Spain putting us all at risk?

[RallyF1]

Originally posted by danoff
First of all, thanks for brushing off my comments like an ass.

Secondly,

When I mentioned America I was mentioning a specific example. My next statement genralizes what I was talking about to all people.

You said that:



which is complete and utter bull****. Human beings don't inflict pain whenever they have a chance. Our species would never have survived if that were the case. Human beings are about protecting their possessions and controling their lives. That's what war is all about. At a national scale it has nothing to do with inflicting pain and everything to do with control.

Now, you read my post in its entirety and respond appropriately this time.

read mu last post and understand what i said, it's in general not specific. and i would like to thank you for such refined verbal comunication. learn how to comunicate and then i might consider arguing with you. have a nice day man, and i hope you grow up fast enough so that you can catch up with what is going around the world. read analyze, evalute both sides and then respond. never respond out of emotions, that's when you are most volatile.

and another thing, do not take it personal.

 

[Duke]

Originally posted by RallyF1
learn how to comunicate and then i might consider arguing with you. have a nice day man, and i hope you grow up fast enough so that you can catch up with what is going around the world.

These are quite possibly the most unknowingly ironic words posted since Teresa bit the dust.

Read some of danoff's posts - actually read them - and understand what a marvel of clear communication they are. He understands what he's talking about and describes it clearly and accurately. He understands what you're talking about better than you do, which is why you keep trying to project your emotional response onto him. It won't work. It is clear who can logically back his arguments, and who can't.

Hint: danoff can, you can't.

 

[RallyF1]

Originally posted by neon_duke
These are quite possibly the most unknowingly ironic words posted since Teresa bit the dust.

Read some of danoff's posts - actually read them - and understand what a marvel of clear communication they are. He understands what he's talking about and describes it clearly and accurately. He understands what you're talking about better than you do, which is why you keep trying to project your emotional response onto him. It won't work. It is clear who can logically back his arguments, and who can't.

Hint: danoff can, you can't.

thank you for a well thought, articulated, and biased opinion
yes i guess i am not logical after all, have a nice day. have to go to work, unlike some people i know who only argue
bye bye

 

[milefile]

It's typical of brainless liberals to have no comprehension of what they are talking about, or what any one else is talking about. They exist in a bubble unrealted to any real things.

But at least they have their exit strategy down: attempt to make a generalization and duck out before every last one of their sylables is left in a smoldering ruin. It's become very predictable.

They also claim to be outnumbered, and cite that as the reason for a debate being "useless". But they are not outnumbered, not here, not even close, and yet 99% of them are totally incapable of articulating a point (correct or incorrect), let alone constructing a coherent sentence. This Opinions Forum is going down the toilet with dumbasses like "RallyF1" posting. And what is up with that stupid name, anyway?

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by RallyF1
thank you for a well thought, articulated, and biased opinion
yes i guess i am not logical after all, have a nice day. have to go to work, unlike some people i know who only argue
bye bye

See?

 

[Duke]

Originally posted by neon_duke
It is clear who can logically back his arguments, and who can't.

Hint: danoff can, you can't.

Originally posted by RallyF1
thank you for a well thought, articulated, and biased opinion
yes i guess i am not logical after all, have a nice day. have to go to work, unlike some people i know who only argue
bye bye

I rest my case.

[edit] Hey Rally_f1 and k_speed: take a lesson from vat_man above. He cites actual research and information, from which he draws a logical conclusion. He can back up his opinion with thinking and knowledge. There's more to his thought process than "war is bad and the US sucks, mmmmmkay?"

It shows. If I get a chance, I'll respond to his post in kind. But note that I did not just come on and call him and idiot and run off again. His thinking earns him my respect, whether or not I agree with his logic.

 

[Danoff]

the Patrido Popular party makes a decision that quite clearly flies in the face of the will of the people, there is an attack as a direct result of that decision, and you go off at the Spaniards for voting for the other party?

I'd like to see you back this up... that the attack was a direct result of a decision that the popular party made.

Your claim here is that the Spaniards would have voted the same way regardless of the attack. I'm not completely certain but I think that's wrong according to polls.

 

[milefile]

Why haven't they attacked the U.S. then?

 

[vat_man]

Originally posted by danoff
I'd like to see you back this up... that the attack was a direct result of a decision that the popular party made.

Your claim here is that the Spaniards would have voted the same way regardless of the attack. I'm not completely certain but I think that's wrong according to polls.

Well, quite clearly I can't, since I'm not an operative with Al Qaeda - but it would an assumption in the minds of most voters, I would suggest.

Opinion polls prior to the election (from little information I could find - most of the links seem go to indignant blogs accusing the Spaniards of being cowards) seem to suggest voters were tending towards another Patrido Popular candidate. I have no idea of how close the polls were.

I didn't actually claim that the Spanish were going to vote for the PSOE prior to the election - I had tried to find information on pre-polling but had not been able to find much information.

I guess the point I was trying to make was that the decision to send troops to Iraq was extremely unpopular in Spain. They have a very large illegal immigrant population, a large number of whom are Muslims, and they have much larger internal concerns about terrorism (I guess living for decades in the shadows of ETA will do that).

In the week before the election, 200 people were killed in an event that is extremely likely to have been linked to the decision to send troops.

Think of it this way - say a Government makes a hugely unpopular decision to introduce an immunisation program that is compulsory for all citizens. The immunisation program starts a week before the election, and on the first day, 200 people die as a result of the immunisation, with many others severely injured. Would said Government get by without some ramifications at the ballot box?

It's not the best parallel, but it brings across the point - if you cut across public opinion, it will cost you. I'm sure such an incident would provoke very different reactions in different countries - it would probably strengthen the US's resolve, and to be frank, I have no idea what would happen here in Australia.

The other part of what I was trying to get across was that all of the comment I have seen has made no effort to understand the environment in Spain in the months and years leading up to the attacks, politcally and also from a demographic viewpoint.

The opinion there is that assisting in the war in Iraq is not the best use of Spanish resources in their war against terror. I have the same issue here - I think Australian resources would be much better employed in Afghanistan and South East Asia, and I would have thought the Bali bombing would have been evidence enough of that. We're much closer to Pakistan than the US is, and we should be exploiting that relationship to provide better focus on the leaders of Al Qaeda. I am still firmly of the opinion that Australian support in the war in Iraq was not the best use of our resources, both from ours and international viewpoint.

...but thats a whole different story. Note that this is an opinion and not stated as a matter of fact.

On another point - this thread does highlight why I generally don't get involved in these debates. Reason seems to go out the window and they degenerate into name calling. A particular personal favourite is the use of the word 'liberal' as an abuse term - it's the name of the right wing party here, so it's particularly ironic from a local point of view.

 

[Danoff]

Thank you for an informative, thoughtful post vat_man . We need more people like you on the opinions board.

However, since this is a discussion, I feel the need to point out an issue that I take with your post.

Think of it this way - say a Government makes a hugely unpopular decision to introduce an immunisation program that is compulsory for all citizens. The immunisation program starts a week before the election, and on the first day, 200 people die as a result of the immunisation, with many others severely injured. Would said Government get by without some ramifications at the ballot box?

You point out that this is a bad comparison and you’re right. This is a terrible comparison. In this scenario, the actions of the government kill people directly, whereas what happened here would be the actions of the government supposedly causing other people to murder (although it has been pointed out that the terrorist attack was being planned and set up before Spain committed troops to Iraq). There is a big difference and you are, no doubt, aware of that. But you should try not to pick hypotheticals that mischaracterize the event.

I believe that the outcome of the election in Spain was something of a shock. This indicates that many people were swayed by the attack into voting for the other party. They falsely (as you have done in your hypothetical) blamed the Spanish government for the deaths of those people rather than placing the blame where it belonged.

The fault lies partially with the Bush administration for not properly communicating the motivation behind going in to Iraq. Additional fault lies with ignorant Spanish voters who have not taken the initiative to understand the situation and who allow themselves to be blinded by their dislike of America.

Whether you agree with who is at fault is somewhat beside the point.

The real point is that the result their actions is a signal to terrorists that they can persuade nations through terrorism… that they can hold a nation hostage to fear and that they can shape the political decisions of leaders via the death of innocent human beings. The result is an increased likelihood of future terrorist attacks in Spain, America, Australia and the rest of the World.

I think you conceded this last paragraph already in one of your statements. So (the use of Australian military resources aside) I figure you agree with me.

 

[vat_man]

Well, I wasn't really disagreeing with you, and in fact in my first post I suggested it was likely that danger levels in western countries had increased as a result - simply trying to fill in some background on the circumstances behind what happened. No event with is without context, and the context must be considered to fully appreciated what has occured.

At the end of the day, the election result in Spain will probably increase the probability of further attempts at terrorist attacks in other countries in the lead up to their elections.

In terms of my analogy, what I was attempting to highlight there was that if a Government takes an unpopular decision, and if the negative ramificatios of that decision (and the attack being directly linked to Spain's participation in the war on Iraq is key here) occur a week before the election, then the Government will face the consequences at the ballot box.

I agree it will probably be taken as a signal to Al Qaeda that opinion can be influenced - what I was driving at was that in Spain's the opinion didn't need much influencing.

Following on from this, I wonder how the election would have gone if had there been a high level of Spanish military casualties in Iraq in the weeks leading up to the poll. EDIT - note that in this I mean if the train bombing had not occured.

 

[Duke]

For what it's worth, opinion polls in the week before the Madrid bombing were running about 65/35 in favor of the incumbent.

And yes: danoff, milefile, ///M-spec, Sage, I and others here are all liberals in the classical, Enlightenment sense. What people call "liberal" nowadays in America are actually "New Liberals", which didn't arise as a political force until around 1880-90.

 

[Sage]

So, since I just jumped into this (and I'm done splitting hairs), let me clarify vat_man's position... are you basically saying that by putting their troops in Iraq, the Spanish government has partially brought the consequences (of the election) onto themselves? I get that you totally understand that the terrorists were probably the primary motive, but you're saying that Spain's involvement in Iraq fueled that to a certain extent...?

 

[vat_man]

Yes - combination of their participation in Iraq, the opposition party promising to withdraw troops if elected, and the upcoming elections. It seems fairly straightforward to me - just look at the number of foiled plots we've seen in Britain.

In terms of bringing the consequences on themselves - not quite how I would have put it. As mentioned in my first paragraph, the circumstances that arose, which were triggered by Spain's active participation in Iraq, made Spain a much higher profile target than would have otherwise been the case. Someone made the decision to go ahead with the attack - motivated by the potential to influence the Spanish elections.

So - bottom line - am I of the opinion that the attack would not have happened if Spain weren't involved in the war on Iraq? Yes, I am. I'm not suggesting that Spain would not have suffered a terrorist attack at some stage, but I am of the belief that this specific terrorist attack was primarily motivated by Spain's involvement, and yes, the attack was intended to sway public opinion.

 

[RallyF1]

what do you want me to say, i'm dumbfounded. you guys should be advocates, no really i mean it. how nice of you guys of doing all the reaserch and coming up with all these facts.
basically i don't have anything to say here except that, time will tell. just like vietnam and the crimes that where comitted then, only to resurface afterwards. something like this and many other incidents that might not fit in this post.

be open minded, and admit the facts. great power comes with great responsibilities, so don't feel bad about it guys

 

[K_Speed]

yea lol I hear the americans about their stories...pff yeeaaaa....of course they took their clothes off and made them stay on a carton and if they moved theyd die, yea I heard about that. Whahahaha, even the Iraqis are nicer!
And its not just punching one guy in the face, its punching all of them in the face.

Oh yea, and just sticking a stick up someones ass, no its not that bad! Im not sure, I think u should know.

I mean dudes,

wheres the american Honor? What is that thing that u did every moring before school started. lol, nice honor!

 

[Duke]

Given the choice between a rectal exam with a baton and being put through a wood chipper or bombed with nerve gas, I'll take the rectal please.

So I don't want to hear "Whahahaha, even the Iraqis are nicer!".

I'm not excusing what happened in the prisons, and I sincerely hope the people who did it spend years in the brig getting a taste of their own medicine. But if you think this is worse than what the former regime did, you are either ignorant or deluded.

 

[Danoff]

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_15-4-2004_pg4_10

I can't find proper evidence, but Aznar is claiming that the bombings were planned as long ago as autumn 2002. The videotape that they found from the terrorists that carried out the attacks list attrocities in Afghanistan as a key reason for the attacks lending some credibility to the claim that the attack was planned before the Iraq war.


Edit:

be open minded, and admit the facts. great power comes with great responsibilities, so don't feel bad about it guys

Words of wisdom from the all wise all knowing RallyF1. I appreciate your advice, I had forgotten that quote from Spiderman. Now that you mention it, I'll apply it to every aspect of my life. You and comic books have changed me forever with your brilliant message.


Edit:

wheres the american Honor?

We've got 100,000 troops over there - and you don't expect a few of them to be power tripping morons? We've got soldiers over there who have rolled grendades into the tents of their own brothers-in-arms... of course we've got people over there who are willing to do increadibly stupid and inhumane things to the people who are trying to kill them. It's terrible and they will be punished, but it's not altogether unexpected.

The American honor lies with the other 99,994 of them.

(yes I know the numbers aren't exact, I was proving a point)

 

[///M-Spec]

Originally posted by neon_duke
Given the choice between a rectal exam with a baton and being put through a wood chipper or bombed with nerve gas, I'll take the rectal please.

So I don't want to hear "Whahahaha, even the Iraqis are nicer!"

Let's not forget some of these hilarious classics of the Hussein era: a politcal prisoner is whipped bloody and raw, then tied up and deposited in a vat of sewage and human feces. He is left there for days so his wounds can become infected. Nice.

Daddy's boy Uday was a hoot too. As chairman of Iraq's Olympic committee, he routinely tortured his own players if they failed to perform in sporting events. It got to the point where pretty much no one in Iraq wanted to play sports because they were terrified to be 'recruited' to play for Uday. WTG.

But Iraq certainly does not have a monopoly on exemplary behavior. During the war with Iraq from '80-88, Iran used children to clear land mines. No, they weren't given detection and removal equipment. They were tied up together in a long line and told to run into the mine field and set them off. Swell. 👍

A (small) number of Americans have probably done some morally repugnant things since we've been in Iraq. But we're just amatuers compared to what's been going on for years in that region.

Yes. It doesn't excuse any of it. Those people should face justice just like any other American who commits a crime. But lets quit acting like the Middle East was a paradise of human dignity before we got there: it wasn't.


M

 

[ledhed]

American honor ? What would you know of Honor ? You think the soldiers in question represent the whole of the U S military ? I read post by different people in this thread calmly and rationally discussing different views and opinions and at the same time I have to wade through the spam and idiotic utterances of mindless dolts with pus filled pimples for brain matter. use your time to gain an education of some sorts no matter how it might hurt and stop posting your idiobabble just to get a reaction. sooner or later playtimes over and you have to grow up and contribute to the human race, not just be a human waste.

 

[milefile]

K-speed is an idiot. But everybody already knew that.

 

[Solid Lifters]

Originally posted by milefile
K-speed is an idiot. But everybody already knew that.

And he's from the land with an exemplary human rights record.

 

[miata13B]

that was 6 million right? Did you ever smell the room in the holocaust museum where the shoes are? There is a true taste of Human Rights. . .

 

[milefile]

Again, war is hell. In fact, you can't have war without atrocity, and America has commited no atrocity in this war. Some assholes abused prisoners. Anyone stupid enough to make a generalization about all Americans, or even Bush, based on that, is an ignorant moron.

Right K-speed? Sig Heil!

 

[vat_man]

As I mentioned in the other thread on this topic (that I closed, as it turned into a flame war, which is the direction this looks headed, and milefile and miata13b, that was particularly uncalled for), the problem the US faces here is that it's come in as the 'liberator', saving people from the clutches of the evil Saddam.

When you present yourself like this, coming in from the moral high ground, you need to be squeaky clean in terms of the conduct of your troops. The Arab world is just hanging on the US showing any signs of anything less than perfection, and I would have thought this would have been rammed home to the troops.

So - from a big picture point of view, this is a very bad thing. The Iraqis are now getting the impression that the US is an occupying, rather than a liberating force, and acting as badly as the old regime.

It doesn't matter whether they're actually acting as badly or not, it's about impressions - and that's what matters here. That's why Bush is working so hard to condemn those involved.

Nasty business.

 

[miata13B]

Originally posted by vat_man
As I mentioned in the other thread on this topic (that I closed, as it turned into a flame war, which is the direction this looks headed, and milefile and miata13b, that was particularly uncalled for), the problem the US faces here is that it's come in as the 'liberator', saving people from the clutches of the evil Saddam.

When you present yourself like this, coming in from the moral high ground, you need to be squeaky clean in terms of the conduct of your troops. The Arab world is just hanging on the US showing any signs of anything less than perfection, and I would have thought this would have been rammed home to the troops.

So - from a big picture point of view, this is a very bad thing. The Iraqis are now getting the impression that the US is an occupying, rather than a liberating force, and acting as badly as the old regime.

It doesn't matter whether they're actually acting as badly or not, it's about impressions - and that's what matters here. That's why Bush is working so hard to condemn those involved.

Nasty business.

Originally posted by K_Speed
"Spain putting us all at risk?"

Exact Opposite, they put you in danger when they said yes to the war. Good they returned to their country.

Originally posted by K_Speed
ok well it is better that Spain left Iraq, but it also of course has a negative side since theyre not fighting terrorism, yes I know

Originally posted by K_Speed
Yea Coward, whatever, Im a coward then, and Im prowd of it!!!

At least the spanish dont fight like the americans....uve seen the pics in Jail, very amusing how they stick sticks up Iraqis asses.

Ermm, Kind of, kind of, ermmm, reminds me of the nazis, when I saw those pics, I felt like throwing up and already ran to the bathroom,


Coward, feels good

Originally posted by K_Speed
yea lol I hear the americans about their stories...pff yeeaaaa....of course they took their clothes off and made them stay on a carton and if they moved theyd die, yea I heard about that. Whahahaha, even the Iraqis are nicer!
And its not just punching one guy in the face, its punching all of them in the face.

Oh yea, and just sticking a stick up someones ass, no its not that bad! Im not sure, I think u should know.

I mean dudes,

wheres the american Honor? What is that thing that u did every moring before school started. lol, nice honor!

Originally posted by milefile
Yeah. Germany has a lot room to talk, eh?

Originally posted by miata13B
that was 6 million right? Did you ever smell the room in the holocaust museum where the shoes are? There is a true taste of Human Rights. . .

Ok, so this is a conversation about opinions. It is ok to bring up facts in this conversation. It is a low blow, but look at these posts from K - whatever. . . It seems K - whatever is more interested in stirring up heat around here. Putting up a post about history of a country is uncalled for in this thread, then yes it needs to be closed. It may have been blantant and uncalled for, but look at K - Whatever. . . Those are also uncalled for posts. I see your concern here Vat, and I agree that this could turn sour. You have every right just like every other Admin, mod and member here at GTP not to stand for another flame war. I am unsure of Mile's post, but mine was out of sheer emotion. Do me favor then, because this is the reason why I posted my statement. Walk through the Holocaust museum for me if you never have. If you have then you will understand where I am coming from. The smell of that room put me in the bathroom because I had to puke after smelling the shoes saved from Aushawitz. It is disgusting that humans have done such things to each other in our history and I am ashamed to be a human because of it. Tell me now, would you have a similar reaction Vat? I have no problem if you do or don't I just want to put my post in perspective here.


Edit - The holocaust is an extrememly close issue with me, that is why I feel it is necessary for me to justify myself here.

 

[vat_man]

I appreciate your reaction, miata13b - I have quite a few close Jewish friends who lost relatives in the Holocaust. What happened in WW2 was and is horrific, and a dark stain not just on the Germany people but on humanity as a whole.

But K_Speed is a German student (well, according to his profile, anyway), and as such is most likely to have been born after WW2 and as such can not be held personally responsible for crimes committed by a portion of his country before his birth - please bear that in mind.

What you did was lash out before thinking - and there's already enough of that around on these boards.

What K probably inadvertantly did was reflect European opinion on this issue - if that's his opinion, from a country that's actually friendly to the US (despite other disagreements), just imagine the reaction in countries where the population is hostile to the US - which illustrates my point perfectly.

 

[ledhed]

Without a doubt the US has problems in the middle east and with most Arabs. They have a very incomplete and often twisted understanding of what America is and what it stands for. if you go to www.arabictimes.com and read the news as they see it , or read the english translation of the Arab news stations ,its not hard to see why. at any rate to get back on topic the people who live in Spain did not and do not support the war in Iraq. Most of Europe for whatever reason does not. Maybe finaly after all the years of killing off countless generations of their own youth and the youth of others , they just got tired of war period,, go figure. Spain for better or worse will be used as an example by all the nitwits that like to blow themselves up, that thier strategy to affect the policys of other countries, by terrorism, can be successfull. a small victory for them in a long war against all of the western countries, that they feel must be destroyed , or brought under Islamic controll to preserve what they feel is thier way of life, without the pesky western contaminations , of freedom , democracy , Playboy magazine and women drivers, to sway the pure Islamic traditions and whatever else thier smoking. its not like they have not been very vocal and honest about thier intentions. They just want us all dead, no big deal..they said it and keep saying it , I guess we won't believe them untill we see the color of their dynamite belts.. Anyway we seem to be busy dealing with our own guilt.. I mean they ambushed the convoy in Falluzia (sp) shot stabed and burnt to a crisp 4 american civilians draged the bodys through the street whilst they had a party and a picnic, then hung them from a bridge and video taped it.... so now some soldiers stuck a stick up a rebells butt and laughed at his wiggy and I guess I should care....I'll try , ( it WAS wrong). George w. Bush himself . is on arab T V telling the whole Mid East that justic will be done..hmmm when will the people who were dragged through the streets dead get justice ? I guess the Kurds who got gassed and the Iranians who got Invaded and the kuwaiti's who got raped and robbed and the Shiites in the mass graves gotta wait awile , we'll be busy now for a bit spankin some reservist..but don't worry there's still some justice left.
Maybe if they can just stop blowing themselves up for awile we can get around to it..
sorry for the rant but what happened in Spain and Spains reaction will no doubt be costing some poor fool or fools or just plain inocent child/adult/women/man thier life.
welcome to the new world order.

 

[K_Speed]

I appreciate your reaction, miata13b - I have quite a few close Jewish friends who lost relatives in the Holocaust. What happened in WW2 was and is horrific, and a dark stain not just on the Germany people but on humanity as a whole.

But K_Speed is a German student (well, according to his profile, anyway), and as such is most likely to have been born after WW2 and as such can not be held personally responsible for crimes committed by a portion of his country before his birth - please bear that in mind.

What you did was lash out before thinking - and there's already enough of that around on these boards.

What K probably inadvertantly did was reflect European opinion on this issue - if that's his opinion, from a country that's actually friendly to the US (despite other disagreements), just imagine the reaction in countries where the population is hostile to the US - which illustrates my point perfectly.

btw beautifully said (of course im gonna get dissed now, since im a coward)

yea just imagine the reaction.

 

[Duke]

Originally posted by K_Speed
But Im not going to put my oppinions on here, since they just going to be argued at or ignored. Its always the same thing.

Everybody has the right to have an opinion.

But the privelege of having your opinion taken seriously and respected comes with the responsibility to defend it rationally. If it is a well thought out, considered opinion, you should be able to do that easily.

If you can't defend it logically, it is not the questioner's fault and the problem does not lie with them.