Soccer-Mom Showdown: Crowning the Queen of the Mini-Van/MPV Hill

[JCE]

Heh, I had an interesting thought.

How much work would it take to put a Mazda 5 body on say, a Mazdaspeed 6 Drivetrain.

It makes me giggle insanely.

Well there is already the engine w/turbo option...AWD and the suspension are the only thing left. 👍

 

[Onikaze]

Indeed.

It would make me happy to see.

About the Renault...well...

This is America, we don't believe in French Cars.

 

[1X83Z]

I admit that I didn't see the smiley, my apologies. We've all been a bit snappy after the whole SUV thing, so I suggest we let all of that go...

Agreed.

Now the VW Touran is a nice MPV, correct? I often wonder what the possibilities of it comming to the US are, but with the new Rabbit (Golf) comming stateside, I somewhat dobut it now. But hey, if they do, I'm sure they would sell to VW-crazy folks like me.

I've heard a lot of Europeans say it's quite boring, though quite competent. It would be very small for the US market, at just 172.9 inches - about 2.5 inches shorter than the Focus sedan. As I've said, this market just hasn't proven its profitability - many similar-sized small vans failed in the US in the 1980s and 1990s (like the Plymouth Colt Vista and the Mitsubishi Expo). It'll be interesting to see if the Mazda 5 does well - it's doing okay right now - but it is on the large side of that class.

EDIT: by the way, of all the cars I didn't think would appear in 3F3F: Tokyo Drift, the Volkswagen Touran was probably at the very top of my list.

Renault Avantime says "Game over, boys!"

Wow Famine - is that a picture of one of the two they managed to sell in Britain?

 

[Famine]

Now now, you know that's not true.

They sold eight.


(and, for everyone else, no, I'm NOT kidding)


Which is a pity, because it's awesome.

Incidentally, someone I know owns a Renault Vel Satis - pretty much the only car the Avantime can compete for sales figures with.

 

[1X83Z]

They sold eight?! I honestly thought they sold two!

I remember when CAR the magazine started up its "send us an image of a rare car" thing called "the camera phone never lies" (of which I am in for June 2006!), they asked for an Avantime. They still haven't published an image of one - though someone sent in an image of a Veyron. So theoretically that means the Veyron is more common than the Avantime. Which doesn't surprise me.

EDIT: gotta love the prospect of re-selling an Avantime...

 

[Famine]

Actually, I've no clue how many they sold, though I do know they sold 8 in 2003 - its last year - and there's 22 currently for sale on Autotrader.

 

[1X83Z]

Some of those are probably imported, too. I would be quite surprised if the total sales surpassed fifteen. Weren't they only on sale in 2003?

 

[Famine]

2002 and 2003. And those ones all appear to be right-hand-drive...

 

[1X83Z]

I guess 2002 was a banner year then - a meteoric, what, fifty sales?! Man - start the factory back up - the UK clearly has demand!

 

[YSSMAN]

The Avantime is indeed a quirky-looking MPV, and I'd have to commend Renault for building something like that. I assume it is quite functional despite it's crazy design, and thats a good thing. As for the Vel Satis, I'd say it looks better.

I can't say I'd never consider an Avantime as a personal vehicle. Granted it isn't pretty, but you know that no-one would steal it if it is that ugly.

 

[GilesGuthrie]

Actually, I've no clue how many they sold, though I do know they sold 8 in 2003 - its last year - and there's 22 currently for sale on Autotrader.

That's disappointing. I too thought they'd only sold 8 in the UK, out of a worldwide production run of some 400 cars. 22 makes them relatively common.

And wow! What depreciation! Paying £8k for a car that was the thick end of £30k three years ago!

 

[GT Pro]

Yep, 2 victorious and amazing years for the Avantime, (2001-2003).

"Renault teamed up with Matra to build the next modern European MPV. Many buyers didn't like its strange styling which sacrificed passenger room. Matra later went bankrupt, and Renault scrapped the Avantime after two years in production. Only 8,450 Avantimes were produced."- Wikipedia

And Famine, I found out it was mid double-digits in the UK, Don't know the total exactly.

Here's a quick fact: There is a whole 1! Only 1! example of an Avantime in North America.👍

 

[YSSMAN]

Who the hell bought an Avantime in North America? It must be in Canada or something...

(Or I suppose it could be in the museum of modern art with the Jaguar E-Type and such in NYC).

 

[1X83Z]

That's disappointing. I too thought they'd only sold 8 in the UK, out of a worldwide production run of some 400 cars. 22 makes them relatively common.

Relative to what?! The 02-05 Acura NSX, which sold an awesome 75 units over four years in the UK? The R34 GT-R, which managed something like eleven official sales?! If they sold less than 100 over a two year period, the vehicle should be considered for "flop of the year."

 

[Scaff]

Relative to what?! The 02-05 Acura NSX, which sold an awesome 75 units over four years in the UK? The R34 GT-R, which managed something like eleven official sales?! If they sold less than 100 over a two year period, the vehicle should be considered for "flop of the year."

Do you by any chance mean the Honda NSX?

I would imagine that the grand total of Acura NSX's sold in the UK would be zero, as the brand Acura has never been used in the UK.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Famine]

Relative to what?! The 02-05 Acura NSX, which sold an awesome 75 units over four years in the UK? The R34 GT-R, which managed something like eleven official sales?! If they sold less than 100 over a two year period, the vehicle should be considered for "flop of the year."

The Honda NSX sold 11 in 2005. STFU, n00b!

And the R34 Skyline GT-R sold its allocation of 50 units for each production year it was sold in the UK - 1999 to 2001.

 

[1X83Z]

The Honda NSX sold 11 in 2005. STFU, n00b!

It sold eight in 2001, and while that's not in the year range I mentioned it certainly means my guess of 75 over four years was probably a bit high. And you're the n00b - I'm 1337!

And the R34 Skyline GT-R sold its allocation of 50 units for each production year it was sold in the UK - 1999 to 2001.

According to the January 2002 issue of CAR, Nissan only sold thirteen Skyline GT-Rs in 2001. The list of the slowest selling vehicles in the UK with sales volume that year was:

Rolls-Royce Park Ward - 1
Chrysler Viper - 3
Honda NSX - 8
Fiat Barchetta - 10
Nissan Skyline GT-R - 13
Bentley Azure - 15
Rolls-Royce Corniche - 16
Lamborghini Diablo - 20
Bentley Continental - 23
Chevrolet Corvette - 30

These are official sales only of course - the gray market for the Barchetta and Skyline were notably stronger, and I assume it was at least a bit stronger for the Viper and Corvette as well. The 23 '01 Bentley Continentals sold is a far cry from these days, now that they sell 23 every second.

 

[Famine]

Due to regs for that particular time period, we were only allowed to sell a certain allocation of certain vehicles a year. There was a colossal oversubscription for 1999's allocation of R34 GT-Rs, and they just tacked the orders on to subsequent years' allocations. It may be that only 13 orders were taken in the 2001 year, and the other cars delivered were long-standing customer orders. Scaff would be better to talk to about this, as he has had close dealings with Nissan UK in that period.

Grey imports all had to pass a Single Vehicle type Approval test before they could be used on our shores. The official vehicles didn't.

 

[YSSMAN]

This is certainly a fight reserved for another topic, but I think you are missing the point here M5Power. The cars you mention are for the most part exotic models, so obviously they aren't going to have HUGE sales figures like that of your everyday Vectra or MX-5. Giles Guthrie was joking a bit (tounge-in-cheek, I know), but I think most folks would agree that the Avantime was a collassal flop for Renault given the success that it should have had.

Crazy styling doesn't win the public over in most circumstances, even with superior build quality and far superior technology as the latest versions of the Nissan Quest have proven. The early 3rd-Gen models (2004-2006) were pretty ugly on the outside and inside, hence the revamp for the 2007 model year. Early sales were pretty slow on the Quest, and they have stayed that way much to the surprise to the folks at Nissan.

 

[1X83Z]

Giles Guthrie was joking a bit (tounge-in-cheek, I know), but I think most folks would agree that the Avantime was a collassal flop for Renault given the success that it should have had.

I wouldn't say he was joking - we both assumed they had sold two! The fact that 22 are for sale presently on AutoTrader means they indeed were relatively common - relative to the number we'd both previously known.

Crazy styling doesn't win the public over in most circumstances, even with superior build quality and far superior technology as the latest versions of the Nissan Quest have proven. The early 3rd-Gen models (2004-2006) were pretty ugly on the outside and inside, hence the revamp for the 2007 model year. Early sales were pretty slow on the Quest, and they have stayed that way much to the surprise to the folks at Nissan.

I'm not sure YSSMAN - the styling of the Nissan Murano and Infiniti FX is far from mainstream but they sure have won over the public. How about the new Civic? Its design is far from the basic 'three box' layout typical of sedans, especially small ones, yet it's doing disgustingly well. I think if the product's good enough it'll sell - as long as the styling isn't really and truly out of this world. However I can think of only one vehicle - the Pontiac Aztek - with that quality.

By the way, another good example of weird styling selling well is the new Escalade. That thing is disgusting - who's with me?!?!

(and don't make me mention the new S-class)

 

[Scaff]

Due to regs for that particular time period, we were only allowed to sell a certain allocation of certain vehicles a year. There was a colossal oversubscription for 1999's allocation of R34 GT-Rs, and they just tacked the orders on to subsequent years' allocations. It may be that only 13 orders were taken in the 2001 year, and the other cars delivered were long-standing customer orders. Scaff would be better to talk to about this, as he has had close dealings with Nissan UK in that period.

Grey imports all had to pass a Single Vehicle type Approval test before they could be used on our shores. The official vehicles didn't.

Yep the R34 Skyline certainly did sell its full allocation and as Famine has already pointed out, the wait list for the car was substaintial.

I would also be very wary of taking 2001 sales figures from a magazine with a cover date of Jan 2002. In the UK that issue would almost certainly have been published in December '01, which means most of the content would have been written in Nov 2001.

In addition the SMMT, who publish the most acurate sales figures in the UK, do not normally publish past year figures until the end of the first quarter the following year, to ensure that they are accurate.

BTW - small aside, but even the official R34s underwent SVA, as they were Japanese spec cars that were modified to be sold in the UK (usual minor stuff), the easy way to tell an official Nissan UK car from a grey is to have a look under the back of the car. All the NUK cars had an oil cooler fitted to the rear diff and its distinctive cooling fins are an easy giveaway.

On the crazy styling side of things, I personally think that it depends if it catches the public mood or not. The Avantime is actually a quite interesting car, the Vel Satis was the ugly bugger in my eyes. Yet neither sold well at all. The new Megane however has traded on its strange styling and sold well as a result.

Regards

Scaff

 

[1X83Z]

I don't think the big problem with the Avantime was its styling - I personally fault its lofty prices (considering it was essentially an MPV except with just two doors) along with its strange and sometimes not well-designed interior. Mainly, though, it's the fact that it was a 2-door MPV. There's a reason those don't exist, folks.

 

[Scaff]

I don't think the big problem with the Avantime was its styling - I personally fault its lofty prices (considering it was essentially an MPV except with just two doors) along with its strange and sometimes not well-designed interior. Mainly, though, it's the fact that it was a 2-door MPV. There's a reason those don't exist, folks.

Having sat in a number of them (never had a chance to actually drive one) the interior was on the whole very well done. However in typical Renault style a number of small details ruined the interior for me, the main one being that they kept the standard Espace steering wheel and it just looks so out of place in the car.

Another part of the problem was quite simply, outside of France, big French cars do not sell. The rest of the European market simply does not like them, they are considered poor value, unreliable and most of all you can buy a better German car for the same money.

One quirk of this is that a lot of people are suggesting that a cheap Avantime is now a good investment as its small production run means that it may well become a collectable and rare car in the future.

Regards

Scaff

BTW - The door mechanism was a piece of engineering art, an excellent cantilevered mechanism that has now been adopted by some of the German manufacturers for large coupe doors.

 

[Danny]

I'll nominate the Espace too.

and also the Merc Viano/V Class for luxury. And the fact that Brabus will make it go WHOOOSH for you.

 

[Famine]

On the crazy styling side of things, I personally think that it depends if it catches the public mood or not. The Avantime is actually a quite interesting car, the Vel Satis was the ugly bugger in my eyes. Yet neither sold well at all.

One of my hockeyists had to ditch his old Laguna and was looking for a replacement. He knows full well that I'm a bit of a car nut, so I offered him a few suggestions based on what he wanted out of a car.

Two weeks later he'd bought a new car, but wouldn't tell me what it was because he didn't want to know what I'd say about it - so I thought he'd bought a Vectra or Mondeo. Eventually I wheedled it out of him.

"A Vel Satis."

"What?! Dude, that's awesome!"

"Huh?"

He thought I'd rip into him, but I love that car. Okay, I'd never have one myself. As soon as he saw it, he wanted to sit in it. As soon as he sat in it, he wanted to buy it, so he did.

Oddly, after his comment that you'd "never see another one", there's an identical one trundling around our town!


Incidentally...

the mini-van's inventors, the Chrysler arm of DaimlerChrysler

Could you qualify that for me? I thought that the Renault, courtesy of Matra-Simca - though originally a non-produced Chrysler UK design from Fergus Pollock, the Brit responsible for the original XK8 - launched the first "Minivan" with the Espace, and since their model was actually built and sold first they ought to be credited as the "inventors".

 

[GilesGuthrie]

This is certainly a fight reserved for another topic, but I think you are missing the point here M5Power. The cars you mention are for the most part exotic models, so obviously they aren't going to have HUGE sales figures like that of your everyday Vectra or MX-5. Giles Guthrie was joking a bit (tounge-in-cheek, I know), but I think most folks would agree that the Avantime was a collassal flop for Renault given the success that it should have had.

Crazy styling doesn't win the public over in most circumstances, even with superior build quality and far superior technology as the latest versions of the Nissan Quest have proven. The early 3rd-Gen models (2004-2006) were pretty ugly on the outside and inside, hence the revamp for the 2007 model year. Early sales were pretty slow on the Quest, and they have stayed that way much to the surprise to the folks at Nissan.

The Avantime was the sort of thing you would have expected from Citroen. I think it was quite a good idea, it was just that Renault's idea of what it was was quite different to how they should have tried to sell it. I don't thik it's a bad looking thing. And there are at least two of them in Edinburgh.

 

[1X83Z]

Could you qualify that for me? I thought that the Renault, courtesy of Matra-Simca - though originally a non-produced Chrysler UK design from Fergus Pollock, the Brit responsible for the original XK8 - launched the first "Minivan" with the Espace, and since their model was actually built and sold first they ought to be credited as the "inventors".

I'll clarify it.

First, "Fergus Pollock" is a classic British name.

Second: Chrysler invented the minivan. It's just that simple. They came up with the idea in the late 1970s and sold it and a few others to Peugeot-Citroen, who didn't want it, resulting in Matra pitching it to Renault, who eventually produced it. Since, Chrysler developed the whole thing for them and all they did was produce it, they barely even had a hand in the whole thing. Except, you know, the fact that they released the vehicle with their badge on it.

The kicker is that though both vehicles debuted in 1983, the Chrysler vans debuted earlier, so Chrysler did indeed beat them and consequently "invented" the minivan. Says WikiPedia: "Though there is some debate, the Chrysler triplets did beat the Renault Espace by a few months, making them the first of their kind."

 

[YSSMAN]

^ You beat me to it, darn it all!

 

[Famine]

Ah - we didn't get the Chryslets in Europe, so we tend to refer to the Espace as the first MPV. We only really saw the Caravan in its third generation, as the Chrysler Voyager.

 

[1X83Z]

Ah - we didn't get the Chryslets in Europe, so we tend to refer to the Espace as the first MPV. We only really saw the Caravan in its third generation, as the Chrysler Voyager.

And for that I'm sorry.

No just kidding - the third gen was actually the best gen. Didn't go over so well in Europe, but it was a big hit stateside.