fully-loaded with folks and gear, and that isn't a good thing. But given that the majority of travels may be done with just one, maybe two or three folks, the MPV is a great choise. But, for just a few bucks more, the Entourage is an attractive option.

 

[Onikaze]

I'm a Mazda kind of guy, so the MPV wins for me.

If I was seriously going to get a Minivan for the woman though, I'd go for a Dodge Grand Caravan with the dual sliding doors and stow and go.

The Nissan Quest is a close runner up, love that skyview roof set up.

Shame they don't make the Astro anymore, it was a hoot drifting it in Enthusia.

 

[Casio]

Honda Odyssey. (Our model)

 

[YSSMAN]

I nearly considered the Quest, but the style is still kinda quirky for me. Granted, it is sporty, and that is a good thing (I'd still say it is miles ahead of the Toyota Sienna)... But I have not seen the '07 update in person, as it's predecessor didn't have the blessings of good looks nor all-out functionality in the interior. Granted, the seats folded nearly flat into the floor, but the whole headrest problem still confuses me. They neither folded into the floor or into the seats, thus they had to be placed into a bag and placed somewhere in the van. STUPID!

 

[Master_Yoda]

Quest all the way. It has those 4 moon roofs

 

[1X83Z]

The Mazda 5

It's small size, cheap price, and overall involving atmosphere makes it a great choise for those who need functionality without losing the nature of a car. The only downside is that the 2.3L I4 is a bit overburdened with weight, especially if the MPV is fully-loaded with folks and gear, and that isn't a good thing. But given that the majority of travels may be done with just one, maybe two or three folks, the MPV is a great choise. But, for just a few bucks more, the Entourage is an attractive option.

First, you're going to have to defend that it's a minivan. Here are some facts you might not be aware of:

- it's shorter than a Saturn Ion.
- it's approximately the same length as a Toyota Corolla.
- it has only five percent more cargo room than a Chevrolet Aveo 5-door.
- it's shorter in height than a Chevrolet HHR.
- front head room equals that of a Toyota Prius; front leg room is the same as a Ford Focus; rear head room ties a Chrysler PT Cruiser, and rear leg room equals the Volkswagen GTI.
- it costs the same as a Honda Civic LX.
- it has the same horsepower rating as the Suzuki Aerio.

By every definition, the Mazda 5 is a compact car, not a minivan. Yeah, it's got sliding doors, but sliding doors do not a minivan make. Sorry, YSSMAN - no dice.

By the way, the answer is the Honda Odyssey. Still king of the hill. The Entourage/new Sedona are brilliant competitors, though. Chrysler is in vast need of a new van.

 

[YSSMAN]

My defense?

READ THE FREAKING TITLE!!!

(doesn't that look stupid now that I've done what you do?)

...It says Mini-van or MPV (aka Multi-Purpose-Vehicle). Given that the Mazda 5 is indeed an MPV, it therefore qualifies to be in this competition.

Then of course, you may complain that a MPV doesn't necessiarily compete against a mini-van, but in Europe as well as the rest of the world, they do. Thusly, I have included them in the competition.

So, my point for nomination the Mazda 5 is justified, are you happy?

 

[1X83Z]

No. "MPV" is just the European term for minivan.

Do we agree, though, that it's essentially not a minivan?

 

[YSSMAN]

It is a quasi-van thingymabob. I'd say it is big enough to be considered a small van given the sliding doors, rear hatch, and flat load floor with the seats removed. Edmunds clasifies the 5 as a van and a crossover, so I suppose it is your own pick there.

EDIT: Mazda UK calles it a Multi-Activity-Vehicle, whatever that means...

 

[JCE]

Hmmm do crossovers count?

If so I vote for this (obviously) Ford Freestyle. If the Mazda5 is in this catagory then surely the Freestyle has to be also.

But if you don't accept this then my vote is the Nissan Quest for 2 reasons, one is the sunroof+4 skyview roofs, and second is the fact that it's got the awsome VQ35 engine which despite it's weight can still get up and go.

 

[niky]

Mazda's old MPV is hardly any bigger than the new Mazda5.

I'd nominate the Mazda5, but it's a bit on the small side. My vote would go to the JDM/Asian Honda Odyssey. Though not as engaging as the Mazda5, it's still a car-like (Accord-like, actually) drive, very roomy, and nice and low.

 

[a6m5]

I can't believe I'm posting in this thread(I hope nobody sees me), but I'm voting for Odyssey(American). In the older one(2nd gen), I drove from just outside San Francisco to Portland in little over 9 hours, which included lunch and shopping. That van is fully capable of light speed. 👍👍

P.S. I did not get ticketed.

 

[Jay]

I agree with Casio for our market Honda Odyssey for sure.

 

[Omnis]

Why is the Grand Caravan with Stow N' Go such a huge deal? The Odyssey does the same thing. The interior design of the Caravan has to be the WORST thing ever drafted into production. Whoever decided to make that stupid crap that juts out of the door that jabs you in the leg when you try to sit and the stupid seatbelt appendage that holds it near the pillar needs to be fired. If you got into an accident or something, they would each shatter your adjacent arm and knee instantly. Imagine driving a wedge through your bones....It's basically a pair of plastic axes drawn into the design.

The Quest or the Odyssey wins for Soccer-Mom-Mobile. I see SO many Quests in the parking lot whenever I go to the soccer park.

 

[1X83Z]

Mazda's old MPV is hardly any bigger than the new Mazda5.

Patently false - nearly a full foot longer, and it's got double the cargo room - plus seating for seven.

By the way, the Odyssey I'm voting for is the '99-'04. Best minivan ever, except for the original. The current one is still the best on sale, but it's a bit pricey. I'd shop the competition - though I'd probably end up in an Odyssey.

It is a quasi-van thingymabob. I'd say it is big enough to be considered a small van given the sliding doors, rear hatch, and flat load floor with the seats removed. Edmunds clasifies the 5 as a van and a crossover, so I suppose it is your own pick there.

Edmunds classifies it as a van because Mazda tells them to. I mean I'm sorry YSSMAN but the rear hatch thing applies to the Dodge Caliber and Chevrolet HHR too - as does flat load floor. Why should the Mazda be a van when those clearly aren't, simply because it has sliding doors? Would you consider the Peugeot 1007 a van? And would you say the '95-'98 Honda Odyssey is NOT a van because it's missing the sliding doors?

Equating the term "van" with "sliding doors" is really screwing over consumers. We could be driving around in very interesting small cars with sliding doors, like, say a sliding door Civic, if only people didn't see sliding doors and scream "van" and consequently run in the other direction. It's truly distressing.

 

[niky]

Depends on which generation MPV you're talking about. I did say old MPV, which is only three inches longer and one wider. Of course, it's got a much higher roof, but in terms of floor area, there's not much difference there, and there's more cargo room in the Mazda5 because it lacks that third row. Of course, the new MPV is much much bigger than either. No argument there.

But you're still wrong. The Mazda5 is classifiable as a compact MPV under European nomenclature, and is the only one of its type available in the US. Other compact MPVs include the Focus C-Max, the Scenic, the old Opel Zafira (these were actually available in my home market... while you wouldn't call them a van, per se, they definitely aren't cars), etcetera... as well as the old Mitsubishi Spacewagon / RVR.

The RVR is the strangest thing. It's a four door micro-MPV, with one side door on the driver's side, two doors on the other, and a hatch in the back... and only four seats. It's definitely a van in profile... but based on a Mitsubishi Lancer and not much larger.

 

[niky]

And (sorry for this, but my EDIT button doesn't work on Opera)... Mazda didn't tell Edmunds to classify the Mazda5 as a van. Their website lists it as a "sports hatch". It's just generally classified as an MPV.

 

[daan]

The Mazda 5 has 3 rows of forward facing seats which, to me, classifies it as an MPV.

- it's shorter than a Saturn Ion. So?
- it's approximately the same length as a Toyota Corolla. So?
- it has only five percent more cargo room than a Chevrolet Aveo 5-door. Can an Aveo carry 7 people?
- it's shorter in height than a Chevrolet HHR. Can it carry 7 people?
- front head room equals that of a Toyota Prius; front leg room is the same as a Ford Focus; rear head room ties a Chrysler PT Cruiser, and rear leg room equals the Volkswagen GTI.
- it costs the same as a Honda Civic LX. So? Why is it bad that its cheap
- it has the same horsepower rating as the Suzuki Aerio.What does that have to do with anything?

You need to stop being so pedantic with your random car based "facts". It's getting boring.

 

[GilesGuthrie]

I've just done quite a lot of research in this area, and the best is the Renault Espace.

Ford's New Galaxy might be quite good once they sort the build quality issues. The triumvirate of Peugeot 807, Citroen C8 and Fiat Ulysse are OK-ish. The Chrysler Grand Voyager is big but dated and has performed poorly in the Euro NCAP crash testing, the Toyota Previa is big and roomy and well built but basic and slow.

Note that these are all quite a bit bigger than a Mazda 5, so may not be in your category. In the UK, the best-selling Mazda 5-sized vehicle is the Citroen Picasso, which is odd because it's absolutely awful. Second is the Renault Scenic, which is much better but handles poorly.

 

[a6m5]

I've just done quite a lot of research in this area, and the best is the Renault Espace.

I don't know much about it, as I live in the States. But, that would be the best looking one for sure. 👍

 

[Crash]

I think my vote will have to go to the Honda Odyssey. Although, I drive a 1997 Dodge Grand Caravan (Chrysler Grand Voyager in Europe I think?) myself.

I'll just say though, other than the rediculously bad transmission, the car hasn't been too bad; it has served us well.

 

[1X83Z]

Depends on which generation MPV you're talking about. I did say old MPV, which is only three inches longer and one wider. Of course, it's got a much higher roof, but in terms of floor area, there's not much difference there, and there's more cargo room in the Mazda5 because it lacks that third row. Of course, the new MPV is much much bigger than either. No argument there.

Yeah but you have to give me the benefit of the doubt here - when you said "old MPV" I thought you were referring to the current model - since it's been out since the Clinton years!

As far as I'm concerned, the "old MPV" which you're referring to was really an SUV, particularly as the years went on. You allude to its higher floor; I'll allude to its four swing doors and SUV styling. It also offered all-wheel drive - and if you didn't opt for that, it was rear-drive, like many SUVs. Of course, these things to not an SUV make, but check out the press picture in 1997:

http://www.theautochannel.com/media/photos/mazda/1997/97_mazda_mpv.jpg
EDIT: for some reason, this image won't show up here as an image. Try clicking on it, that works for me.
EDIT: oh screw it, I'll host it myself.

Imagine Toyota posing a Sienna in such a manner!

But you're still wrong. The Mazda5 is classifiable as a compact MPV under European nomenclature, and is the only one of its type available in the US. Other compact MPVs include the Focus C-Max, the Scenic, the old Opel Zafira (these were actually available in my home market... while you wouldn't call them a van, per se, they definitely aren't cars), etcetera... as well as the old Mitsubishi Spacewagon / RVR.

I agree - the only problem with that logic is, we haven't got any of those vehicles in the US, so calling it a "small minivan" is to give it its own category - one which it really doesn't deserve, particularly when its dimensions so closely resemble those of the Chevrolet HHR, Chrysler PT Cruiser, Honda Fit, and Dodge Caliber - all of which no one would hesitate to refer to as compact cars. In the US, the segment you're describing is that of the compact car - or, at least, until we get more of these small minivans. As I said previously - sliding doors do not a minivan make.

You need to stop being so pedantic with your random car based "facts". It's getting boring.

See this is my problem with you people here at GTP. You guys bring stuff from old threads into new ones. YSSMAN did it when he snapped at me with his "read the title" post, and now you're doing it too. The SUV thread was the SUV thread - this is something else. Up until this point I've been in good nature and have challenged only on the basis of facts, using on-point language and exercising a sunny disposition. Your reply and YSSMAN's were unacceptable.

Another problem I have is that we're here discussing the USDM minivan market, and you're asking me why the fact that the van is shorter than a Saturn Ion is relevant. The USDM minivan market is not like the European minivan market, as I've attempted to explain countless times. The average length of a USDM minivan is about 199.8 inches, or less than an inch shorter than the Chrysler Grand Voyager, which Europe has gotten for some time (it's also nine inches - or 230mm - longer than a Renault Grand Espace). In Europe, I suspect the average length of a minivan is about the length of a Vauxhall Zafira - which, at 175.9 inches, puts it more than two feet shorter than the average American minivan. That's quite a difference - to throw that into perspective for the Americans, it's the length of a Focus sedan versus the length of a Dodge Durango. The markets just aren't similar in the slightest.

Essentially, what I'm getting at, is that unlike in the SUV thread, where I was pedantic and upsettingly so with my facts (as I often am when faced with lunacy), in this thread my facts have been wholly relevant, and you've dismissed them out of hat because you really didn't understand them, and because of goings-on in a completely different thread.

And for the record, you're right - the Chevrolet Aveo 5-door and Chevrolet HHR cannot seat seven. Another compact car that can't seat seven is the Mazda 5...

 

[Famine]

In the UK and Europe we have a number of car-based MPVs, or "mini MPVs". Amongst them are the Vauxhall/Opel Zafira, Renault Megane Scenic, Citroen Xsara Picasso and Verso models of the Toyota Yaris/Vitz/Echo and Corolla. Are they the same as the "full-size" MPVs, like the Espace/Grand Espace, Voyager/Grand Voyager, Previa, VW Touran, Ford Galaxy and SEAT Alhambra? Nope. Can they still seat 7 and take luggage? Yep.

What's the definition of an MPV anyway? If it's just the seats and luggage space, most SUVs would be MPVs - but then they have 4WD. But then so do some version of MPVs (though we don't get any of those in the UK to my knowledge).

I think that for the purposes of the discussion, the miniMPVs ought to be included. The Mazda 5 may be no more than a slightly shorter, taller Mazda 6 Estate, but the Scenic is no more than a slightly taller Megane, the Versos are no more than slightly taller Corollas and Yariseseses, the Picasso is no more than a slightly taller Xsara.

And if the Mazda5 sends you into a tizzy, for Thor's sakes don't Google for the European Ford Fusion.

 

[1X83Z]

In the UK and Europe we have a number of car-based MPVs, or "mini MPVs". Amongst them are the Vauxhall/Opel Zafira, Renault Megane Scenic, Citroen Xsara Picasso and Verso models of the Toyota Yaris/Vitz/Echo and Corolla. Are they the same as the "full-size" MPVs, like the Espace/Grand Espace, Voyager/Grand Voyager, Previa, VW Touran, Ford Galaxy and SEAT Alhambra? Nope. Can they still seat 7 and take luggage? Yep.

I hate to pull "country" out - doing so at 4am my time is liable to get me stoned, usually, since it's mostly you guys who are on - but it would seem to me that the thread was clearly intended to concentrate on the USDM. The thread starter even posts a short paragraph about the recent history of the US minivan market:

Once thought to be dead in the United States, the mini-van market was for the most part left to Honda and Toyota during the 1990s as the American automakers shifted their focus twards large, truck-based SUVs. Although the mini-van's inventors, the Chrysler arm of DaimlerChrysler continued to soldier on with their Caravan and Town and Country models, the Japanese brands quickly overtook the origionators as the Queens of the Soccer-Mom hill.

Either way, my posts and the subsequent posts of the thread starter in response to mine were clearly intended to be about the US minivan market, where the Mazda 5 is certainly not a player (regardless of whether you consider it a minivan, I think everyone here would agree it's not going to be challenging the Odyssey or Grand Caravan anytime soon) - even though it certainly is such in other markets. But you can't attack my posts with logic from the European market - our markets are just too different in this respect!

I think that for the purposes of the discussion, the miniMPVs ought to be included. The Mazda 5 may be no more than a slightly shorter, taller Mazda 6 Estate, but the Scenic is no more than a slightly taller Megane, the Versos are no more than slightly taller Corollas and Yariseseses, the Picasso is no more than a slightly taller Xsara.

I agree - but I think comparing the Mazda 5 to the Honda Odyssey is a gigantic mistake, one no-one in this thread would think to make. Which was my point from the get-go: the vehicle is too small to be considered a minivan in the same respect as other USDM minivans are. It was this point that daan failed to understand and subsequently attacked me for.

And if the Mazda5 sends you into a tizzy, for Thor's sakes don't Google for the European Ford Fusion.

You mean my favorite car?!?

 

[daan]

Another problem I have is that we're here discussing the USDM minivan market, and you're asking me why the fact that the van is shorter than a Saturn Ion is relevant. The USDM minivan market is not like the European minivan market, as I've attempted to explain countless times. The average length of a USDM minivan is about 199.8 inches, or less than an inch shorter than the Chrysler Grand Voyager, which Europe has gotten for some time (it's also nine inches - or 230mm - longer than a Renault Grand Espace). In Europe, I suspect the average length of a minivan is about the length of a Vauxhall Zafira - which, at 175.9 inches, puts it more than two feet shorter than the average American minivan. That's quite a difference - to throw that into perspective for the Americans, it's the length of a Focus sedan versus the length of a Dodge Durango. The markets just aren't similar in the slightest.

In the spirit of the World Cup (damn you Germany for dissapointing me!), the newest issue of Motor Trend, and our previous SUV vs Van vs Everything else discussion, I say we have a "Battle-Royale" for the top-player in the mini-van market.
...
So how should we do this? Given that mini-vans are sold around the world, should it be a nominate and debate, or should I pick a few and go from there?

Where does that state USDM? The bit I've bolded seems to open it up to mini-vans and MPVs from all over the world.

And for the record, you're right - the Chevrolet Aveo 5-door and Chevrolet HHR cannot seat seven. Another compact car that can't seat seven is the Mazda 5...

The Mazda 5 has 3 rows of seats in a 2-3-2 arrangement. When I was taught maths, 2+3+2=7.

Above all, the Mazda5 Multi-Activity Vehicle (MAV) is designed for carrying lots of people. It can carry your family and friends - and has plenty of room for luggage. But by reconsidering the Mazda5's role, by really thinking through what this car could offer, we've taken the people carrier concept on to the next level. That's how we arrived at our Mazda5 with seating for up to seven, with the addition of a first - Karakuri Seating design.

 

[1X83Z]

Where does that state USDM? The bit I've bolded seems to open it up to mini-vans and MPVs from all over the world.

First off, see my above post where I quote the entire paragraph you've omitted in which it details the recent history of minivans in the United States. And second, even if the thread isn't intended to discuss the USDM, my own posts were, clearly (check out the cars I compared it to) - and that's what you were replying to. I really think your reply was unfair, both in its tone, and in its subject matter.

The Mazda 5 has 3 rows of seats in a 2-3-2 arrangement. When I was taught maths, 2+3+2=7.

In the US, the vehicle is sold with three rows each containing two seats.

 

[Famine]

But you can't attack my posts

I wasn't. In fact I was helping you along a little by pointing out that the Mazda 5 is clearly an MPV but doesn't belong in the same class as "full-size" MPVs (what you'd refer to as Minivans) - and that us "Europeans" stick it into a "mini MPV" class, along with a few competitor cars (Zafira, Scenic, Picasso and suchlike), to help demarcate obvious MPV-like cars from MPVs.

 

[Pupik]

I've been meaning to start a thread like this for years; let's say you're stuck in prugatory, and must choose a minivan (Renault Espace F1 doesn't count).

My answer would be the Honda Odessey. It looks and acts the part, having actually driven one (back when I did a lot more driving at my job). My sister has a Mazda MPV, and it's not too bad, a little softer than the Honda's ride.

As a side note, my family had two Minivans over the years, a '86 Ford Aerostar and a '93 Mercury Villager. That Nissan V6 was a good motor for the Villager despite all that heft. But the interior trim was left wanting in a few depatments, leaking windshield, foam insulation came out of every possible place on the car, and the removable seats were quite a PITA to remove and replace, but otherwise it was a solid piece of machinery.

The Aerostar was cool-looking on the inside and out for the times, but we had a lot of engine problems with it (early run car) and sold it for what would become my first car, an '88 Honda Accord.

 

[F1GTR]

Mercedes-Benz Viano in Ambiente trim. It may well just be a van with windows but it seats 7 very comfortably and has lots of room for luggage. But it is pricey.

If the 'Benz is too expensive, a Renault Espace is a very good MPV.

 

[daan]

I agree - but I think comparing the Mazda 5 to the Honda Odyssey is a gigantic mistake, one no-one in this thread would think to make. Which was my point from the get-go: the vehicle is too small to be considered a minivan in the same respect as other USDM minivans are. It was this point that daan failed to understand and subsequently attacked me for.

But we're talking MPVs too, which the Mazda5 is. (Edmunds has it as a minivan anyway). It's highly unlikely that an Odyssey and a 5 would be on someone's shopping list, as they are completely different sizes and prices. Say someone is looking for "something" (minivan/MPV/people carrier. Call it what you will) to carry 6 people (including driver). They have a budget of $18,000. A Mazda5 would do that job, yes? That person suddenly realises that they can afford $26,000, so therefore an Odyssey becomes available. Should they buy an Odyssey, when the 5 does the job they need it for? Why should someone buy a big minivan/MPV/people carrier if the smaller one does the job?

Part of the problem here is "what is a minivan/MPV/people carrier?" To me, as I said earlier its,

The Mazda 5 has 3 rows of forward facing seats which, to me, classifies it as an MPV.

So a Honda Odyssey, to me, is an MPV. They are all just words that people can interpret in their own way. It was the same problem in the HSV Maloo ute beating the Dodge Ram as the fastest "pickup truck" thread. An American view of a pickup truck is entirely different from a rest of the world pickup truck. You (generic you) seem to put more emphasis on the truck part, whereas the emphasis elsewhere seems to be on the pickup part. So a pickup is anything from a Dodge Ram down through the HSV to the Daihatsu Midget. A minivan/MPV/people carrier can range from a Mazda5, right up to what? Odyssey? Nissan Quest? GMC Savannah?